Dual/triple build per char

[stricek]

Hi,

I’ve been trying to find a post about this but nothing comes up…
And I’m certain there had to be talk about this because it’s an essential thing and quite annoying…

So what I mean by dual build per char is to switch between enhancements and destinies without having to reset everything and spend the points again.

Almost every MMO that I’ve played has this…

They take a snapshot of the points distributed and gear that you wear and associate it with a “name” of your choice.
Later on you just choose between different “names” somewhere on the char sheet.
I don’t see a problem having that in DDO…

I know that we can’t have it from the scratch due to complexity of our leveling system, but the enhancements and destinies and pure point distribution so I don’t see a reason why a snapshot couldn’t be made and offered somewhere on the char sheet as a drop down menu.

This would bring so much value to the game!

I have a tank parked at cap(as many of us do) and I have no desire to farm EPLs because its inability to solo or zerg makes me vomit.
But if I could change it (almost)completely on a single button click to turn it into something more fun(dps) I would definitely farm EPLs.

This is just one example. I’m sure there’s many MANY more…

More active char = more money for SSG…because if you actually play a char you’ll buy stuff for it…

Soooo….could we have this done please?

[Kza]

Many (Including me) have asked for this the last 10 years or so.
For me it is the most important feature missing from this awesome game.

Nice more ask for it. Hopefully they soon understand that all top mmo:s need this!

[mikarddo]

I have asked for the same a few times over the years and I fully agree that it would be an amazing addition to the game.

Unfortunately, I doubt we will ever see it in DDO. I think they fear the technical bugs AND I think they would rather point to the reincarnation system and alts to cover having access to different builds.

[stricek]

I have asked for the same a few times over the years and I fully agree that it would be an amazing addition to the game.

Unfortunately, I doubt we will ever see it in DDO. I think they fear the technical bugs AND I think they would rather point to the reincarnation system and alts to cover having access to different builds.

I do see full character respec a problem.
Leveling process is not point distribution so that probably wouldn’t work.

But when it comes to enhancements and destinies that’s quite simple.
I don’t see what’s there to be worried about or afraid of.
I hope we’re past the point where we had tons of developers who were learning how to code in Turbine…
By now Lyn and others should’ve mastered everything and taking a snapshot of distributed points and worn gear and restoring them should be a piece of cake..

If you read this post and would like this functionality please leave a “+” comment and maybe that way we can show them how much this is needed…

[J1NG]

I do see full character respec a problem.
Leveling process is not point distribution so that probably wouldn’t work.

Unfortunately, whilst not ideal. It is going to be the answer in all cases. More below.

But when it comes to enhancements and destinies that’s quite simple.
I don’t see what’s there to be worried about or afraid of.
I hope we’re past the point where we had tons of developers who were learning how to code in Turbine…
By now Lyn and others should’ve mastered everything and taking a snapshot of distributed points and worn gear and restoring them should be a piece of cake..

If you read this post and would like this functionality please leave a “+” comment and maybe that way we can show them how much this is needed…

The player can also take a snapshot and then just put it in themselves. A hassle, but it can be done.

The reason the server/game side shouldn't take a snapshot for you? Because of the many potential issues that can crop up.

1. Abilities that have been changed, needing different requirements, different point allocation, etc. This will break any snapshot instantly, because if this snapshot is put back in as you placed them, but it can no longer do so (because of requirements, etc have changed), it will basically break and not work whilst it waits for your input. This means that if you did it yourself you might actually finish this quicker. Or you can compare with the new changes yourself quicker with your own snapshot and make more appropriate changes.

2. Many abilities are not really removed, they're still in the game code (some are replaced, but not always). This means that if you have an older snapshot and it is allowed to run, but it calls up an older feature or ability that is no longer "typically" available to players, you would have either a broken ability that no longer works (players then complain about it not working) or have a busted abilty that was removed because it was working too good (and thus an exploit).

