U57 Preview 2: Imbue Overhaul

[Stravix]

This echoes a request I've made and Stravix has also been championing. The sets given imbue bonus dice are not fantastic options for most builds. I would really love to see the TOEE stuff gain imbue dice, as it's somewhat lackluster right now. That would push it into relevance. Some of the magic user sets would be nice too. I think most of the melee/ranged physical dps sets should be left alone as imbues should not be mentioned as a focal point for dps of any of these builds in the first place. They rely mostly on melee/ranged power and sneak dice for all viable damage and that won't change here regardless..

I think ToEE, Abashai (statwise, is basically made for sorc ek), and maybe a dedicated melee/ranged set should get it (each).

Right now DA and SF are both kinda stranded from these, without good heavy armor/cloth armor sets with melee stats, despite being focused entirely on imbues.

[Talnar00]

2 quick points:

point 1 is that the dice that are being adjusted for Inq are concentrated in cores 18 and 20 so saying this is about heroics isn't quite accurate. You are indeed down 1 dice from levels 12 to 17 but that's more than made up for with the ranged power scaling and point 2, which is as follows:

point 2 is that due in part to the passionate feedback in this thread we're going to nudge the dice scaling for Inq a bit (moving up from 1d8 to 1d10) so you'll actually be a little stronger in heroics.

Should be a nice boost As a reminder plz keep feedback civil or we can't really have a fun discussion :P

Here's some math comparing live inqui to proposed d10 200% scaling inqui throughout the leveling process.
Only taking into account standard ranged feats and the inqui tree itself, or else the math gets a bit exhaustive to keep up:

Level 1:

Live:
1d8 law die (1d4 vs lawful)

Proposed:
1d10 law die (1d4 vs lawful)

Level 2-3:
Level 3 can get access to Precise Shot, thus total 75 ranged power from archer's focus is possible.

Live:
2d8 law dice (2d4 vs lawful)
Average damage at 0 RP: 2*4.5*(1+0*1.5) = 9 average law damage per hit (5 vs lawful)
Average damage at 75 RP: 2*4.5*(1+0.75*1.5) = 19.125 average law damage per hit (10.625 vs lawful)

Proposed:
2d10 law dice (2d4 vs lawful)
Average damage at 0 RP: 2*5.5*(1+0*2) = 11 average law damage per hit (5 vs lawful)
Average damage at 75 RP: 2*5.5*(1+0.75*2) = 27.5 average law damage per hit (12.5 vs lawful)

Level 4-11:

Live:
3d8 law dice (3d4 vs lawful)
Average damage at 0 RP: 3*4.5*(1+0*1.5) = 13.5 average law damage per hit (7.5 vs lawful)
Average damage at 75 RP: 3*4.5*(1+0.75*1.5) = 28.6875 average law damage per hit (15.9375 vs lawful)

Proposed:
3d10 law dice (3d4 vs lawful)
Average damage at 0 RP: 3*5.5*(1+0*2) = 16.5 average law damage per hit (7.5 vs lawful)
Average damage at 75 RP: 3*5.5*(1+0.75*2) = 41.25 average law damage per hit (18.75 vs lawful)

Level 12-17:
+15 ranged power from No Holds Barred and the T5 Multi-selector (which are guaranteed takes on inquisitive builds).

Live:
Jaded:
5d8 law dice
Average damage at 15 RP: 5*4.5*(1+0.15*1.5) = 27.5625 average law damage per hit
Average damage at 90 RP: 5*4.5*(1+0.9*1.5) = 52.875 average law damage per hit

Optimistic:
7d8 law dice (7d4 vs lawful)
Average damage at 15 RP: 7*4.5*(1+0.15*1.5) = 38.5675 average law damage per hit (21.4375 vs lawful)
Average damage at 90 RP: 7*4.5*(1+0.9*1.5) = 74.025 average law damage per hit (41.125 vs lawful)

Vigilante:
6d8 chaotic dice (6d4 vs chaotic)
Average damage at 15 RP: 6*4.5*(1+0.15*1.5) = 33.075 average chaotic damage per hit (18.375 vs chaotic)
Average damage at 90 RP: 6*4.5*(1+0.9*1.5) = 63.45 average chaotic damage per hit (35.25 vs chaotic)

