Ability, Skill respecs, 32 point/drow unlocks.

[Borror0]

I suggest that players should not try to micromanage or tell other players how to build their character and....it's ok with you?

If I build a group, I might need a certain particular build.

If a non-KotC paladin applies and I need more DPS in the group, I will decline. It's not about micromanaging, it's about building your own group. If you are going to criticize that, then you might as well criticize everyone who refuse to do a raid without healers as the same logic applies.

If players have the ability to respec, and that non-KotC paladins wants to respec, then he just got a spot.

It's as much micromanagement as asking a battle cleric if he minds healing for that quest.

They are "adapting" to the whims of another player?

They are adapting to the need of the group.

[Quanefel]

If I build a group, I might need a certain particular build.

If a non-KotC paladin applies and I need more DPS in the group, I will decline. It's not about micromanaging, it's about building your own group. If you are going to criticize that, then you might as well criticize everyone who refuse to do a raid without healers as the same logic applies.

If players have the ability to respec, and that non-KotC paladins wants to respec, then he just got a spot.

It's as much micromanagement as asking a battle cleric if he minds healing for that quest.

They are adapting to the need of the group.

Adapting to the needs of the group? No, they are being told to adapt the the demands of that leader who will refuse them if their characters do not meet certian build type as opposed to now.

I am not all that suprised you would be ok with this, not suprised at all. Considering how I know how you view certian classes and builds. If others are willing to have someone like yourself tell them how exactly to build their character to YOUR specifications in order to join a raid or quest then that is on them for lacking a spine and telling you what they think of that. I know I'd never have a problem expressing my feelings on it would be.

Asking a battle cleric to heal is NOT anywhere near the same as TELLING him to repec out to be the build YOU want his character to be just to join a raid or quest. Asking for a certain class is one thing, forcing people to repec out their characters to fit a narrowly defined build type that you personally will lay out fir them is crossing the line.

Thanks for opening up and showing why you really want at will respecs.

[Borror0]

Adapting to the needs of the group? No, they are being told to adapt the the demands of that leader

Wrong. They are asked if they mind respeccing. It's not an order, there is no pressure.

Some people will mind, and other won't.

tell them how exactly to build their character to YOUR specifications

They are not told how to build their character. They are told what kind of character I need.

If I need more DPS for an hard raid, I will not want a S&B character for the DPS slot. I'll want a TWF or THF character. It only makes sense. Likewise, if I need an healer, I'll pick a cleric (and maybe a healing bard if I know he is good) but not a paladin. It only makes sense.

[Quanefel]

Wrong. They are asked if they mind respeccing. It's not an order, there is no pressure.

Some people will mind, and other won't.

And in asking, they will not be denied entrance to the group by that leader. No pressure means no denying them. Some people won't mind being told how to make their characters to suit the needs of the control freak leader, others very much will mind.

Really? They are not being told how to build their characters? So the leader is telling them to randomly respec out there character with no guildlines on the wishes of that leader? I think him telling that player HOW to respec into what he wants is exactly what it is.

[Borror0]

No pressure means no denying them.

Quanefel, do you run Shroud Elite runs with 12 S&B barbarians or are you a little more selective?

[Quanefel]

Quanefel, do you run Shroud Elite runs with 12 S&B barbarians or are you a little more selective?

You do know that people run the Shroud, any raid or quest with any combination of class, race or individual builds types on a daily basis? Wanting a perfect party is someone who loves to micromanage.


And by making respecs be "At will", someone who wants to micromanage will be able to do just that and alot easier than how it is in place now.

[Borror0]

You do know that people run the Shroud, any raid or quest with any combination of class, race or individual builds types on a daily basis?.

I challenge you to do the Shroud on Elite with only S&B players, and you will see that this is wrong.

The reason we are now able to not be picky is because we got uber gear. It was not so easy when the Shroud came out or when Vision of Destruction was the latest raid. I remember that we saw people on Ghallanda asking for mnemonic enhancers as an entry few (to make for the cleric's expenditure).

