Dual Shooting is BAD endgame.

[Ladislaio]

Single Shooting is over 145% the DPS of Dual Shooting

_{On my build, at level 32, for the first 8 min 40s of constant attacking(13 NHB charges).
Dual Shooting catches up about 37 minutes of constant attacking after NHB runs out.
10 charges of NHB almost always gets me from shrine to shrine.
Most raids last less than 45 min, and you are not attacking that entire time without shrining either.
Current as of Update 57.1, January 2023}

Testing/conclusions have the following conditions:

• t5’s from Inquisitive(NHB and 30% Alac in particular).
• 13+ charges of No Holds Barred (NHB).
• 13 charges of Reaper’s Strike.
• Full Base Attack Bonus (BAB 25), source shouldn’t matter.
• 20% ranged attack speed bonus from an item (Rune arm + aug from Skeletons in the Closet gives this)
• Carry On from the Legendary Dreadnought tree for an additional 10% alacrity when using an action boost. (Tests repeated without for comparison)
• Each “Shot” of a crossbow consumed 1 bolt. (A single click on a dual shooter consumed two, while a single shooter consumed only one, so I believe this to be true)
• Doubleshot doesn’t impact number of bolts consumed per shot (See above, assumed to be true)
• Rotation is on 40s, so everytime Reaper’s Strike is off CD you hit NHB then Reaper’s Strike, until you are out of NHB charges.
• You have at least 50 Doubleshot. (I have 105 on Poppytop currently, see breakdown at end)
• Dual Shooting takes a 50% doubleshot penalty.

Empirical tests:
Dual Shooting Heavy Xbow:

• 50 bolts in 20 seconds
• 50 bolts in 20 seconds w/ Doubleshot Boost (triggering LD Carry On)
• 64 bolts during NHB (Triggering LD Carry On)
• 64 bolts during NHB (LD tree reset, so no Carry On)

Single Shooting Heavy Xbow:

• 30 bolts in 20 seconds
• 33 bolts in 20 seconds w/ Doubleshot Boost (Triggering LD Carry On)
• 90 bolts during NHB (Triggering LD Carry On)
• 70 bolts during NHB (LD tree reset, so no Carry On)
• 103 bolts during 40s w/ NHB used once (LD tree reset, so no Carry On)
• 123 bolts during 40s w/ NHB used once (Triggering LD Carry On)

Calculated:
Dual Shooting Heavy Xbow:

• 119 bolts in 40s with NHB used once, Reaper’s Strike (Carry On doesn’t seem to change RoF)
  
  • 162 attacks w/ 50 doubleshot
  • 195 attacks w/ 105 doubleshot

Single Shooting Heavy Xbow:

• 123 bolts in 40s with NHB used once, Reaper’s Strike (Carry On)
  
  • 216 attacks w/ 50 doubleshot
  • 284 attacks w/ 105 doubleshot
• 103 Bolts in 40s with NHB used once, Reaper’s Strike (No Carry On)
  
  • 180 attacks w/ 50 doubleshot
  • 237 attacks w/ 105 doubleshot

Single - Dual Shooting Heavy xbow, NHB once in 40s, Reaper’s Strike

• 18 more attacks w/ 50 doubleshot
• 42 more attacks w/ 105 doubleshot
• 54 more attacks w/ 50 doubleshot, Carry On
• 89 more attacks w/ 105 doubleshot, Carry On
  
  • 145% more DPS
  • Roughly 1157 more attacks in 13 NHB / Reaper’s strike used
  • 7.1 Attacks per second (about)

Heavy xbow, Doublestrike Bottled Boost used on CD, 40s

• Dual Shooting:
  • 132 attacks w/ 50 doubleshot
  • 160 attacks w/ 105 doubleshot
• Single Shooting:
  • 99 attacks w/ 50 doubleshot
  • 104 attacks w/ 50 doubleshot (Carry On)
  • 132 attacks w/ 105 doubleshot
  • 139 attacks w/ 105 doubleshot (Carry On)
    • 21 attacks behind Dual Shooting
    • About .525 attacks/second behind Dual Shooting
    • 1157 / 0.525 / 60 = 36.73, or 36 min 44 seconds to catch up.