Proposed:
Jaded:
5d10 law dice
Average damage at 15 RP: 5*5.5*(1+0.15*2) = 35.75 average law damage per hit
Average damage at 90 RP: 5*5.5*(1+0.9*2) = 77 average law damage per hit

Optimistic:
6d10 law dice (6d4 vs lawful)
Average damage at 15 RP: 6*5.5*(1+0.15*2) = 42.9 average law damage per hit (19.5 vs lawful)
Average damage at 90 RP: 6*5.5*(1+0.9*2) = 92.4 average law damage per hit (42 vs lawful)

Vigilante:
5d10 chaotic dice (5d4 vs chaotic)
Average damage at 15 RP: 5*5.5*(1+0.15*2) = 35.75 average chaotic damage per hit (16.25 vs chaotic)
Average damage at 90 RP: 5*5.5*(1+0.9*2) = 77 average chaotic damage per hit (35 vs chaotic)

Level 18-19:
+10 ranged power from 5th core.

Live:
Jaded:
8d8 law dice
Average damage at 25 RP: 8*4.5*(1+0.25*1.5) = 49.5 average law damage per hit
Average damage at 100 RP: 8*4.5*(1+1*1.5) = 90 average law damage per hit

Optimistic:
10d8 law dice (10d4 vs lawful)
Average damage at 25 RP: 10*4.5*(1+0.25*1.5) = 61.875 average law damage per hit (34.375 vs lawful)
Average damage at 100 RP: 10*4.5*(1+1*1.5) = 112.5 average law damage per hit (62.5 vs lawful)

Vigilante:
9d8 chaotic dice (9d4 vs chaotic)
Average damage at 25 RP: 9*4.5*(1+0.25*1.5) = 55.6875 average chaotic damage per hit (30.9375 vs chaotic)
Average damage at 100 RP: 9*4.5*(1+1*1.5) = 101.25 average chaotic damage per hit (56.25 vs chaotic)

Proposed:
Jaded:
6d10 law dice
Average damage at 25 RP: 6*5.5*(1+0.25*2) = 49.5 average law damage per hit
Average damage at 100 RP: 6*5.5*(1+1*2) = 99 average law damage per hit

Optimistic:
7d10 law dice (7d4 vs lawful)
Average damage at 25 RP: 7*5.5*(1+0.25*2) = 57.75 average law damage per hit (26.25 vs lawful)
Average damage at 100 RP: 7*5.5*(1+1*2) = 115.5 average law damage per hit (52.5 vs lawful)

Vigilante:
6d10 chaotic dice (6d4 vs chaotic)
Average damage at 25 RP: 6*5.5*(1+0.25*2) = 49.5 average chaotic damage per hit (22.5 vs chaotic)
Average damage at 100 RP: 6*5.5*(1+1*2) = 99 average chaotic damage per hit (45 vs chaotic)

Level 20:
+10 ranged power from capstone.

Live:
Jaded:
12d8 law dice
Average damage at 35 RP: 12*4.5*(1+0.35*1.5) = 82.35 average law damage per hit
Average damage at 110 RP: 12*4.5*(1+1.1*1.5) = 143.1 average law damage per hit

Optimistic:
14d8 law dice (14d4 vs lawful)
Average damage at 35 RP: 14*4.5*(1+0.35*1.5) = 96.075 average law damage per hit (53.375 vs lawful)
Average damage at 110 RP: 14*4.5*(1+1.1*1.5) = 166.95 average law damage per hit (92.75 vs lawful)

Vigilante:
13d8 chaotic dice (13d4 vs chaotic)
Average damage at 35 RP: 13*4.5*(1+0.35*1.5) = 89.2125 average chaotic damage per hit (49.5625 vs chaotic)
Average damage at 110 RP: 13*4.5*(1+1.1*1.5) = 155.025 average chaotic damage per hit (86.125 vs chaotic)

Proposed:
Jaded:
7d10 law dice
Average damage at 35 RP: 7*5.5*(1+0.35*2) = 65.45 average law damage per hit
Average damage at 110 RP: 7*5.5*(1+1.1*2) = 123.2 average law damage per hit