Furthermore, it is not because we have it easy now that it will stay that way forever.

In fact, if it stays that easy in the long run it means that the DDO developers will have failed.

And by making respecs be "At will", someone who wants to micromanage will be able to do just that and alot easier than how it is in place now.

False. If someone is picky, he will be as picky now than he was before.

No one is forced to comply. If they do mind respeccing, they'll just have to not join the group and find another/start their own.

[Quanefel]

I challenge you to do the Shroud on Elite with only S&B players, and you will see that this is wrong.

The reason we are now able to not be picky is because we got uber gear. It was not so easy when the Shroud came out or when Vision of Destruction was the latest raid. I remember that we saw people on Ghallanda asking for mnemonic enhancers as an entry few (to make for the cleric's expenditure).

Furthermore, it is not because we have it easy now that it will stay that way forever.

In fact, if it stays that easy in the long run it means that the DDO developers will have failed.

False. If someone is picky, he will be as picky now than he was before.

No one is forced to comply. If they do mind respeccing, they'll just have to not join the group and find another/start their own.

Uber gear is not why we do not have to be picky. There are many, many players that do not have Uber gear and probably won't yet, strange enough they can join groups with anyone and still be able to get in. Funny how that is. Running raids/quests naked I guess does not happen, correct? Is there no groups running quests/raids with only one class? Isn't there groups running quests/raids with all sub par characters just because?

Using Elite Shroud as some watermark to prove a point is a failure. Not many people are doing that and you very much know it, even so....not many tell that player he can not join because of anything really other than a class or level. People seem to do just fine with that system. Not nitpicking on each stat point, skill point spread, enchantements or PrE chosen. You want to make THAT possible. I say, no.

If someone is a micromanager now than it is not false that they will have a better ability to carry forth with those efforts when made easier for him by "at will" respecs.

No one is forced to comly yet you wrote that there was no pressure. I think pressure is true when denied entrance because a player did not give into the demands of a meglomanic party leader.

What's next, resumes on our characters before we are accepted?

[Borror0]

Using Elite Shroud as some watermark to prove a point is a failure. Not many people are doing that and you very much know it

That is totally irrelevant.

If I am going to run a hard quest in which party make up is important, I will request more or less DPS from my party members. As simple as that. That the Shroud Elite is not appealing to run is not important because that is a failure of the DDO developers: they failed to add incentive to bother running higher difficulty setting than normal.

Building an argument on a design flaw is ridiculous.

Not nitpicking on each stat point, skill point spread, enchantements or PrE chosen. You want to make THAT possible. I say, no.

Straw man. If you can see that the difference between a KotC and a DoS paladin is as big as two different classes, let me know.

when made easier for him

It is not made easier for him to micromanage.

No one is forced to comly yet you wrote that there was no pressure.

That sentence does not make any sense at all.

[Quanefel]

That is totally irrelevant.

If I am going to run a hard quest in which party make up is important, I will request more or less DPS from my party members. As simple as that. That the Shroud Elite is not appealing to run is not important because that is a failure of the DDO developers: they failed to add incentive to bother running higher difficulty setting than normal.

Building an argument on a design flaw is ridiculous.

Straw man. If you can see that the difference between a KotC and a DoS paladin is as big as two different classes, let me know.

It is not made easier for him to micromanage.

That sentence does not make any sense at all.

Yes it is relevant. You want to pick the most extreme example instead on the norm for a reason. Building an arguement around the most extreme example you could come up with quickly would be ridiculous.

Strawman? No. Just a word to toss out when confronted with something you do not want to discuss. The reality is those PrE's are not in game now and we can play just fine in any quest we want now. Adding them into the game does not change that nor make us unable to run quests or raids after they are added.

Adding in the ability to respec on a whim will make those micromanagers happier while make it unfun for everyone else when confronted with them telling them to respec out a certian, desired way of that party leader. I still say no to that.

