Change level requirements for Epic Eldritch Blast & Pact Dice feats

[rabidfox]

Both Epic Eldritch Blast & Epic Pact Dice require warlock level 12 to take. Acolyte of the Skin lets you take dice as feats independently of warlock levels (just like monk can take their upgrade feats with splash builds). The problem is as a warlock, one's blast damage will drop hard if one doesn't take the 2 epic level feats so it limits AotS multiclasses to 12 warlock builds if they want to use blasts. It would open up a ton of build options if those 2 feats could be ML12 warlock / "Ultimate Pact Attunement feat" for their requirements. There's already a feat tax in taking them all, so it's not free damage; it would just make for more build choices.

I would not allow it just for ML1 AotS. But they should make Ultimate Pact Attunement feat be an accepted pre-req.

Edit to reflect Ahpook's suggestion (for those who might not read thru the whole thread).

[droid327]

The two Epic feats are required for EB builds no matter what...that doesnt change the 3 Heroic feats you need to run EB in a /2 AotS or something. Just means you need to trade off a couple other spellcasting feats. If you let /12 Lock take the Heroic feats, then they'd get extra die on top of their regular progression, and it was clearly intended to be an alternative to level-based progression, not a way to augment it.

The bigger problem I have with the idea is there's no real reason to splash EB on another class in the first place. Martial splits will want to use their weapon and dont have any synergy with EB. Casters already have a full suite of offensive options and would almost always rather just cast a spell than fire an EB - its not like most casters are SP limited or anything. And if you want to make EB the main focus of your offense, then you're best off just staying as a Lock...

The best synergy I can see might be an 18 FvS/2 AotS, taking advantage of all the boosts to Fire and Light (Evil) to boost their Utterdark+Fiend Pact EB. But you're still going to do better AOE damage with a Flamestrike or Cometfall than flinging a couple Blasts...the only real use I could see would be Chain shape for cleaning up after an AOE salvo instead of picking off stragglers with other spells, but I'm not going to spend 3 feats and 2 class levels just for such a niche use.

13 AotS/7 Wiz maybe for Undead healing and EB offense, meh? But then you only need to take the 1 extra feat.

[ahpook]

Both Epic Eldritch Blast & Epic Pact Dice require warlock level 12 to take. Acolyte of the Skin lets you take dice as feats independently of warlock levels (just like monk can take their upgrade feats with splash builds). The problem is as a warlock, one's blast damage will drop hard if one doesn't take the 2 epic level feats so it limits AotS multiclasses to 12 warlock builds if they want to use blasts. It would open up a ton of build options if those 2 feats could be ML12 warlock / ML1 AotS for their requirements. There's already a feat tax in taking them all, so it's not free damage; it would just make for more build choices.

I would not allow it just for ML1 AotS. But they should make Ultimate Pact Attunement feat be an accepted pre-req.

[rabidfox]

If you let /12 Lock take the Heroic feats, then they'd get extra die on top of their regular progression, and it was clearly intended to be an alternative to level-based progression, not a way to augment it

I wasn't looking for regular warlocks to get the heroic feats that AotS gets. I was look for the 2 epic feats to be usable on AotS characters that have less than 12 levels in warlock so there's more build options. Right now any AotS multiclass that uses their blasts has to be 12 AotS / x other stuff in order to do decent blast damage (which seems counter to the design when you can grab the heroic dice feats off them as feats without requiring 12 levels).

[rabidfox]

I would not allow it just for ML1 AotS. But they should make Ultimate Pact Attunement feat be an accepted pre-req.

That's a solid pre-req for it. =)

[EdsanDarkbane]

Both Epic Eldritch Blast & Epic Pact Dice require warlock level 12 to take. Acolyte of the Skin lets you take dice as feats independently of warlock levels (just like monk can take their upgrade feats with splash builds). The problem is as a warlock, one's blast damage will drop hard if one doesn't take the 2 epic level feats so it limits AotS multiclasses to 12 warlock builds if they want to use blasts. It would open up a ton of build options if those 2 feats could be ML12 warlock / ML1 AotS for their requirements. There's already a feat tax in taking them all, so it's not free damage; it would just make for more build choices.

What are specifically trying to accomplish with this change...what are going to build with it?

[rabidfox]

What are specifically trying to accomplish with this change...what are going to build with it?

Not a clue what I'd build with it. It'd probably be pure flavor builds. I just found the level requirements of those 2 epic feats incongruent with the ways AotS can take it's heroic blaster feats with multiclass setups; it creates a weird power drop where you can level blaster AotS on a low splash and when you hit 21/22 the lack of being able to take those epic feats tanks the damage and breaks any fun flavor builds using blasts.

[droid327]

I wasn't looking for regular warlocks to get the heroic feats that AotS gets. I was look for the 2 epic feats to be usable on AotS characters that have less than 12 levels in warlock so there's more build options. Right now any AotS multiclass that uses their blasts has to be 12 AotS / x other stuff in order to do decent blast damage (which seems counter to the design when you can grab the heroic dice feats off them as feats without requiring 12 levels).

Ohh I gotcha now, that checks out

Yeah anyone who can blast should have access to epic blast

[unbongwah]

Both Epic Eldritch Blast & Epic Pact Dice require warlock level 12 to take. Acolyte of the Skin lets you take dice as feats independently of warlock levels (just like monk can take their upgrade feats with splash builds). The problem is as a warlock, one's blast damage will drop hard if one doesn't take the 2 epic level feats so it limits AotS multiclasses to 12 warlock builds if they want to use blasts.

It's a bit ironic that you mention monks since it's exactly the same restriction on Improved Martial Arts and Vorpal Strikes requiring monk level 12; monk-splashed builds like monkchers or clonks can't take them even if they've taken Grandmaster of Forms feat manually. So at least SSG is being consistent about restricting the class-specific epic feats.

I'm not really a fan of class-specific feats being available to heavily multiclassed builds in the first place, so I'm fine with keeping the current requirements in place.

[rabidfox]

It's a bit ironic that you mention monks since it's exactly the same restriction on Improved Martial Arts and Vorpal Strikes requiring monk level 12; monk-splashed builds like monkchers or clonks can't take them even if they've taken Grandmaster of Forms feat manually. So at least SSG is being consistent about restricting the class-specific epic feats..

Neither of those cut damage by 50% by not having them. Not having those pact dice is the difference of 8 vs 15 dice by default. AotS having independent dice feats lets them play as a splash via blasts in heroics just fine and then they get broken by not being able to scale into epics correctly. There's a huge difference between those 2 monk feats and the 2 pact epic feats. The 2 warlock epic feats exist as a bandaid for poor epic scaling of blast damage not as slight boosts.