Optimistic:
8d10 law dice (8d4 vs lawful)
Average damage at 35 RP: 8*5.5*(1+0.35*2) = 74.8 average law damage per hit (34 vs lawful)
Average damage at 110 RP: 8*5.5*(1+1.1*2) = 140.8 average law damage per hit (64 vs lawful)

Vigilante:
7d10 chaotic dice (7d4 vs chaotic)
Average damage at 35 RP: 7*5.5*(1+0.35*2) = 65.45 average chaotic damage per hit (29.75 vs chaotic)
Average damage at 110 RP: 7*5.5*(1+1.1*2) = 123.2 average chaotic damage per hit (56 vs chaotic)


Essentially a slight buff in heroics up to level 17 for all styles, roughly similar for Jaded and Optimistic in 18-19, slight nerf for Vigilante in 18-19, and at 20 nerf for all styles when ONLY looking at standard ranged feats and the inqui tree itself.

Math above doesn't take into account ranged power and/or imbue die you can get from some non-standard feats (shot on the run, weapon focus), other enhancement trees, and items.

Also at 20 you also get access to things like filigrees which can give a lot more RP and some imbue die. For instance just two Reverberation filigrees can give you +2 imbue die (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...e8#post6550824), which makes Jaded better than before at base RP from inqui, and makes Optimistic and Vigilante very close to before at low RP, better at higher RP (at least for targets that aren't taking the d4's).

Personally I think the proposed is good, only change I would suggest is maybe making Vigilante give +2 die instead of +1, since it still suffers from dealing d4's to some enemies, otherwise Jaded is just the better option (same dice, same damage die, no decrease to any enemy type).

[Artos_Fabril]

Here's some math comparing live inqui to proposed d10 200% scaling inqui throughout the leveling process.
Only taking into account standard ranged feats and the inqui tree itself, or else the math gets a bit exhaustive to keep up:

Level 2-3:
Level 3 can get access to Precise Shot, thus total 75 ranged power from archer's focus is possible.

Some Inq builds get Prceise Shot at level 1, but more importantly...

It is disingenuous at best the claim 75 RP at all times from Archer's Focus, as most of the time it will be granting 0-10 RP. There just aren't a lot of spots in the game you can plant your feet for 3 seconds and then fire off 15 shots without having to run forward to catch up with the group or run backwards to kite. Yet moreso if you aren't using perch spots.

[SWCarter]

Is there a reason why Scion of the Shadowfell is not also receiving the +3 imbue dice bonus? This is yet another hit to Abyss warlocks, in addition to the loss of +3 dice since Celestial Spirit form is not compatible with their undead form.

[Talnar00]

Some Inq builds get Prceise Shot at level 1, but more importantly...

It is disingenuous at best the claim 75 RP at all times from Archer's Focus, as most of the time it will be granting 0-10 RP. There just aren't a lot of spots in the game you can plant your feet for 3 seconds and then fire off 15 shots without having to run forward to catch up with the group or run backwards to kite. Yet moreso if you aren't using perch spots.

There's a reason I did the math for 0 RP/whatever the lowest standing RP for just inqui tree instead of just math on AF RP levels. I'm not claiming that you'll have 75 RP from AF all the time, just showing what the range from lowest standing to full AF.

And honestly for most of heroics, even with 0 RP, the proposed changes are a buff.

[Lotoc]

Really hope u57 gets a third pass and a week or two more to sort stuff out.
Cause right now we're at a point that law on your side/inquisitive has hijacked the entire imbue overhaul, become the defacto best imbue build and a bunch of other imbues as of this moment are going to be left undertuned and broken on release because they didn't have players complaining incessantly enough
Like every imbue with melee/ranged power scaling needs to be at 200%
Vile chemist isn't scaling with spellpower at all.
Henshin Mystic is being underserved by its own imbue because its being rebalanced for two weapon fighting
Sets granting imbue dice are unwieldly.
And myriad other issues.

