Paladin Changes

[HungarianRhapsody]

(For fixing monk 2, the very first place to start is to make the form feats require monk levels instead of character levels. Then move the crit modifier from earth to fire.)

I really like the fact that you can take the form feats as character-feats because that adds a lot of flexibility and feats are expensive for most characters. I think that a better option would be to make more feats that are worth taking and get rid of many of the "filler" feats that we have now.

If done wrong, that would be pure power creep.
If done right, I think that could lead to some really nice build diversity where feat choices are real decisions instead of just being a list of "must get these" that every class tries to copy.

[Grace_ana]

None of those even approach the power of paladin 2 (cha mod to saves and strength) or monk 2 (evasion + grandmaster of earth).

The closest is rogue, who gets evasion, but a monk splash is clearly superior to rogue splash. The funniest example is fighter for two feats. Compare luck of heroes + great strength to paladin 2.

Evasion all on its own is powerful enough to be splashed all over the place and people feeling like they "need" it. A monk splash is not "clearly superior." I'd like to see you try to splash monk on a bard or barb. Rogue can be splashed on anything. Each has its benefits. And a fighter splash is very powerful on a feat-starved build. I'm pretty sure most people don't use it for luck of heroes. You can use it to free up enough slots for power attack/cleave/great cleave in order to get OC. That's a single example of many.

Also, pally saves are not the end all-be all. Much like evasion, they are good on some builds, but they aren't OP. A pally splash doesn't matter on a build that doesn't utilize enough charisma to matter. Evasion doesn't matter on a build that doesn't have a high enough reflex save. And the combination of 2 pally/2 monk is a fairly large investment that means you lose a core and a capstone from your primary class, as well as spells/DCs/feats/etc. It's only really beneficial on a handful of builds.

The builds that utilize it have no real choice because EE is ridiculous. As others pointed out, that is the problem. Changing divine grace doesn't encourage more pallies; it wrecks pally multiclassing, thereby driving more people away from any pally whatsoever.

It's not "no reason." There's a very good reason. In the current game, multiclassing options are hugely unbalanced. They need balancing.

Oh yeah, and it doesn't create balance either. You want to push people towards playing a class, make the class itself - including the capstone - something people want to play. Paladin already gets awesome saves. Everyone knows that. Changing divine grace doesn't give them better saves. So identify what is lacking for paladins, which is dps, armor/shield issues, and feats, and fix that. Then people play paladins.

[Scrabbler]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

Limiting the save bonus by Paladin level is something I suggested back when the level cap was 10.

It would've been clearly good then, but now it would be painful since so many characters have relied on Paladin splashes. However, if you do go ahead with it, remember that being in Divine Destiny should allow your Epic levels to also count for that purpose. So a Monk18/Pal2/Epic8 with Divine Crusader should get 2 + 3 x (2+8) = 32 charisma mod, more than enough.

[Seikojin]

Honestly, if capping a 2 splash to +8 makes a build broken completely (meaning you can't save 95% of the time with gear/stats/twists/enhancement), then it is a heavy nerf. However, I do not feel that will be the case. Every person crying out against the change to grace have yet to say how bad it would impact them. Most likely because it wouldn't impact them at all. If they went from +15 to all saves to +8, they lose 7. Is that loss suddenly autofail?

[Arlathen]

Honestly, if capping a 2 splash to +8 makes a build broken completely (meaning you can't save 95% of the time with gear/stats/twists/enhancement), then it is a heavy nerf. However, I do not feel that will be the case. Every person crying out against the change to grace have yet to say how bad it would impact them. Most likely because it wouldn't impact them at all. If they went from +15 to all saves to +8, they lose 7. Is that loss suddenly autofail?

Maybe not autofail, buts that's a -35% cut in making your Reflex save, in your example. That's a hell of a difference.

[kierg10]

Maybe not autofail, buts that's a -35% cut in making your Reflex save, in your example. That's a hell of a difference.

^^this.

[Grace_ana]

Honestly, if capping a 2 splash to +8 makes a build broken completely (meaning you can't save 95% of the time with gear/stats/twists/enhancement), then it is a heavy nerf. However, I do not feel that will be the case. Every person crying out against the change to grace have yet to say how bad it would impact them. Most likely because it wouldn't impact them at all. If they went from +15 to all saves to +8, they lose 7. Is that loss suddenly autofail?

A loss of 7, as in your example, is a huge, huge loss. Given the also huge damage sustained on save fails, that's going from a reasonably survivable build (not god status but with solid investments elsewhere and good gameplay can make it through an EE encounter) to lots of deaths. And as I already pointed out, if you read through the thread on armor changes, non-evasion pally splashes like sorcs get hit from all sides with this change. I mean, they can splash evasion instead of pally, but it won't make a difference if they can't get their saves up high enough to matter.