3. If you are thinking the snapshot should encompass changes made by the Devs so that this issue wouldn't come up, that's a system that needs to factor in many changes (things that have changed) and permutations (which abilities were taken "when" and at what level, etc, stuff that is not tracked normally) that would simply be a headache and not a "It's super easy, barely and inconvenience" for the Devs to implement. To say nothing about how the changes the Devs makes are not even in their own release notes sometimes or stuff they didn't even realise was happening. So I wouldn't hope the Devs to release something that can track every change made, as that likely wouldn't even be accurate.

I'd like this idea, but I also know the technical aspects make it totally unviable. The player side snapshot is the quicker approach unfortunately. This will only be wasted Dev time which can be spent on other things that have an actual impact on the game.

J1NG

[stricek]

Unfortunately, whilst not ideal. It is going to be the answer in all cases. More below.



The player can also take a snapshot and then just put it in themselves. A hassle, but it can be done.

The reason the server/game side shouldn't take a snapshot for you? Because of the many potential issues that can crop up.

1. Abilities that have been changed, needing different requirements, different point allocation, etc. This will break any snapshot instantly, because if this snapshot is put back in as you placed them, but it can no longer do so (because of requirements, etc have changed), it will basically break and not work whilst it waits for your input. This means that if you did it yourself you might actually finish this quicker. Or you can compare with the new changes yourself quicker with your own snapshot and make more appropriate changes.

2. Many abilities are not really removed, they're still in the game code (some are replaced, but not always). This means that if you have an older snapshot and it is allowed to run, but it calls up an older feature or ability that is no longer "typically" available to players, you would have either a broken ability that no longer works (players then complain about it not working) or have a busted abilty that was removed because it was working too good (and thus an exploit).

3. If you are thinking the snapshot should encompass changes made by the Devs so that this issue wouldn't come up, that's a system that needs to factor in many changes (things that have changed) and permutations (which abilities were taken "when" and at what level, etc, stuff that is not tracked normally) that would simply be a headache and not a "It's super easy, barely and inconvenience" for the Devs to implement. To say nothing about how the changes the Devs makes are not even in their own release notes sometimes or stuff they didn't even realise was happening. So I wouldn't hope the Devs to release something that can track every change made, as that likely wouldn't even be accurate.

I'd like this idea, but I also know the technical aspects make it totally unviable. The player side snapshot is the quicker approach unfortunately. This will only be wasted Dev time which can be spent on other things that have an actual impact on the game.

J1NG

Well, of course, I mean for it to be something reasonable.
Take the snapshot and bring it back if everything can be evaluated.
If it can’t( due to player changing feats, TRing or whatever the reason might be) we would get the messages that it couldn’t be done and that’s fine.
Same thing with the equipment, if you have it in the inventory it gets back on your char, if not you get some info…

Soooo….not a rocket science ;-)

[mikarddo]

I would be happy just having free respec of EDs and enhancement trees. While that does not cover all bases it would still allow med to respec quite a bit between different roles.

I would still love an automated feature - but I would be happy with less.

[Ereshkigal]

waste of developer time for something we can do on our own right now and if it were automated would need constant updates / maintenance every time enhancements were added ,removed, or changed.

It literally takes a minute or two to change enhancements if you know what you want.

[stricek]

waste of developer time for something we can do on our own right now and if it were automated would need constant updates / maintenance every time enhancements were added ,removed, or changed.

It literally takes a minute or two to change enhancements if you know what you want.

If you look at it that way many things are a waste of time…
What did you get with the redesign of TR cache?

It’s all about making the game more pleasurable…

I personally HATE IT when I need to redistribute points, set up my new set of items, etc…

Imagine having it all on one click?

I don’t understand how you don’t see it as a benefit?

[J1NG]

I don’t understand how you don’t see it as a benefit?

It's not so much no one see's the benefit.

It's more that we can also see the investment needed to make such a thing happen, and it is by no means "cheap". Developer needing to constantly update such a system (after needing to make it as well) with EVERY little change (every patch and update) is development time lost that could be put into other aspects of the game that sorely need more pressing and urgent attention "now".

Compare that to what is required right now for a player to set this up on their own, and it becomes quite hard to agree with this idea other than it's a "nice thing to have", but virtually nowhere near important enough to warrant actually backing and wanting Devs to work on.