I really don't feel right about a universal tree getting a stronger imbue than AA, EK and VC and the wednesday stream implying a release next week.
It has been bad enough having khyber players calling you mentally invalid for playing an EK as anything but tiefling but we're en route for "why isn't your EK using crossbows, stop trolling and play a real build." "Imbues are worthless for melee its for inquis only" and other such gems.

[ivorycoaster]

Really hope u57 gets a third pass and a week or two more to sort stuff out.
Cause right now we're at a point that law on your side/inquisitive has hijacked the entire imbue overhaul, become the defacto best imbue build and a bunch of other imbues as of this moment are going to be left undertuned and broken on release because they didn't have players complaining incessantly enough
Like every imbue with melee/ranged power scaling needs to be at 200%
Vile chemist isn't scaling with spellpower at all.
Henshin Mystic is being underserved by its own imbue because its being rebalanced for two weapon fighting
Sets granting imbue dice are unwieldly.
And myriad other issues.

I really don't feel right about a universal tree getting a stronger imbue than AA, EK and VC and the wednesday stream implying a release next week.
It has been bad enough having khyber players calling you mentally invalid for playing an EK as anything but tiefling but we're en route for "why isn't your EK using crossbows, stop trolling and play a real build." "Imbues are worthless for melee its for inquis only" and other such gems.

I think since you mentioned henshin mystic it's worth noting that this was a great opportunity to bump up shintao monk's oppressively low DPS. while henshin got an iconic and BARB got an iconic handwraps build, shintao monk has really been the forgotten child and the tree has gone long stagnant. I think adding an elemental imbue to the elemental trees that are separate from the stances, and adding dice to the tree and the form upgrades could have really helped that, while light the candle still functioned properly with 2 handed fighting.

At any rate, I hope we have another week and a half or so to talk about these things. Definitely hope that the elite running inquisitives have been appeased enough to not completely hijack the conversation further.. the build optimizers are already going to have a field day with that.

[Fisto_Mk_I]

As is true with having multiple imbues active from different trees, these procs are almost completely ineffective at any mid difficulty content.

Pal, you just don't know about you say. They so "ineffective" that all top-builder like Jing, Carpone or Epicsoul include it in they top-damage high-reaper and raid builds. Why? Because they just BiS.

On the same token, even in that build you would see more damage from more ranged power or more doubleshot.

You totally missed point here. I already have max possible RP/Doubleshot here (from 14 filigree slot) AND additional +16d6 flat damage. After U57 with current implementation this damage just missed.

Especially if you are maxing out your SCALING +to damage stats such as dex, deadly. It is VERY easy to get 8 or 9 filigree slots. 4 slot artifacts are abundant now and 5 slots in a sent weapon is like 20k. If you were to have 7, you could run 2 raid ranged power, 2 spines RP rare, 2 crackshot ranged power rare and 1 crackshot attack and damage. That's +65 ranged power. You would see a more increase in your overall DPS. They aren't making these changes just to screw over someone who has 6k sent xp on their weapon and 3k on an artifact.

Yea, yea, i have 14 filigree slot, and my setup for 8 Perfect Artifact/Weapon slot include 2 Crackshot Negotiator RP (rare) +2 more Negotiator filigree on weapon for same 65 RP you mention and 5 DS you missed. But currently, as i say before, i have 56 average flat damage from 2 filigree slot. After, i have only 2 DI, for Monk it's mean 2d6 (2d8 for Drow) Poison or 2d6 fire +2d6 force on crit, scaled with 100% RP/MP. Take the best - 2d8 dice, average 9 damage.

56/9 = 6.33, so i need have 633 RP only to gain what i lose with this nerf. Max available RP for highly optimized Carpone's ranged builds, irc, about 369 (include reaper tree).

Am I expounding?

For me it means that all non-casters imbue must scaled at least 150-200% MP/RP, not 100%, just to previously worked filigree set was not (so heavily) nerfed.

Yeah, sure, maybe it's a slight nerf to that filigree function. It's a nerf to a barely viable damage option is my point and that is exactly why I said those "Empty words." I guess I'll just keep my mouth shut, because every time I offer someone a solution that would give them more damage post update than they had pre update, they just continue to complain..