My build isn’t finalized yet, so I don’t want to make a big post on it. But here is the summary of the current test setup:

• 16 alchemist, 2 artificer, 2 monk
• 41 Inquistive (NO DUAL SHOOTING, capstone)
• 21 Vile Chemist (4th core for full BAB)
• 11 Battle Engineer (extra action boosts)
• 7 Harper Agent (? Know the Angles)
• 1 Henshin Mystic (1 imbue die)
• 3 racial because that’s all the past lives I have.

33 Shardi Champion (No nerve venom, sad face)
14 Shadow Dancer (Doubleshot, sneak attack, nightshield, ranged power, immunity to negs)
23 Legendary Dreadnought (Carry On, Extra Action Boosts, Imbue Die, Armor MDB, Doubleshot)


105 doubleshot (mouseover says 106)(could get 2 more by giving up monk)

• Past Lives 9
• Guild Buff 2
• Inquisitive 15
• Vile Chemist 8
• ED’s 23 (11 Shardi, 6 Legendary Dread, 6 Shadow Dancer)
• Shattered Device Filigree set 3
• Crackshot Filigree set 5
• Doubleshot feat 10
• Enhanced 8 (L. Spectre Boots)
• Insight 4 (Helm of the Final Watcher)
• Profane 3 (Attuned Rune Arm w/ Fragment of Extraplanar Shadow)
• Artifact 15 (L. Profane Experiment set)

Other stats of possible interest:

• Filigree: Shattered Device x4, Crackshot x4, Long Shadow x3, Reverb x3
• 570 Poison Spell power(unbuffed, public area, missing gear, missing filigrees)
• 225 Ranged power(unbuffed, public area, missing gear, missing set, missing filigrees)
• 71 INT (unbuffed, public area, missing gear, missing past lives)
• 34 dodge (Reaper; 32 out)
• 31 bonus imbue dice (self buffed; about 600 law vs lawful, 960 law vs chaotic, or 960 poison)
• 6 sneak attack dice
• 71% Ranged Attack Speed Bonus (mouseover)

Side thoughts about the build:
2 arti is for rune arm, which makes getting a Dread set easier and gives the highest attack speed buff in the game currently (better than haste)
Monk is picked because it gives an imbue die and DEFLECT ARROWS.
One major use of AP that could be changed is Inquis, giving up the capstone is a possibility if I can find another split that would need those AP's.
Scion of Aboria is likely more (overall) damage than Scion of Air, I just like my +4 dodge cap. Numbers are very close and highly dependent on gearing an reaper AP's.
Greater Elemental Weapons is slightly more DPS than Deadly Weapons with my current setup. I'm not sure where my rp/sp will land at the end, so this may change.

Inquisitor Dual Shooting is a bad enhancement endgame. You are better off just using a single shot heavy crossbow.

EDIT: Youtube video of NHB tests:
https://youtu.be/ClqJj0TAhSo

[Arkat]

I TRed my Inquisitive because it just didn't feel right anymore.

Carpone, I know "feeling" =/ math, but I think Poppy has put their finger on exactly why I don't like it.

[KoobTheProud]

Questions like these always remind me of "how many nuclear explosions can you set off on the head of a pin?"

But then again I never play difficulties greater than r1 so what do I know?

[Tilomere]

Hahaha I tried to explain this exact thing to people 3 years ago.

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...itor-dps-by-45

The math and understanding is beyond the player base. All I got was a few insults from players who the math went over their heads and a developer who got it deciding to remove combat brute from the game for my efforts. GL with yours!

[LavidDynch]

Inq are a bit lacklustre when not NHB-ing, but I doubt anything in the game can produce like an Inq while this is on... I feel that the OP would be alot happier using Arti and a reloader.

OP, may I ask, what is you weapon dmg?

