Suggestion on family DDO party

[Tetsuo-]

Hello everyone. I would like to get some suggestion on a party make up build and suggestions. Hello everyone. I would like to get some suggestion on a party make up build and suggestions. I used to play table version AD&D 2nd ed many many years ago. I now have 3 young teenagers. The queen of the family due to the things happing in the USA with guns will not allow them play FPS games. We watched stranger things on netflix as a family one night and I recall how much fun I had with AD&D. I remember I tried DDO maybe 13 years ago? But so much have changed and I really do not even recall much.
I would like some suggestion on a 4 people party, I am guessing healer is a must, a caster, a thief (maybe since I see traps and locks), and tank? My issue is how to build each of the character? I know from memory that there is no point putting high wis into a wizard and things like that. But I do not know how much points to put into each stat or what feats to take.
If someone can point out maybe a step by step on what to take that would be a great help. I would hate to find that later on that we have picked useless feats, like letting that high wisdom wizard wear heavy armor.
Thank you.

[C-Dog]

... I used to play table version AD&D 2nd ed many many years ago...

K, first off - and sorry for those who have seen this before - DDO is NOT like any other "Edition" of D&D that you've ever played!

Even with vast tabletop experience, it's very easy to create a DDO build that looks strong on paper, starts out strong and soon completely fails - and nobody wants that!

So, you're correct to ask, and specific, detailed builds will be suggested - follow those, and you're good to go.

Hokay, that out of the way...

I would like some suggestion on a 4 people party, I am guessing healer is a must...

Meh, in part parallel to the above, you'd guess wrong.

Many classes are now self-healing, in one form or another. A dedicated party Healer is definitely not needed, except in some Raids and special circumstances. It can prove nice to have, but there is plenty of room for a "healer-class blaster" or a "combat-focused healer", who covers that as a side focus. 2-hand maul-wielding clerics can give pure Fighters a run for their money and still be ample healers. Crossbow clerics of doom ftw.

Similarly, Tanks are not needed except in some raids; again, can be handy, but if these players are new, the role and playstyle of a Tank may be both too demanding and unsatisfying.

(If you, as the sole experienced player, want to shoulder the task, there are some Healer/Tank builds that exist, so you yourself could do double duty and take the bad-guy's focus off the party while you toss out any necessary healing. These tend to have VERY little damage-ability of their own, being designed simply to withstand punishment, so can exist ONLY in static parties like you are planning.)


A good party does need a "Trapper", but there are 3 classes now that provide access to that - Rogue, Artificer (a non-F2P class) and Dark Hunter (a Ranger variant). More, in DDO, you only need 1 (initial) level of a Trapping class and enough Skill Points, and then you can go be any other class mix you want! So, again, shake off "Traps = Rogue" - in DDO, it's just not true. Wizards make some of the best trappers in DDO (due to high Int!).

(Note also that if you are not 100% sure about attendance, it might be a good idea to have a designated "back up" trapper - not hard to do.)


I think the first step is to do a soft poll of your players and, generally (and without shoe-horning them into "a class") ask them what sort of playstyle/character they might like? Ranged (bow or crossbow?), big axe/sword, 2-fast blades, caster-blaster, caster-tricksy (charms, holds), druid-shapeshifter (caster or brawler), warlock constant-blaster (very newbie friendly), monkish fists of doom (monk or paladin, btw!)... something else?

If they have a favorite fantasy character, something can probably be cobbled together to give that same feel. DDO is surprisingly flexible in that sense.

The only thing to emphasize is that players don't need - and don't want - to worry about TWO (or more) different combat styles for their damage. Pick Melee, Ranged or Caster* - end of discussion. Anyone can pick up a bow and pew pew, but no one needs to worry about also being "good" at a bow if they are a melee or a caster. Similarly, if you are good at a bow (or crossbow), you too can go full Legolas and fire point-blank at enemies without worrying about pulling a melee weapon. Each character should focus only on what they are good at, and simply not worry about things they are not good at - that's for someone else to be good at.

(* this is for damage - if they want to cast "some" spells, for party buffs/healing etc, that's easily dovetailed in with one of the other 3 combat forms.)


(Edit - Also... are these players going to be Free-to-Play, or VIP? It matters which specific classes/races/bells and whistles they will have access to. )

[Nebless]

I would like to get some suggestion on a party make up build and suggestions.