Slight? Oh, pal... you just try play white knight here, it's obviously for all who really use this filigree set. Just re-read Droid327 answer to me - he already nailed problem with this 2pc set nerf. Later, SpartanKiller13 say almost same thing...

And sorry, pal, you not offer any solution, you just offer play to absolutely other builds. Good for any who ready change they current build to something absolutely different, not good for any who want keep play with builds they love.

[TueNictGut]

Really hope u57 gets a third pass and a week or two more to sort stuff out.
Cause right now we're at a point that law on your side/inquisitive has hijacked the entire imbue overhaul, become the defacto best imbue build.

Signed
Pls give some love to melee builds,
atm. the proposed imbue changes are most valuable for ranged builds (inquis, starthrowers) and Ek and Da which are essentialy casters.
Maybe Tuning up mp scaling across the board would help

Furthermore i want to pronounce, that chartago must be destroyed and melee ninja and harper t5 could be improved greatly by imbue changes

[Tilomere]

So I have spent much of the last two days trying to work out builds on Lamania that will use the imbue system, and it all boils down to one major flaw in it. IMBUES DON" CRIT. The builds I was playing with had some decent base numbers. I was using the EK tree, and getting over 28 Die added on, and using boosts and self buffs, could get hits for over 8K on every hit. To get that, you sacrifice Ranged Power, and there is no easy way to say it, but a Ranged Power build at end game, will do more DPS than an imbue build, because of things like crits, and because of abilities that bump your next attack.

I based my "non-crit" info on the fact that I never saw one, and the fact that on preview one, it was asked if they would, and that question went unanswered. The imbue system seemed like it was going to be very fun to play, and I was looking forward to trying out different builds, but I'm sorry to say, that I can't see me playing this at end game at all.

Change the imbue system so that when your weapon crits, your imbue crits, and these have the the potential to be very solid builds, as well as being very fun to play.

Ahh so still not enough for weapon imbues. That's unfortunate. The warlock imbue can crit on eldritch blast. Why don't you try that at same +28 die?

[ivorycoaster]

Pal, you just don't know about you say. They so "ineffective" that all top-builder like Jing, Carpone or Epicsoul include it in they top-damage high-reaper and raid builds. Why? Because they just BiS.



You totally missed point here. I already have max possible RP/Doubleshot here (from 14 filigree slot) AND additional +16d6 flat damage. After U57 with current implementation this damage just missed.



Yea, yea, i have 14 filigree slot, and my setup for 8 Perfect Artifact/Weapon slot include 2 Crackshot Negotiator RP (rare) +2 more Negotiator filigree on weapon for same 65 RP you mention and 5 DS you missed. But currently, as i say before, i have 56 average flat damage from 2 filigree slot. After, i have only 2 DI, for Monk it's mean 2d6 (2d8 for Drow) Poison or 2d6 fire +2d6 force on crit, scaled with 100% RP/MP. Take the best - 2d8 dice, average 9 damage.

56/9 = 6.33, so i need have 633 RP only to gain what i lose with this nerf. Max available RP for highly optimized Carpone's ranged builds, irc, about 369 (include reaper tree).

Am I expounding?

For me it means that all non-casters imbue must scaled at least 150-200% MP/RP, not 100%, just to previously worked filigree set was not (so heavily) nerfed.



Slight? Oh, pal... you just try play white knight here, it's obviously for all who really use this filigree set. Just re-read Droid327 answer to me - he already nailed problem with this 2pc set nerf. Later, SpartanKiller13 say almost same thing...

And sorry, pal, you not offer any solution, you just offer play to absolutely other builds. Good for any who ready change they current build to something absolutely different, not good for any who want keep play with builds they love.

I seriously wonder if you talk to people like this face to face. it's the keyboard equivelant of poking your finger in someone's chest and is extremely condescending and disrespectful. maybe I misread your post, but regardless; i stand by what I said earlier, that it's a pretty insignificant damage source. I don't think losing that non scaling damage is going to hurt either you or carpone's build by even .5% of your dps. i'm done responding to anyone on here unless its "yes i agree."

[LurkingVeteran]

Most in this thread seem to argue over balance details in heroics. The main problem with Imbues is that imbues still do not scale as well into epic content.