These are my offensive stats on R (for reference).
(Weapon) + 134 (+ 4 FE so + 142 vs alot of things)
322 rp // 415 full on.
21d6+29 SA
95 DS
14 Imb dice.
47% bonus helpless dmg
133& fort by pass
-10prr/-40mmr Debuffs. Shat-device (-10 prr/mmr), Mind Tear (-21mmr), Bring Darkness (-9mmr)

[Ladislaio]

Inq are a bit lacklustre when not NHB-ing, but I doubt anything in the game can produce like an Inq while this is on... I feel that the OP would be alot happier using Arti and a reloader.

The OP is about how Inq NHB when dual shooting is really bad compared to not dual shooting. Further testing, not in the post because I didn't conduct it, suggests that dual shooting NHB is the worst NHB of any options.
Because of the nerf to doubleshot when using a repeater your effective attack rate at cap isn't great either, but they may have a higher bolt usage.

Weapon damage, imbue dice, sneak attack etc don't matter for this DPS test, as all of those things apply equally per attack.
I'm still missing a lot of gear and have a hodgepodge, so my numbers are not that impressive, but
Weapon + 118 (KTA + Reaper). No FE feats.

Independent of your stats besides doubleshot, if you are a Dual Shooting Inq, you would do more damage as a single shooting Inq, unless it is an extremely long DPS slugfest.

[Ladislaio]

Hahaha I tried to explain this exact thing to people 3 years ago.

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...itor-dps-by-45

The math and understanding is beyond the player base. All I got was a few insults from players who the math went over their heads and a developer who got it deciding to remove combat brute from the game for my efforts. GL with yours!

Thank you for the link, was unaware of your post; I was on a break from the game at the time otherwise I would have likely responded with a similar test.

Been a few updates since then, notably the ED pass, which is possibly why you didn't also do math to account for DPS without NHB running.
It is interesting that I'm getting many more bolts on a single shooter than you were, but still the same on a dual shooter.

[LavidDynch]

The OP is about how Inq NHB when dual shooting is really bad compared to not dual shooting. Further testing, not in the post because I didn't conduct it, suggests that dual shooting NHB is the worst NHB of any options.

tx. most builds I see don´t include the actual base dmg part of their builds, but they never miss out on their DS numbers...

Got intrigued..

Did some tests myself. Not sure if the DS penalty is bugged or not, or if its my characters or account. the logic behind this post seems correct to me but I don´t personally see it in-game and this would be very easy to spot; since single shooting would push mine and most builds above the 2 arrow DS proc territory,.. in some quest-tests, the highest dmg number stays the same, only RoF is worse; and also procs seemed waay slower to build up on a single-user while not boosting.

1min, nhb +40s of non-boost.
122 single - 166 dual.
66 shots- 20s. NHB boost itself disregards style.

[Ladislaio]

tx. most builds I see don´t include the actual base dmg part of their builds, but they never miss out on their DS numbers...

1min, nhb +40s of non-boost.
122 single - 166 dual.
66 shots- 20s. NHB boost itself disregards style.

If NHB is 66 no matter the style for you, then you are shooting 22 shots/20s on the single. Pretty sure you are missing quite a few attack speed buffs, such as max BAB and possibly alac 20% instead of 15%. If you are missing these things enough then Dual Shooting is better because it doesn't scale as well with them, and conversely isn't hurt as much when you don't have the buffs. Honestly I think that the attack rate of Dual Shooting is capped and NHB exceeds that cap somewhere in low epics, or possibly high heroics. I was able to get about 66 bolts per NHB on single shooting with a BAB of 19 and no alac item. Tenser up, drink a haste pot, then do the test again.
Doing your test with single shooting (NHB + 40s no boost) I shot 145 bolts. Not going to test with dual shooting cuz I'm outta plat for resetting and this is close to the number predicted from other tests. This isn't a practical dps check tho, as anything you would be shooting for that long you should have started a NHB again - or - everything is so close to dead when NHB comes off of CD that you aren't intending to do dps. It is even less practical for a alchemist based build such as mine as even if I were out of NHB I should/would be using another boost when it came off CD.
Even with your test, at 95 doubleshot, you would have an effective 238 attacks single shooting and 245 dual shooting, meaning the DPS is almost the same between the two, even with the sub-optimal rotation. Closing the rotation up for rot on 40 not 60(so that you sync with reaper's strike; this is actually worse dps than just using NHB on cd, but it is a higher burst amount), you would have 88 bolts single and 116 double per 40s, which is 171 attacks per 40s at 95 doubleshot for both styles. In this case I would favor double shooting, but again, I think you are missing quite a bit of attack speed with your build which needs to be addressed to make single shooting a better option.