I am sure it does not make sense or you simply do not want to admit that there IS pressure put on a player who either respecs how the leader wants or is denied entrance to that raid or quest. If there is no pressure than that player can come along without having to respec.

Either conform or no entrance, correct?

[Borror0]

You want to pick the most extreme example instead on the norm for a reason.

Of course there is a reason. I am proving that party selection can be important.

Simply because the game is ridiculously easy and do not encourage trying harder settings does not mean it will stay that way forever. In fact, it will probably not. Turbine will try to make harder settings more appealing. Maybe in Module 9, if not later.

At that point, party make up will be important.

You want to pick the most extreme example instead on the norm for a reason.

Of course. I would not bother being picky for Shroud on normal, but I would certainly be for Elite.

The former is a cake walk while the later is hard and unwelcoming for weaker builds.

Strawman? No. Just a word to toss out when confronted with something you do not want to discuss.

If you don't see how ridiculously different a DoS and a KotC are, then you know nothing about the game.

The former has three times the survivability of the latter but less than half of the DPS. The differnce between classes is smaller than that. If you are ok with differentiation between classes, then you should not mind differentiation between PrE.

If you are going to try something hard, building your party correctly is important.

Otherwise, might as well say that bringing a cleric (in a party of fleshy) is not important and that we can complete any quest without healing.

Adding them into the game does not change that nor make us unable to run quests or raids after they are added.

It will and the fact that you pretend otherwise is hilarious. PrE will push us in further specialization meaning that different builds will be further different.

KotC and DoS will increase the DPS between tanks and DPS, therefore it will change something.

Adding in the ability to respec on a whim will make those micromanagers happier while make it unfun for everyone else when confronted with them telling them to respec out a certian, desired way of that party leader. I still say no to that.

It does not make it easier to have their ways, unless you mean that it will be easier to fill groups. But, that is a good thing!

If you don't want to respec, you will say no. Period. It ends there.

If there is no pressure than that player can come along without having to respec.

If you define pressure in a very twisted way, you are right.

It will be appealing to the player to respec to be able to find a group easier, if he does not mind respeccing.

[Quanefel]

Of course there is a reason. I am proving that party selection can be important.

Simply because the game is ridiculously easy and do not encourage trying harder settings does not mean it will stay that way forever. In fact, it will probably not. Turbine will try to make harder settings more appealing. Maybe in Module 9, if not later.

At that point, party make up will be important.

Of course. I would not bother being picky for Shroud on normal, but I would certainly be for Elite.

The former is a cake walk while the later is hard and unwelcoming for weaker builds.

If you don't see how ridiculously different a DoS and a KotC are, then you know nothing about the game.

The former has three times the survivability of the latter but less than half of the DPS. The differnce between classes is smaller than that. If you are ok with differentiation between classes, then you should not mind differentiation between PrE.

If you are going to try something hard, building your party correctly is important.

Otherwise, might as well say that bringing a cleric (in a party of fleshy) is not important and that we can complete any quest without healing.

It will and the fact that you pretend otherwise is hilarious. PrE will push us in further specialization meaning that different builds will be further different.

KotC and DoS will increase the DPS between tanks and DPS, therefore it will change something.

It does not make it easier to have their ways, unless you mean that it will be easier to fill groups. But, that is a good thing!

If you don't want to respec, you will say no. Period. It ends there.

If you define pressure in a very twisted way, you are right.

It will be appealing to the player to respec to be able to find a group easier, if he does not mind respeccing.

Picking the most extreme example is still not correct. Can be important or IS important? All bard shroud runs say you are wrong BorrorO. Lighting Strike Shroud runs say you are wrong. Naked quest runs say you are wrong. Unless the only Shrouds being run on Elite than you may have something but since they are not, you are wrong.

Yes, the game as of now is easier. I think though that quest scaling in mod 9 is not any indication that Turbine is going to steer the game to being harder for us. Unless we pretend that is not being added, then maybe you will have something but I know differently.