The reasons for this are:
1) Elemental/Poison damage get reduced reaper scaling and monster resistances subtracted before MP/SP scaling is applied (unless this was changed recently, Lynnabel said it was being looked into). This means that a mere 30pt elemental resistance that e.g. some demons have will already on low reaper turn into an effective 90pt, resulting in e.g. 25 D6 imbue die turning into 0 damage.

2) A large part of epic damage comes from special attacks like Hunt's End that scale crit profile. Since Imbue do not crit they do not benefit from this. I am not sure if imbues even benefit from the +200% scaling of "damage" scaling on Hunt's End. I think a better system would be to reduce MP/SP scaling of imbues and make them use the crit multiplier of the attack like other damage.

3) The elemental/poison ones additionally suffer from immunity.

The way things are going I expect the imbue pass to result in power creep in heroics, but still nearly useless end game.

[LurkingVeteran]

The post below I think touches upon these problems, although does not explain why crits are so important.

The reason why Crits are important to the imbues is that without them, in higher reaper, your damage becomes insignificant.

People build characters for the most part 3 different ways.

1) to level and gain a past life. Normally optimized for speed.
2) for end game. can often make leveling in heroic a bit slower, but it's a build that will be great at end game.
3) for flavor. Maybe you want to play a small shield build, go for it, have fun.

Currently, I have an alchemist shooter on live, using Inquis and VC to add supplemental damage. This is not an end game character, doesn't have completionist in anything, its just a character I got to 30 and he stays there, if my main is off leveling, and I want to participate in casual raids with the guild there he sits, ready to go. I recently ran into a R10 quest with some guild people who wanted to play, and this was the only capped character that i could play. This character, even not fully maximized can hit 7-8K crits in R10 using his big damage clicks. His poison imbue become almost insignificant.

My main character on Lamania, with the gear set that i built in just a few hours, was over 900 SP and boosting to over 1100 in reaper, was able to get 8K hits in town, while using bosots. In reaper, those numbers were in the low 100 range. Because i focued on imbues, and not RP, my crits for my base damage never got very high, i think the highest I saw was about 2K.

This isn't the definition of power creep.

There will always be those players, you can call them the elitist or the min maxers, it doesnt matter, there will always be that group of people who find a way to tweak the system just enough, to be able to pull off amazing things, hooray for them. For the average player, which I am probably one of, losing DPS is bad. I don't know what crits are now for spells/melee/ranged, by which i mean that I dont know what multiplier is used, but with a multiplier of 0 imbue damage in higher reaper is bad.

With all that being said, I don't have to agree with the changes, or even like the changes. I like the game, and I will find a way to adapt, and keep playing. I just don't see myself playing a build that relies upon imbues for end game content.

Not sure if this is referring to issue 1) mobs with poison resistance? or 2) special attack damage scaling, but could be both.

[LurkingVeteran]

Besides that, since no melee/ranged or spell power scaling multipliers were divulged, it is impossible to predict how OP these things will be in Heroics. The only thing I know from reading this is that paladin is still 200%, and inq is now 200%. I have no idea what the scaling of the other MP/RP ones are (new monk, bard, barb imbues etc), or what weapon restrictions are in place on using the imbue toggles (e.g. Bow for AA Force Arrow?).

The only valid data is from those that actually test the builds on Lam.

Generally, it would make sense if all MP/RP imbues were 200% since that compares better to spell power. Spell power still has an edge (at least in heroics), but with MP/RP you get to scale physical weapon damage as well, so that is probably reasonable.

[macubrae]

I seriously wonder if you talk to people like this face to face. it's the keyboard equivelant of poking your finger in someone's chest and is extremely condescending and disrespectful. maybe I misread your post, but regardless; i stand by what I said earlier, that it's a pretty insignificant damage source. I don't think losing that non scaling damage is going to hurt either you or carpone's build by even .5% of your dps. i'm done responding to anyone on here unless its "yes i agree."

So you are looking for a "yes man" instead of a discussion, what a Dev thing to say.

[Lotoc]

Most in this thread seem to argue over balance details in heroics. The main problem with Imbues is that imbues still do not scale as well into epic content.