To make sure your teen's get the most out of the game / want to keep playing - just sit down with them and go over the differrent classes they could play. Decide if you're going to play F2p or are willing to invest some money to buy access to the non-f2p classes.

Yes a theif will be really useful. Beyond that you could add almost anything. As far as normal content goes you can get away with healing potions vice a healer, but sit down and see what THEY want to play.

My issue is how to build each of the character?

At lot of EXPERIENCED players poo-poo the idea, but you really can just use the stock character stats for the classes, especially here with a bunch of people that don't really know the whole D&D build a character stuff. The stock stats will let them use all that classes basic stuff be it healing, trapping or what not and let them get into the game.

Also let THEM make their characters choices, not YOU. That way it's THEIR character. Sure they might screw up and gimp themselves, but it's a learning process and like 99% of players trash their first character anyway since it's a learning experience.

[Xgya]

Also let THEM make their characters choices, not YOU. That way it's THEIR character. Sure they might screw up and gimp themselves, but it's a learning process and like 99% of players trash their first character anyway since it's a learning experience.

I'll parrot in on this one.

Plus, making new characters is easy and accessible enough, resetting AP costs measly platinum, a resource you'll soon learn is very easy to come by, and every new character comes with a free +0 lesser heart in their inventory that lets them re-make their choices all over again for everything except class levels.

About those class levels: one tip I'll give to any newcomer wannabe is stick to one class. While multiclass builds are available and can be very fun if you know what you're doing, they add an extra layer of complexity without necessarily adding power.

[C-Dog]

At lot of EXPERIENCED players poo-poo the idea, but you really can just use the stock character stats for the classes...

<puts on his poo-poo hat>

No, you really can't, because a lot of them SUCK - plain and simple.

If a new player wants to just gimp along doing Hard, sure - but that's not what this group sounds like it's looking for.

Also let THEM make their characters choices, not YOU. That way it's THEIR character. Sure they might screw up and gimp themselves, but it's a learning process and like 99% of players trash their first character anyway since it's a learning experience.

... which is what the OP specifically stated he did NOT want...

I would hate to find that later on that we have picked useless feats, like letting that high wisdom wizard wear heavy armor.

Which is the fatal flaw in many of the "stock" builds (not that specifically, but close enough - pew, light a match! ).


With many builds there is room for customization - that maybe can be worked into the mix. But these are not characters to be lightly "trashed" as separate players decide to start over, it's a static group - what if ~Level 8 two players' builds fail, but the other two work great? what then???

Just... no. Vet Player-designed, forum-approved builds are what is wanted here. If I'm reading the OP correctly.

[Seph1roth5]

While it's a good idea to let them make their classes (duh), there are a few guidelines that will help everything flow smoothly while not forcing them to play certain classes. For example, my 3 friends and I made a team of all horizon walkers (bow shooters), it was awwwwwwwful.

1: Someone up front. This can be someone tanky like a shield-wearing paladin/fighter, someone with a lot of HP and damage like barbarian or also-paly. Or, assuming you have some heals, anyone up front will do. You basically want someone to charge in first and get the aggro, and have enemies target them first so your squishier people are safe and you have less healing to worry about.

2: Crowd Control: There's tons of options here. Almost every class can do cc well. Some are crazy good at it like bard or (depending on spells) wizard/sorc. But anyone with feydark can throw out lots of color sprays as well. They don't have to ONLY do cc, they can also do dps, but it's super helpful to start a big mob by blinding/holding/tripping/whatever-ing them.

3: Some healing capability. Like cc, you don't need someone whose sole job is to heal, and you can always just use hirelings if you really want to, but since you're all new, some healing will definitely make things better. Lots of classes can heal, even a ranger (probably the worst out of all the classes that have heals) is usually enough to keep people topped off, and it's not like they have a ton of spells to throw around.

4: For new people I'd say a trapper here, if you don't have one already. Vets know where all the traps are and can avoid a lot of them, or know which can be survived, but you won't really have that advantage. A rogue of some sorts (can be up front with a quarterstaff) will be able to spot and disable traps before you all go walking into death.

Other: Definitely want to have SOME ranged damage, whether it's spells or just someone that doesn't suck with a bow (either dex-based or in a class that can use another stat to hit/damage for their weapon).