J1NG

:: edit ::

Personally, I've always (after discovering them, thanks all DDO Character Builder makers out there) use a character builder as the "snapshot" of what I want. Then a quick actual snapshot on my phone (if I can't have DDO side by side to the open app). And I can easily and quickly fit in the Enhancements and Destinies I want. This compared to an automated system, would largely be a difference of 15-25 seconds at most. I don't think 25 seconds is worth development time (money, resources, time, coding) for an in built system when existing systems can already replicate it and have little difference between what they can do and what you have suggested (for it to solve).

[stricek]

It's not so much no one see's the benefit.

It's more that we can also see the investment needed to make such a thing happen, and it is by no means "cheap". Developer needing to constantly update such a system (after needing to make it as well) with EVERY little change (every patch and update) is development time lost that could be put into other aspects of the game that sorely need more pressing and urgent attention "now".

Compare that to what is required right now for a player to set this up on their own, and it becomes quite hard to agree with this idea other than it's a "nice thing to have", but virtually nowhere near important enough to warrant actually backing and wanting Devs to work on.

J1NG

:: edit ::

Personally, I've always (after discovering them, thanks all DDO Character Builder makers out there) use a character builder as the "snapshot" of what I want. Then a quick actual snapshot on my phone (if I can't have DDO side by side to the open app). And I can easily and quickly fit in the Enhancements and Destinies I want. This compared to an automated system, would largely be a difference of 15-25 seconds at most. I don't think 25 seconds is worth development time (money, resources, time, coding) for an in built system when existing systems can already replicate it and have little difference between what they can do and what you have suggested (for it to solve).

Well our difference in opinion is that I believe it shouldn’t take a long time to develop neither would it need additional work after updates.
If you have a function behind every click on the enhancement/destiny tree then you would just be mimicking person’s clicks on the tree as you’re bringing back the snapshot.
So if that function has all the “brains” then no additional work needs to be done.
And I truly hope that’s how they coded it…if not then that’s just bad coding…

Again, you just mimic person’s clicking on the tree from the bottom to the top…
If the function doesn’t return “ok” then just give a message to the player that it can’t be done.
As simple as that…

[J1NG]

Again, you just mimic person’s clicking on the tree from the bottom to the top…
If the function doesn’t return “ok” then just give a message to the player that it can’t be done.
As simple as that…

So... As simple as a macro?

There's loads about already that can get the job done as you are describing (Microsoft, Autohotkey, Macro Recorder, and many others). So there's no reason to even ask for an in built game one if all you need is to copy mouse clicks and movements and throw up an error message if it can't complete.

There's no need for SSG to develop anything.

J1NG

[stricek]

So... As simple as a macro?

There's loads about already that can get the job done as you are describing (Microsoft, Autohotkey, Macro Recorder, and many others). So there's no reason to even ask for an in built game one if all you need is to copy mouse clicks and movements and throw up an error message if it can't complete.

There's no need for SSG to develop anything.

J1NG

If there are add ons that can accomplish this I’d love to see a YouTube demo.

I personally don’t believe that there’s something out there that can restore our trees to previous versions and wear a certain gear set.

So if it can’t be accomplished I believe SSG developing this would bring a new value to the game since it’s what other products out there have had for quite a while now…

[J1NG]

If there are add ons that can accomplish this I’d love to see a YouTube demo.

I'm sure someone will point some out to you eventually or get one done eventually. Not me though, as I have other commitments both in DDO and in real life to get an exact demo for you.

I personally don’t believe that there’s something out there that can restore our trees to previous versions and wear a certain gear set.

This is where you are wrong.

Hotbars when setup properly with your desired item sets in them, can be automated to switch into with the correct ke pressess with a macro. Allowiing you to swap to specific setups as you need (limitations within DDO permitting for speed of swapping items). The hotbars are not limited to use for spells and abilities after all.

Enhancements and Destinies can be manually reset, then from a default point (top left corner of screen for reference, so drag the Enhancement/Destiny tree to the top left as well) then automiatcally replicate all the mouse movements and clicks you previously recorded to re-enter the Enhancement or Destiny choices you previously made (each of your old "profiles" you wanted). This will allow you to change "profiles" of different Enhancement/Destiny selections more quickly by running the macro that matches the profile you want.