I really can't imagine how divine grace as is has become so gamebreaking in some people's minds. I have all of one toon with a pally splash for DG, and that toon is hardly immortal. There is definitely a balance problem, but that isn't it.

[pHo3nix]

Honestly, if capping a 2 splash to +8 makes a build broken completely (meaning you can't save 95% of the time with gear/stats/twists/enhancement), then it is a heavy nerf. However, I do not feel that will be the case. Every person crying out against the change to grace have yet to say how bad it would impact them. Most likely because it wouldn't impact them at all. If they went from +15 to all saves to +8, they lose 7. Is that loss suddenly autofail?

-7 on a d20 roll is -35% chance of success if you were exactly at 95% or less, so it's not autofail but it's a pretty big loss, so big that you could as well avoid splashing 2 pally and use those 2 levels for something more reliable and useful.

The funny thing is that i still can't understand how nerfing DG for splashes will suddenly make pure pallies more appealing: they will still suck, but instead of sucking if you only have the paladin icon, they will suck even as a splash. Only good thing going for them is the passive past life feat

[Arlathen]

I have a 2-pally splash with 50 Charisma. (Yes it's a Sorc)

Keeping my 2 levels of Pally gives me -12 and going to 4 Pally levels would still give me -6 to my current Saves. I'd have -12 based on your #1. Neither nerf seems acceptable based on the current state of EE content.

#4 would help, but you would also need to nerf down enemy DCs on stunning, tripping, etc.

#3 would help, but not enough since it would require an HTR to change your toon's race.



How about this as a suggestion - and many will not like it.

Go forward with the changes to Divine Might - 2 + (3 x Level), but allow it to be taken by FvS and Cleric at Level 2 or 4. (This wouldn't be Auto-granted, it would need to be taken as a chosen feat)

Of course this will never happen because "High Saves are what makes a Pally Great" even though they will still be the bottom of the barrel for EE content with the proposed changes.

Just to clarify, the combo suggestion around Divine Grace was meant to indicate that all 4 options should be pursued. Essentially, reduce the saves needed in EE content and buff other racial/class/enhancement Save options so that a Paladin 2 splash isn't automatically used by most EE characters to get realistic saves.

Nerfing Divine Grace on top of that might not even be needed if that was all done, but a heavy nerf for 'light splashes' means the Paladin 2 options isn't that much more valuable over grabbing another class that's already giving +3 saves from class levels, for example.

For example, what if:
- Luck of Heroes was buffed to give +3 to all saves?
- Epic Superior Luck feat was implemented, granting another stacking +3 to all saves?
- Lightning Reflexes / Iron Will / Great Fortitude we're buffed to give +4 to their respective save and allow an automatic saving throw pass on 19-20 instead of just a 20?
- Resilience feat grants a Saving throw bonus equal to Character Level/2 ?
- Epic Saving throw feats were also buffed up to +4?
- What if Half-Elf Paladin Dilletante Feat could grant +8 to all saves?
- Halfling Luck Enhancements were buffed to provide +5 total?
- Dwarf Runes went to +6 vs. Magical Effects?
- Insight bonus to Saves upto +4 was added to Yellow Augments?

Lots of ways to improve exisiting abilities in game without nerfing Divine Grace.

[Sebastrd]

I'm getting awfully tired of people in this thread jumping on the "nerf Divine Grace" bandwagon but offering no compelling reason for doing so. (No, "Divine Grace" is OP because it's a powerful splash is not a compelling argument.)

Divine Grace has been around for a long time, but only recently in DDO's history did we see it in so many builds. The design conceits of EE content have made Divine Grace necessary, because it is one of the few ways to achieve workable saves. Divine Grace and a Pally 2 splash are not unbalanced. The Content is unbalanced. When the Content makes sky-high saves optional rather than a necessity, you'll see the Pally 2 splash die off.

[thegreatneil]

The funny thing is that i still can't understand how nerfing DG for splashes will suddenly make pure pallies more appealing: they will still suck, but instead of sucking if you only have the paladin icon, they will suck even as a splash. Only good thing going for them is the passive past life feat

THIS^

This is the big problem I have with this it doesn't help a paladin.

MAKE BUFFS NOT NERFS!