Some really good options, especially for new peoples:

1: Bard. I freaking love bard spellsinger lol. They have really good crowd control, great dps, tons of buffs, and can heal. They're awesome at breaking things too!

2: Paladin: Paladins get very good spells to buff themselves. A 2-handed weapon paly will be high dps, and they have great saves and defenses. Intimidate can be used to keep wandering enemies off your squishies too. A shield using paladin is incredibly tanky, but not much dps. Paladins have a little healing, but it can save people in combat with lay on hands easy.

3: Warlock: For someone that doesn't want to worry about SP management, warlocks are pretty good, and they have a few variations on their eldritch blast so you can be up close, medium, or long ranged and still be good. They also have a very good defensive build in enlightened spirit, but doesn't really get going til lv 12 or so. Very hard to kill an ES warlock, they can easily fulfill the up front role...eventually.

Now this is all for newish people, the OP specifically, not talking about advice for vets or people wanting to do r4 or anything.

[Scrag]

Play test some things you all find interesting. Run on casual (SUPER easy) or normal, until you get a feel for whats going on.

Once you get that feeling, create your more permanent character(s) that combine things people in the playgroup liked.

We have a super tame, toxic free forum, so the older teens should have no problem browsing threads for ideas as long as they stay out of bits like off topic or something.

Virtually nothing will make sense your first time out, so rather than committing a lot of time to a first character that will definitely have flaws, just use the time as experience generating.

Also:

https://ddowiki.com/page/Newbie_guide

[Tetsuo-]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. My boys have never played anything like DDO before. They are all into "call of duty" on the play stations FPS type of games. I will be opening F2P accounts for them here. I recall about 13-14 years ago when I tried DDO I purchased few adventure packs, not idea what I purchased. Maybe because the younger kids these days do not play games on the PCs. So DDO will be totally new experience for them. They started by asking where is the controller? I told them via the mouse and keyboard, the shock on their faces. side note, the graphic on DDO seems very dated? I have the setting on very high and the graphic is nothing compared to the play station games they play now, is this because DDO is an older game?

So back to the main topic, they will be all F2P maybe after few months and if they like the game I will buy them all some adventure packs. I do recall when I did play a raid years ago maybe it was in giant hold? or some quest where there is a part you have to swim under water. I remember some of the experienced players were not so friendly as newer player did not know where to go or died and caused the whole team to lose XP. I do hope people are more friendly now.

[C-Dog]

For example, my 3 friends and I made a team of all horizon walkers (bow shooters), it was awwwwwwwful.

But conceptually it was strong.

1: Someone up front...
...(etc.)...

Solid approach and suggestions, although even then not 100% mandatory. But applying such might give a party template and help establish the cooperative interaction of a good party mix for new players, where everyone has a clear "role" and job to aim to fill.

And note that a "tanky" character is diff from a dedicated "tank" - the latter tends to have no function other than to suck up damage, while there are many high-durability builds that only sacrifice a little for being much tougher.

Some really good options, especially for new peoples:

1: Bard.

2: Paladin:

3: Warlock:

Solid suggestions.

I'd add to the newbie-friendly list Barbarian for raw melee damage output, Rogue for ranged X-bow hammering (or sneaky melee attacks? is that newbie friendly?), and Ranger for either ranged fun or 2-weapon slice-and-dice. (Rangers are a little squishy, but can cast buff spells (including back-up healing), so fill that "semi-spellcaster" vibe quite nicely.) Also Sorcerer for pure casting/blasting*, altho' Sorcies are very squishy and so require some protecting from the party and/or a strong sense of self-preservation from the player.

(* Myself, I find Sorcies much simpler for new players than a Wizard, which can have an overwhelming variety of spell options to choose from. Sorcies tend to have a simple rotation of death, with (typically) the single option of one Crowd Control spell.)

Bards can be either spellcasters (mesmerizing/dazing their targets) or single-weapon duelists, and are one of the few exceptional classes that can actually do both well (tho', as a new player, one OR the other should probably be the focus, as gearing for both could become burdensome).

Warlocks are "the easy button" for new players. Their style of damage is unique, as if small medium-range blasting spells were continuously coming out of their hands (at no Spell Point cost!) while they cast Web/etc. for crowd control. Pow-pow-pow, pow-pow-pow! And, as mentioned, they have a sort of unlimited self-healing that makes them VERY hard to kill (part of which can extend to party members, depending!)