Building a party a certian way is only important to some, it is not neccassary.

And in case you did not know, plenty of people run things without a cleric. One is desired but not that important.

So you find something hilarous that I was not even saying? Normal. Regardless those PrE's still do not exist in game and we can play and get into groups just fine now. Adding them in game won't change that. If Turbine was to not add them in game ever, we will still be able to get into groups even then. Maybe go back and reread what I actually wrote.

It is a good thing to fill up groups from the demands of one person leading a party? No. Flat out no. Maybe you are ok with being told how to make your character but I think there just might be some not willing to be told what to do. Of course, if a person enjoys being a micromanager, they will never understand how others could object to that. It is making it easier to include a means so they can tell others to respec out much easier than it is now. You just won't admit it. Easier for a meglomanic to fill groups better is not a good thing.

Twisted way to look at the idea of "pressure", eh? If there are very strict build designs by a party leader and they want a player to respec out to his needs or that player is not allowed in is PRESSURE. Maybe to someone like you who does not understand that you have no right to tell other players how to build their chracters, then I can see why you do not understand that.

If a person does not mind being told how to remake their characters then it is not an issue. But those with a bit more spine will say no to it and not go along with it. But their fun is not as important than a meglomanic party leader to get his way. I am sure it would be much easier if NO one objected to this, then there are individual players who might, just might resist that. Don't you think? Their fun can be ruined because of one person and to you...that is ok? And what if that party leader has no idea what he is talking about? Those who do give in have their chracters redesigned at the whims of someone who has no clue what he is talking about? Unless we are to assume each party leader makes perfect builds and is not a flat out idiot.

And I will ask again, does everyone joing a group after this "at will" respec have to submit a resume to any party leader before being allowed to join? Will that party leader also pay the cost of the respec FOR that player wanting to join? Is he also willing to pay the monthly subscription fee for those players if he THINKS he has the right to tell another player how to make his characters?

[Angelus_dead]

Wrong. They are asked if they mind respeccing. It's not an order, there is no pressure.

Some people will mind, and other won't.

Story time: Just after mod5 came out, I witnessed a scary shouting match between a guild leader and a cleric who didn't want to respec to Quicken.

[Borror0]

Picking the most extreme example is still not correct. Can be important or IS important?

I don't need to be picky when it comes to running Elite STK with my level 20 sorcerer. I might need to be a bit more selective when it comes to running Elite STK on my level 1 untwinked character with new players and a no spoiler policy.

Quanefel, your position is indefensible.

If you are talking about a quest that is so easy party make up is irrelevant, than why should anyone micromanage or why would you want to play with someone who micromanages? Don't join the group, accept the twelve first players who click the LFM and get going.

However, if the quest is hard, party make up does matter.

Building a party a certian way is only important to some, it is not neccassary.

If you do care about success, some quests will require a stricter recruiting policy.

[Quanefel]

I don't need to be picky when it comes to running Elite STK with my level 20 sorcerer. I might need to be a bit more selective when it comes to running Elite STK on my level 1 untwinked character with new players and a no spoiler policy.

Quanefel, your position is indefensible.

If you are talking about a quest that is so easy party make up is irrelevant, than why should anyone micromanage or why would you want to play with someone who micromanages? Don't join the group, accept the twelve first players who click the LFM and get going.

However, if the quest is hard, party make up does matter.

If you do care about success, some quests will require a stricter recruiting policy.

That is assuming every quest or raid now or in future mods will ONLY be run on elite.

STK Elite on a level 20? Right..............o.O

Stick to the norm, not the extreme.

Party make-up on hard quests might matter but NOT every aspect of each character that joins. Tell people how to make their characters as you play is a sure fire way for a person to find themselves on a "list" real quickly.

When should we start filling out our resumes?

[Borror0]

That is assuming every quest or raid now or in future mods will ONLY be run on elite.

Incorrect. That is assuming that there will be hard quests and that some will be interested in running these.

This is all the assumption that it takes for what I said to be true.