[EllisDee37]

A loss of 7, as in your example, is a huge, huge loss. Given the also huge damage sustained on save fails, that's going from a reasonably survivable build (not god status but with solid investments elsewhere and good gameplay can make it through an EE encounter) to lots of deaths. And as I already pointed out, if you read through the thread on armor changes, non-evasion pally splashes like sorcs get hit from all sides with this change. I mean, they can splash evasion instead of pally, but it won't make a difference if they can't get their saves up high enough to matter.

I really can't imagine how divine grace as is has become so gamebreaking in some people's minds. I have all of one toon with a pally splash for DG, and that toon is hardly immortal. There is definitely a balance problem, but that isn't it.

I'm having trouble reconciling your two statements here.

Going from +15 saves to +8 saves is a "huge huge loss", yet having +15 in the first place isn't a big deal in terms of balancing character power?

[Grace_ana]

I'm having trouble reconciling your two statements here.

Going from +15 saves to +8 saves is a "huge huge loss", yet having +15 in the first place isn't a big deal in terms of balancing character power?

Explain please, in detail, how it balances character power.

[Arcanegrin]

The fact that you can't live without it is evidence that it's OP compared to splashing 2 of any other class.

Right now in the game, splashing 2 paladin is way OP compared to splashing 2 of anything else except monk, and splashing 2 monk is also way OP.

That's unbalanced.

This is correct, if you think its wrong see below.

If you don't think 2 monk or 2 paladin is OP then try making a barbarian or bard build that is great in EE content. It becomes quite a bit harder because you can't splash monk or paladin. Every time you get towards finishing a build you want to splash something and either paladin or monk are the best splashes you can add. This means something is wrong.

A comparison of the monk splash with 3 others, Limit for enhancement points is 6.

First off I'm going to introduce what a monk gets for 2 levels:
Going to use ocean form for comparison purposes. If your playing a str build then change it to something else.
2 levels of monk gets:[/B] Evasion, Ocean form: +2 wisdom, +3 saving throws, +2% dodge -2 str, AC bonus wisdom, +3 ac bonus, 4% dodge, +3 to all saves
From enhancements: 4 points ninja for +3% dodge, 2 point shintao for 10 positive and 5% healing amp, and 1 point for a heal skill
2 feats available. Lets say dodge and toughness
+3 saves to all

Total dodge gained: 12%
Hp at end game: 30
Saves: +6 fort saves, +6 will saves, +6 reflex saves

2 levels of Rogue gets: Evasion, 1d6 sneak attack, trapping (which requires large amounts of INT and DEX investment). Haste attack is available if you spend 11 points which is a significant enhancement investment.

From enhancements: 3 points assassin additional 1d6 sneak attack, 3 points mechanic +2 saves vs traps, +2 trapping skills

+0 fort saves
+3 reflex saves +2 reflex vs traps only
+0 will saves

Pros compared to monk:
Trapping
2d6 sneak attack
No centered requirement

Cons compared to monk:
30 less hp
12% less dodge
-6 fort saves
-1 reflex save vs traps, -3 reflex save vs spells
-6 will saves
No positive
No healing amp
-3 ac (not counting wisdom bonus)

2 levels of fighter gets: 2 feats for comparison purposes toughness and dodge, d10 hp for a tiny amount of more hp, +2 fort saves.
From enhancements: 4 points kensei for 5 action boosts of haste attack.
Maybe something else for remaining 2 points?

Pros compared to monk:
tiny bit more hp from d10
haste attack
No centered requirement

Cons compared to monk:
12% less dodge
-4 fort
-6 reflex
-6 will
No evasion
No positive
No healing amp
-3 ac (not counting wisdom bonus)

2 levels of ranger gets: rapid shot, 1 favored enemy, 2 weapon fighting, bow strength, +3 fort, +3 reflex

Enhancements: DWS 6 points for 2d6 sneak attack and 22 positive energy, or Tempest for 4 points and +3 reflex and +3 additional against traps.

For comparison purposes I'm going to assume monk took two weapon fighting and dodge as feats. I'm also going to say ranger got all above enhancements for 6 points even though that isn't possible.

Pros compared to monk:
+3 reflex saves vs traps
Rapid shot
1 favored enemy
bow str
2d6 sneak attack
11 positive energy
No centered requirement

Cons compared to monk:
No evasion
-3 fort
-3 will
No healing amp
12% less dodge
-3 ac

[Arcanegrin]

To compare the above to paladin just take a look at their saves. Without comparing monk which gives +6 to all saves for basically zero investment, the saves you get from a paladin are quite good.

One of my capped characters is sitting at a 33 charisma which is very easy to get, that's +11 to all save with no enhancement points.

The best from any of the above examples is ranger which would still require 3 enhancement points just to get to +6 reflex and a +9 reflex vs traps.