Btw - The "trapper" role can be covered (of course) by a Rogue, either as a Crossbow ranged threat, a quarter staff tripping build (more crowd control), or a 2-dagger assassin (which requires "Stealth", which is a little squirrely in the game atm). Going multiclass, the role dovetails nicely with either Ranger (either dodgy or heavy variant, and either ranged or 2-weapon, discussed prev) or Wizard (yes, works great!), both classic combos in DDO. (New-player Bards can also be trappers, but they lose ~a little~ on Crowd-Control, which is may not be something you want "a little less reliable"... and it can get a bit complex in build and play. Ymmv.)

3: Some healing capability. Like cc, you don't need someone whose sole job is to heal, and you can always just use hirelings if you really want to, but since you're all new, some healing will definitely make things better. Lots of classes can heal

Another good point - Hireling Healers are perfect for topping up a bruised party after a fight. They can cast every spell a Player "healer class" can cast. What they really can't do very well is survive a tough fight*, so you ~probably~ want some kind of "in-party, in-combat healing".

(* Typically, Hireling healers are parked somewhere safe and left behind the party (quest entrance, or the last shrine you found), summoned up to the party when needed to do their job after a fight, then parked again, repeatedly. Takes a little practice to keep them parked safely, but very doable. Using them ~in~ a fight tends to get them killed - and then who raises them? )

Play test some things you all find interesting. Run on casual (SUPER easy) or normal, until you get a feel for whats going on.

Once you get that feeling, create your more permanent character(s) that combine things people in the playgroup liked.

Great suggestion. A little investment in the game, actually playing a little of a class (instead of guessing how it will play), will go a looong way to guaranteeing a good fit for the "real" character.

For instance, a player who wants "a caster" might prefer the versatility of a Wizard over the mere blasting of a Sorcerer - or they might find the complexity and choices of a Wiz overwhelming, and prefer that simple blasting. Similarly with your "trapper" - LOTS of ways to go toward that end. Possible that someone will not love their choice of race ("I just don't like how it looks!"), or start to have envy for a different combat style or in-combat ability.

There are good reasons to run up to 100 Favor on every Server*, and trying out a couple/few different builds will get each account toward the free DDO Points that they might want to buy some of the "recommended" bells and whistles. This is more important if you are F2P, but finding out if you like the game as F2P is a good litmus test to determine whether a player should invest in VIP. 100 Favor is Level 4 (on Elite), and that can be done in a single evening without much trouble.

(* 100 Favor is easy, and the FIRST TIME any account gets 100 on any server = 125 DDO Points, for each server. There are 8 total, so that's a possible quick and easy 1,000 DP.)

[marinersfan]

I remember some of the experienced players were not so friendly as newer player did not know where to go or died and caused the whole team to lose XP. I do hope people are more friendly now.

Xp rules are different now, no xp penalty for others in the group when you die. Just the dead person loses the bonus. I haven't seen people get mad about a "noob death" in years, and I do play with random folks (albeit not much time to play these days). Most playing the game are 10+ years older now, and have mellowed with age somewhat.

Some groups will leave you in the dust if you don't know where to go, but often it seems at least one person is willing to help guide. Plenty of quests I don't know well yet and I find it's helpful to announce in group "I don't know this quest too well" before starting.

As far as group composition, lots of choices! I'd say pick the 4 that appeal to each person.
1) trapper - rogue, artificer, new ranger subtype
2) cc/heal/damage - bard
3) melee - barbarian or paladin, maybe wizard (little more complicated for new players?)
4) healer? Cleric or druid (may not need depending on how the bard wants to play, and if you also have a paladin). Favored soul is an option too, but maybe not free to play??
5) ranged DPS - xbow rogue, ranger, artificer (easily could overlap with trapper)
6) spell dps - sorc, druid
7) warlock...seem good, and simple to play. never have played one so no specific advice here

If I was making a 4 man team of new players I think I'd lean for the first 3: assassin rogue, spellsinger or stormsinger bard, and paladin with a 2 handed weapon. The 4th character is harder to choose...maybe a druid for some healing and spell damage. A simple ranger wouldn't be a bad starter toon either. I think the 4th slot depends what the bard decides to focus on

[Nebless]

No, you really can't, because a lot of them SUCK - plain and simple.