Party make-up on hard quests might matter but NOT every aspect of each character that joins.

Never, ever did I ever mention that every aspect should be dictated.

However, if the party needs more DPS, it makes sense that the paladin should be spec for Defender of Siberys as that is a tanking PrE.

[Kistilan]

*taps the mic*

Is this thing on?

Hello, we have a thread devoted to this sort of fillabustering already. I implore all parties to resurrect That Which Has No Life if this is what must be done, but please... I implore you all involved... separate the discussions between:

A: 28 to 32 pt conversion ideas

B: Full Character/Partial Character Respec Ideas

I mean I know That Which Has No Life has a lot of flaming and 1-liners too, but there's like what, 5,000 posts in there already concerning the same things, gett'n rehashed? Let's at least keep up with the consolidation of all this arguement in one thread.

[Quanefel]

Incorrect. That is assuming that there will be hard quests and that some will be interested in running these.

This is all the assumption that it takes for what I said to be true.

Never, ever did I ever mention that every aspect should be dictated.

However, if the party needs more DPS, it makes sense that the paladin should be spec for Defender of Siberys as that is a tanking PrE.

The average quest or raid is run on normal, not elite. Trying to suggest otherwise is false.

Every aspect is not being dictated? I am thinking that asking someone to change out a PrE is not some simple process or even desired by the person playing that character. I am under the impression that changing out any PrE to suit the needs of some random player involves meeting the requirements for that new PrE.

If we change out a PrE within one class, does that not require us to change out some feats and enchantments? I think the answer is a resounding yes. If my gear and playstyle is also tied into the PrE that I have decided on, is that party leader willing to pay for new equiptment on the spot if it is needed for a new PrE decided upon by that party leader?

Is that party leader also willing to pay the fee for all the respecs associated for each of the 11 other players in a raid or the 5 other players in a quest prior to starting? Will he further pay for those players respecs as needed afterwards to bring them back to where they were before joing that group as well?

Are we to further assume that the party leader has any idea what he is even talking about with other players builds? Are we to have blind faith that party leader knows whats best for US? Are all players willing to wait it out for everyone made to change out their chracters with respecs to fit the needs of the person with the star? Is any player from that point being allowed a choice in their own build or do certian select players get to decide what we play and how we make our own characters?

Who left these people in charge of our accounts? Are they willing to pay for our accounts so they can have say in what we do with our characters?

Maybe it is true that to you it makes sense for a player to remake their paladin from one PrE to DoS but...you are not paying for their account, are you? Why should the respec cost in fees to leveed on the person being made to change and not the person who demands it? To you, this is all just gravy?

[eonfreon]

*taps the mic*

Is this thing on?

Hello, we have a thread devoted to this sort of fillabustering already. I implore all parties to resurrect That Which Has No Life if this is what must be done, but please... I implore you all involved... separate the discussions between:

A: 28 to 32 pt conversion ideas

B: Full Character/Partial Character Respec Ideas

I mean I know That Which Has No Life has a lot of flaming and 1-liners too, but there's like what, 5,000 posts in there already concerning the same things, gett'n rehashed? Let's at least keep up with the consolidation of all this arguement in one thread.

Lol
Yeah, but I'm still interested in this one.
I think A: 28 to 32 has been discussed amply IMO.
My Feeling about it?
Most like SOME way to improve that particular aspect.
Now it's as up in the air as anything is in DDO at the moment.

The rest of the stuff?
Yeah "they're" (you know qho I mean) still at it and it's gone on to respecs and at-will and what-have-you.

But I still feel more has actually been discussed in this one than in most I've seen of late.
This has merits all it's own, although maybe too many different topics all in one.

"RESPEC" is a very very loaded term.

[Azdraugnor]

The average quest or raid is run on normal, not elite. Trying to suggest otherwise is false.

The average LEVEL SIXTEEN quest or raid is run on normal, not elite. Don't forget lower level characters, who are often newer players who have damaged their character by building them improperly.