----



Take the examples above and try to find any combination where adding 2 splashes would net you the same as 2 levels of monk and 2 levels of paladin:

Just from saves with an easy cha of 33 you would be getting +17 to ALL SAVES.

[DaggomaticDwarf]

Sad, truly sad

[Arcanegrin]

In response to the actual thread about new paladins.

Overall sounds fun and that your on the right track.

The light damage could be very fun, it needs to scale similarly to the new bard enhancements. Either pos or radiance spell power. Positive spell power for the scaling would be pretty strong and would make me play a paladin sooner.

While your fixing paladins divine might on paladins needs to be changed to the same as clerics/fvs divine might and work with spell points, or make it a toggle to choose between turns or spell points. I'm guessing this was in there because divine might and saves was far too powerful. You should also cap divine might in the same was that paladin saves are capped. Either move divine might to tier 1 on paladins or to tier 2 on clerics.

I'm saying this even though I have a 18 bard, 1 fighter, 1 cleric build that relies on divine might for dps and stuns. I have more str then multi-tr barbarians.

[Monkey_Archer]

I'm getting awfully tired of people in this thread jumping on the "nerf Divine Grace" bandwagon but offering no compelling reason for doing so. (No, "Divine Grace" is OP because it's a powerful splash is not a compelling argument.)

Divine Grace has been around for a long time, but only recently in DDO's history did we see it in so many builds. The design conceits of EE content have made Divine Grace necessary, because it is one of the few ways to achieve workable saves. Divine Grace and a Pally 2 splash are not unbalanced. The Content is unbalanced. When the Content makes sky-high saves optional rather than a necessity, you'll see the Pally 2 splash die off.

Ok. I'll make the "correct" argument for why divine grace should be nerfed. The reason it needs to be nerfed is not because its OP, and its definitely not to encourage more paladin levels. The real reason it needs to be nerfed is because it completely breaks the D20 system.

Look at it this way: If a character needs +20 to saves from divine grace, that also means that without divine grace they would auto-fail. Saves don't work on a percentage basis, they use a D20. If a single ability is capable of providing a +20 bonus to a D20 check what this means is that at some point it either becomes mandatory or redundant. Either way its broken. Forcing all characters in the game to take 2 levels of a specific class just to get meaningful saves is straight up bad game design. Theres no way around that fact.

Does nerfing divine grace solve the EE saves problem? No of course not, but its not supposed to. Its merely one step to getting all classes on a slightly more level playing field so that further changes in the future might actually fix the real problem.

[EllisDee37]

Explain please, in detail, how it balances character power.

Here it is, in excrutiating detail:

Imagine you're building a melee character. Imagine the capstone is kinda crappy. Imagine you're now looking at splashing 2 levels of another class because your capstone stinks.

Okay, in this hypothetical situation, splashing 2 paladin or 2 monk (or both!) is way, way, way, way, way more attractive than splashing two levels of any other class.

That is unbalanced.

[DrawingGuy]

Personally I love the Divine Grace change - though I would go as far to say that I preferred the initial proposal of pal level*2 + 2 over the new *3. No, it's true that meant as an incentive for pure pally, as a pure pally would be able to get the full benefit anyways under the old system... but it helps reign in massive low hanging fruit power grabs. Giving up a capstone that is likely barely better than +2 to a stat to give me +10 to 20 to ALL of my saves on top of giving the ability to add the same to my STR? Just add Evasion, and suddenly I'm immune to everything except when I roll a one or the spell has an effect even when saved against (or, of course, has no save). The only way for that to not be true is if they were to build EE content against those kind of saves... by making it where not everyone in the game has it just with that bare splash, they can now balance against a group of classes rather than full pally saves. The proposed new formula already allows for massive save bonuses even with bare splashes... just it wouldn't be unlimited anymore.

The thing is, you should not HAVE to have 70+ saves to be able to handle EE content... but the fact that pure Pally gets that, it will have nice synergy with the proposed defense changes. Instead of needing to splash rogue/monk to get the benefit of their high reflex, they can go pure with full turtle, taking half damage due to high reflex followed by half or more negated again. Taking less than a quarter (or much less if it's an AOE spell) of spell damage (along with half no-save) would make Pally one of the sturdiest tanks able to just absorb physical (assuming PRR changes) and magical damage better than a fighter or any other class. Add in the proposed damage touches, and I see THOSE as items that would increase the Pally population. Though I don't think the goal should be able to make Pally comparable DPS to that of a Fighter tank - further buffs should be in the direction of more Lay on Hands, better smites, etc. in the strain of holy crusader rather than master of weapons and shields (aka not giving them more feats to be able to afford full lines like Fighters can).