If a new player wants to just gimp along doing Hard, sure - but that's not what this group sounds like it's looking for.

Interesting since I've played all the free classes, ran them through Elite dungeons, played on the Hardcore servers etc... all on stock builds and never seemed to have had the problems you do.

[C-Dog]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. My boys have never played anything like DDO before. They are all into "call of duty" on the play stations FPS type of games.

If FPS, they might find "ranged" builds more familiar? Those at least are 3rd-person/ "over the shoulder" shooters.

Or they might enjoy the change of pace of a melee - you know them better than us.

Dig up a couple vids on gameplay to show them, lots on Youtube.

side note, the graphic on DDO seems very dated? I have the setting on very high and the graphic is nothing compared to the play station games they play now, is this because DDO is an older game?

Sad but all true. Old engine at this point, it's been noted before and often.

So back to the main topic, they will be all F2P maybe after few months and if they like the game I will buy them all some adventure packs.

At the moment, there are some GREAT 99 DP sales - almost give-aways. Don't know if the Code is still valid, but the Sales have been extended (but not for long?).

o https://www.ddo.com/news/ddo-free-dungeoncrawl

I do recall when I did play a raid years ago... I remember some of the experienced players were not so friendly as newer player did not know where to go or died and caused the whole team to lose XP. I do hope people are more friendly now.

As mentioned, the rules on XP have changed, and this dynamic no longer exists. And, yes, some players got very bitter about their xp.

... I've played all the free classes... all on stock builds and never seemed to have had the problems you do.

First, I have to ask - why? And why did you bother on HC?

Anyway - sure, some do work, some (few) are actually solid, but (again) "a lot of them suck". And either way, they are black-box, the player has zero understanding of what they are and how they were built, which is another strike against them.

And btw - having run all the classes isn't relevant here unless you've 1) run them as completely new and naked starting accounts (which can happen in HC), and also 2) run them as a new player, blind to the builds and the game itself. Because that is the context of this discussion. (and I 'm comfortable assuming that your experience doesn't match up with that. )

[Nebless]

First, I have to ask - why? And why did you bother on HC? :

Because you can. The game was built to be played via those stock characters and not everyone is obsessed with having THE perfect build. Some of us just come to run dungeons, level up and have fun.

And just because YOU think a build is prefect, doesn't mean I will. Nor will your play style be the same as mine, so again while it might work for you, doesn't mean it will for me.

And btw - having run all the classes isn't relevant here unless you've 1) run them as completely new and naked starting accounts (which can happen in HC), and also 2) run them as a new player,

Well they're all on different servers so no hand me downs or anything else to help them. And while I might not be a new player, each class is new to me and plays different so there is a newish factor there.

The plain truth is you CAN play the game using the stock characters. This whole mind set that you shouldn't think for yourself and instead you HAVE to follow someone else who may or may not even know what he's talking about is a bunch of bull.

If you want to google builds to help you, that's cool, go for it, but don't expect everyone else to do it too.

[marinersfan]

Nor will your play style be the same as mine, so again while it might work for you, doesn't mean it will for me.

Agree completely, everyone plays differently and has a different idea of fun. The tone from OP is that they're wanting guidance to make sure all 4 characters are good.

The plain truth is you CAN play the game using the stock characters. This whole mind set that you shouldn't think for yourself and intead you HAVE to follow someone else who may or may not even know what he's talking about is a bunch of bull.

I'm confused a little. Are you using the pre-built trees, or are you picking the class you want and choosing your own feats? If you mean you're making characters as "pure 20 fighter" but making your own build decisions with regards to feats, that's a different build than what's being referred to as "stock characters". If you're using the "pre-built" characters supplied by DDO, those are the most cookie-cutter builds around? Those stock characters were designed like 20 years ago and a lot has changed...a little bit of effort will result in a much stronger character.

If you're unable to play the game on your own and have to google builds to help you, that's cool, go for it, but don't expect everyone else to do it too.

The OP was asking for advice on making a solid 4 person team. Generally speaking, you can build much stronger characters with some initial guidance, and it'll also help you learn the game better.

[Nebless]

I'm confused a little.