The doubleshot difference is there. Eyeballing the "largest number" in a quest isn't a very rigorous method of testing if it rolls over to triple shot or not, which you shouldn't because your doubleshot is less than 100. A better, but still not great, way of testing if doubleshot is lower on DS than SS is looking for the _lowest_ number when your DS is over 100. This is because on a DS you should get single shots about half the time, but you should never get a single shot on a SS xbow.

A big part of the reason why DS is mentioned but that "damage is +x" usually isn't is that "damage is +x" doesn't usually change in a significant amount between fully geared builds endgame that are running the same enhancement trees. Some things like "Are you running alchemical acid proc" result in a larger dps differences than "damage is +x" vs "damage is +x+15".

NHB options are Dual shooting (heavy, light); Single shooting (heavy, light); Great xbow(rog t5); repeater (heavy, light)(rog t5); repeater (heavy, light)(12 arti). What testing I have conducted suggest that, for a capped BAB and attack speed character, Repeaters > Single shooting (heavy, light) >= Great xbow > Dual shooting(heavy, light), in number of bolts fired durring NHB/EF. When you normalize for 100 doubleshot, it goes Single shooting (heavy, light) >= Great xbow > Repeaters > dual shooting (heavy, light)

repeater(heavy, light)(12 arti rog t5) and Great xbow (no alac enhancment) are also options, but I have no test data on them whatsoever.

[kmoustakas]

This is very interesting, thank you.

What I was doing lately was go inquisitive 20 until 27 (with epic storm for that x3) when I extra clip just switch to fatal flaw at 28 then respec out of inquisitive and fully into battle engineer.

[LavidDynch]

If NHB is 66 no matter the style for you, then you are shooting 22 shots/20s on the single. Pretty sure you are missing quite a few attack speed buffs, such as max BAB and possibly alac 20% instead of 15%. If you are missing these things enough then Dual Shooting is better because it doesn't scale as well with them, and conversely isn't hurt as much when you don't have the buffs. Honestly I think that the attack rate of Dual Shooting is capped and NHB exceeds that cap somewhere in low epics, or possibly high heroics. I was able to get about 66 bolts per NHB on single shooting with a BAB of 19 and no alac item. Tenser up, drink a haste pot, then do the test again.
Doing your test with single shooting (NHB + 40s no boost) I shot 145 bolts. Not going to test with dual shooting cuz I'm outta plat for resetting and this is close to the number predicted from other tests. This isn't a practical dps check tho, as anything you would be shooting for that long you should have started a NHB again - or - everything is so close to dead when NHB comes off of CD that you aren't intending to do dps. It is even less practical for a alchemist based build such as mine as even if I were out of NHB I should/would be using another boost when it came off CD.
Even with your test, at 95 doubleshot, you would have an effective 238 attacks single shooting and 245 dual shooting, meaning the DPS is almost the same between the two, even with the sub-optimal rotation. Closing the rotation up for rot on 40 not 60(so that you sync with reaper's strike; this is actually worse dps than just using NHB on cd, but it is a higher burst amount), you would have 88 bolts single and 116 double per 40s, which is 171 attacks per 40s at 95 doubleshot for both styles. In this case I would favor double shooting, but again, I think you are missing quite a bit of attack speed with your build which needs to be addressed to make single shooting a better option.