Although again, you're not really saving much time on this. But it absolutely can be done "right now" with the players own time investment into getting it running. No development by SSG necessary.

J1NG

[stricek]

I'm sure someone will point some out to you eventually or get one done eventually. Not me though, as I have other commitments both in DDO and in real life to get an exact demo for you.



This is where you are wrong.

Hotbars when setup properly with your desired item sets in them, can be automated to switch into with the correct ke pressess with a macro. Allowiing you to swap to specific setups as you need (limitations within DDO permitting for speed of swapping items). The hotbars are not limited to use for spells and abilities after all.

Enhancements and Destinies can be manually reset, then from a default point (top left corner of screen for reference, so drag the Enhancement/Destiny tree to the top left as well) then automiatcally replicate all the mouse movements and clicks you previously recorded to re-enter the Enhancement or Destiny choices you previously made (each of your old "profiles" you wanted). This will allow you to change "profiles" of different Enhancement/Destiny selections more quickly by running the macro that matches the profile you want.

Although again, you're not really saving much time on this. But it absolutely can be done "right now" with the players own time investment into getting it running. No development by SSG necessary.

J1NG

To achieve all this you’ve described a person needs to be skilled in many things and needs to invest a lot of time to be able to do it.

For some people that’s rocket science.
And I don’t believe SSG requires a player to be scientist to play this game and to have advanced functionalities.

This what I’m proposing is merely keeping up with the current market.

It’s important to understand that this is a company trying to make the money and players are the only ones who will potentially give them the money.

Bringing new value to the game and making the gameplay more pleasurable is the way to keep the players playing and willing to spend the money.

You’re looking at this too strictly from your standpoint.

You’ve probably been playing this game since the dawn of time and you know all the little things, hacks, etc…

But there’s potential sea of new players out there and being able to show that your product is at least equal to what’s currently out on the market is very important.

Getting a new player is very hard and especially keeping him.
So having these little “standard” functionalities definitely helps…

I believe we all want a bigger player base, bigger income for SSG, etc…

[OzmarDDO]

Since the changes to respec can all be done manually (reset enhancement trees, epic destinies, and equipment), it should be possible to build a third-party add-on that would do it for you with pre-set configurations.

So we don't need the devs to do this. One of us can build such an add-on and make it available for everyone.

Who wants to give it a try?

-Ozmar the Amateur Coder

Edit: I see that's what you guys were talking about. I really should learn to read the whole thread before commenting...

[ahpook]

Hi,

So what I mean by dual build per char is to switch between enhancements and destinies without having to reset everything and spend the points again.

I agree with the OP and think it would be great.

Despite the criticisms, it really shouldn't be that hard. There are character builders that can handle this reasonably well. I won't rebut the concerns that have been brought up because we are not designing the system but I have no doubts that there are simple and reasonable solutions to the "problems" that have been raised.

[Axcarth]

... Bringing new value to the game and making the gameplay more pleasurable is the way to keep the players playing and willing to spend the money.

Good resume. +1 to your idea (actually a mass idea for the last 10 years). I'd really like to see a one click build setup swapper button.

Some are saying "dont ask for that much", "too many technical issues to solve", "no way it can be done"... Really guys, you are on the attitude of status quo and justifying the culture of stagnation, where everything remains the same just because of... it's cancer. All you see is barriers and difficulties and time wasting. How you guys are ever gonna get any improvement on your game, life or society thinking like that. Some others claim to know what is important for the game and players and what is not... "a waste of developer's time" they say, "not as important as this other thing". You know, "players" are a broad cross section of personalities with opinions and tastes. What is important and comfortable for a group may not be as important for others, but that doesn't means it's less valid or nearly a bad idea. It's been quite an attitude of some (for quite long) to show themselves here just to say how wrong an opinion is or how inviable and idea is, discouraging any try to give the game a different point of view or an attempt for a possible improvement/upgrade/refinement. If you are not helping improvement, at least do not help to destroy.

Cya in game!