When I said Stock, I meant just picking say Rogue > Dark Blade > Elf > .... > hit play without going advanced and changing any of the inital stats or abilities. I used the full 'term' eariler when I said stock character stats.

[marinersfan]

He is, but my take on it and as I said in my initial reply; Let the kids create their own characters and if they mess up, that's OK. The alternate at the exterme end is HE creates the 4 characters, builds them as others have said and then it comes down to him inviting his kids to come play one of HIS 4 characters and also tells them they have to play them HIS way since that's how he built them. I honestly doubt you'd see the kids come back for a 2nd night.

One of the hardest things a parent can do is let their kids make their own decisions and fail. A family party (and I've done them) can be just as much fun when you blow it as it is when you win. I get he wants the 'best', but let the kids do their own thing and where safer to fail than in a F2p game where it's not really going to matter.

Fair enough, especially coming from FPS games. DDO is a lot more "academic" than call of duty, and *will* be overwhelming at first. Probably a lot depends on the personality and desire the kids have with regards to the game. Are they interested in building the character and learning, or do they just want to log on and blast bad guys? I'd hope they want to learn the ins and outs of building a good character, because it's a very fun part of DDO.

I also agree that the occasional quest fails can be a lot of fun -- a lot of my fondest early DDO memories are of getting whacked in difficult content (with my pretty weak sorcerer). I remember getting to 20 for the first time and dying, a lot, trying to get tokens for a TR.

I think the risk is if the characters are built REALLY BADLY, that may also scare them off from playing.

When I said Stock, I meant just picking say Rogue > Dark Blade > Elf > .... > hit play without going advanced and changing any of the inital stats or abilities. I used the full 'term' eariler when I said stock character stats.

I don't have any problem playing them that way and don't think you need to go into the advanced set up to fiddle with the Str, Con etc... scores to get that 'perfect' start point.

I do agree, for new toons, that generally it's not a great idea to follow the 'uber' builds. They're usually complicated and require tomes and past lives, which none of these characters will have. However, I think going with the stock builds is also preventing the group from learning from mistakes. I think there's a happy medium where OP figures out the 4-some he wants to run and we can give general advice for 4 relatively simple builds (rough starting stats, most useful skills, what feats NOT to choose, etc). As they progress, they'll figure out their preferred playstyles and tweak to their liking.

[C-Dog]

The game was built to be played via those stock characters...

Once upone a time it was. Since those characters were posted, much has changed.

And just because YOU think a build is prefect, doesn't mean I will. Nor will your play style be the same as mine, so again while it might work for you, doesn't mean it will for me.

If you have read other posts of mine, you'll know that I agree 100% with this sentiment, and post such often. I just found it mildly surprising that someone would do this with all the pre-fab builds.

But with so many players, it's pretty obvious that someone had to have done it.


In the context of the OP, when they expressed concern about a "hate to find that later on that we have picked useless feats", that said to me that they wanted something more reliable - and many of those old Stock characters are dubious in that regard (if not worse). But I suppose there are different ways to read that.

This whole mind set that you shouldn't think for yourself and instead you HAVE to follow someone else who may or may not even know what he's talking about is a bunch of bull.

Yeah, I'll largely(!) disagree with you on that.

Do you HAVE to? Of course not. But, as a player new to DDO, only if you don't want a high % chance to build a character that fails before Level 12. Because the reported evidence is too strong that that's what usually happens.

Because while "thinking for yourself" is fine, DDO is complex, and so building a character as a newbie is not so much "thinking" as it is just blind "guessing".

(And, again - to me - that sort of "learn by failing" process doesn't sound like the experience that the OP was looking for - could be wrong.)


As for the "may or may not know what they're doing" part - these forums are fairly blunt in their reviews. If someone posts a build and it's "good", replies will reflect that. If it's good enough to stand out, the thread will be both long and long-lived. If it sucks, likewise, there will be some significant sharp critiques. And if crickets... meh, nothing special.

And despite the disparate playstyles and differing opinions on specifics, "We", the forum as a whole, DO tend to know what we are talking about.

[Nebless]

Once upone a time it was. Since those characters were posted, much has changed.

and many of those old Stock characters are dubious in that regard (if not worse).

Ok, while I've never had a problem with them, I'm open to being educated, so please pick 2 classes and tell me why those stock classes aren't any good and I'd be better off following someone's build.