The doubleshot difference is there. Eyeballing the "largest number" in a quest isn't a very rigorous method of testing if it rolls over to triple shot or not, which you shouldn't because your doubleshot is less than 100. A better, but still not great, way of testing if doubleshot is lower on DS than SS is looking for the _lowest_ number when your DS is over 100. This is because on a DS you should get single shots about half the time, but you should never get a single shot on a SS xbow.

A big part of the reason why DS is mentioned but that "damage is +x" usually isn't is that "damage is +x" doesn't usually change in a significant amount between fully geared builds endgame that are running the same enhancement trees. Some things like "Are you running alchemical acid proc" result in a larger dps differences than "damage is +x" vs "damage is +x+15".

NHB options are Dual shooting (heavy, light); Single shooting (heavy, light); Great xbow(rog t5); repeater (heavy, light)(rog t5); repeater (heavy, light)(12 arti). What testing I have conducted suggest that, for a capped BAB and attack speed character, Repeaters > Single shooting (heavy, light) >= Great xbow > Dual shooting(heavy, light), in number of bolts fired durring NHB/EF. When you normalize for 100 doubleshot, it goes Single shooting (heavy, light) >= Great xbow > Repeaters > dual shooting (heavy, light)

repeater(heavy, light)(12 arti rog t5) and Great xbow (no alac enhancment) are also options, but I have no test data on them whatsoever.

I tried tenser a few times, and the result remains the same. even non-boosted. hastè pot? now you must be trolling us?

Never claimed to have used a rigorous method, nor need to, with a claim this big... Also, I´m fairly sure I would notice +50% DS, since I do notice when I´m using the reaper boost (30%) or not.

Base dmg is an incredible potent, interesting figure and very important to mention on a physical build for many reasons since that is 1) a potential base multiplier for all non-proc dmg, when people post various claims on builds its usually at a cost; especially on heavy proc builds that cuts into base dmg and other modifiers, so you can take that into consideration for your own build, this also applies to gear... now, I do have a theory on why people exclude it on the forums (except Gilga1 and Cetus.. also maybe strimtom but he provides n1 videos) but that would derail this thread...

btw, I´m not saing your wrong or right, just that I´m not seeing it in-game.

[Ladislaio]

videos

Added a youtube video of the NHB tests.
https://youtu.be/ClqJj0TAhSo

[LavidDynch]

Added a youtube video of the NHB tests.
https://youtu.be/ClqJj0TAhSo

I´m not watching vids of NHB tests, when I just did those tests myself to no avail; esp not when your starting point of the video is naked. I use haste and gear from lvl1.

[Ladislaio]

I´m not watching vids of NHB tests, when I just did those tests myself to no avail; esp not when your starting point of the video is naked. I use haste and gear from lvl1.

Pretty sure you don't, considering your RoF :P

If you actually look at the test I am just wearing the gear that is relevant to the test, so I have full alac, which I show in the video. Other gear was removed to prevent it from being a distraction; in hindsight I should have put on Korthos gear.

I was hoping that, with the video, we would be able to narrow down why my RoF is so much higher than the one that you are getting in testing.

[LavidDynch]

I´m expecting big ground breaking DPS vids.

[Tilomere]

Inb4nerf (again)

[Jeromio]

Inb4nerf (again)

Care to explain a bit more to us who lack detailed knowledge?

[Yamato-San]

Added a youtube video of the NHB tests.
https://youtu.be/ClqJj0TAhSo

Something is not equal
You were doing the double-wield tests with a Doubleshot of 62%
You were doing the single-wield tests with a Doubleshot of 70%

[Bunker]

Am I missing something here. Should NHB work with only holding 1 xbow. NHB should only work in dual shooter mode. Yes/no

I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

[Ladislaio]

Something is not equal
You were doing the double-wield tests with a Doubleshot of 62%
You were doing the single-wield tests with a Doubleshot of 70%

Double shot doesn't impact the number of bolts consumed (anymore, it used to a long time ago, before they changed how it works)

I wonder what caused the difference in ds, as I didn't change gear etc.

Thank you for watching the video with an eye for detail, it really made my night that someone cared enough to notice a discrepancy.