The reasons for this are:
1) Elemental/Poison damage get reduced reaper scaling and monster resistances subtracted before MP/SP scaling is applied (unless this was changed recently, Lynnabel said it was being looked into). This means that a mere 30pt elemental resistance that e.g. some demons have will already on low reaper turn into an effective 90pt, resulting in e.g. 25 D6 imbue die turning into 0 damage.

2) A large part of epic damage comes from special attacks like Hunt's End that scale crit profile. Since Imbue do not crit they do not benefit from this. I am not sure if imbues even benefit from the +200% scaling of "damage" scaling on Hunt's End. I think a better system would be to reduce MP/SP scaling of imbues and make them use the crit multiplier of the attack like other damage.

3) The elemental/poison ones additionally suffer from immunity.

The way things are going I expect the imbue pass to result in power creep in heroics, but still nearly useless end game.

Except again, Eldritch Knight right this moment on live is one of like the top 5 melee DPS builds entirely off of scaling their imbue damage and Assassin rogue which scales heavily with sneak attack dice (which don't crit either) is notoriously the highest single target dps build in the game.

[Fisto_Mk_I]

Generally, it would make sense if all MP/RP imbues were 200% since that compares better to spell power.

Seems correct for me.

[ivorycoaster]

Most in this thread seem to argue over balance details in heroics. The main problem with Imbues is that imbues still do not scale as well into epic content.

The reasons for this are:
1) Elemental/Poison damage get reduced reaper scaling and monster resistances subtracted before MP/SP scaling is applied (unless this was changed recently, Lynnabel said it was being looked into). This means that a mere 30pt elemental resistance that e.g. some demons have will already on low reaper turn into an effective 90pt, resulting in e.g. 25 D6 imbue die turning into 0 damage.

2) A large part of epic damage comes from special attacks like Hunt's End that scale crit profile. Since Imbue do not crit they do not benefit from this. I am not sure if imbues even benefit from the +200% scaling of "damage" scaling on Hunt's End. I think a better system would be to reduce MP/SP scaling of imbues and make them use the crit multiplier of the attack like other damage.

3) The elemental/poison ones additionally suffer from immunity.

The way things are going I expect the imbue pass to result in power creep in heroics, but still nearly useless end game.

I would argue that immunity is the bigger issue, because as someone else said, a well built EK is a top tier single target dps build (although, that is in raids and not r10..) I run EK on my main almost exclusively now that I have racial comp, and the only thing that gives me a little bit of immunity workaround is really the sonic scion, which we are losing, and fatesinger epic strike. All 3 of the top burst AOE caster builds just have built in immunity bypass. It would be really nice to see AA and EK get at least a single target immunity bypass. VC gets it in tier 2 of their tree. It's long overdue. Core 18, tier 5 to require high investment is a reasonable place (tier 2 is a bit early IMO.) Core 18 for EK, tier 5 for AA.
The ability to grab a multiselector that bypasses one type of elemental immunity would MUCH change the approachability of the playstyle and also give wizard a high investment option for immune bypass, which they currently don't have.

I did hear in the facebook stream- Severlin mentioned something that I can only assume was about looking at this scaling in reaper, hopefully that is true because it has always been a problem for EK in high reaper content. Our damage gets relegated to proportionately very little.. It's almost sad to have 1100+spellpower and be hitting for ~200 a swing.

At any rate, I would also love if they did something to allow crits on elemental based imbues, although it might be more balanced based on spell crit/multiplier. This might be SUPER complicated coding though, defeating the whole purpose of reducing back end lag that this update represents.

So you are looking for a "yes man" instead of a discussion, what a Dev thing to say.

No, rather just common decency. People tend to get really passive aggressive, or resort to name calling very quickly in these forums. It is very easy to respond with opinions or points without being disrespectful. Even your response implies something negative. I have been a bartender for 15 years, people do not resort to this kind of behavior face to face in a regular conversation unless they are drunk or they know someone really well. And if those kinds of responses are made to people they don't know, in person, they tend to escalate. I also don't see a majority of people act this way in game nearly as often; the in game community is very respectful and polite a majority of the time in my experience.

[Lotoc]

It may be appropriate to add a four set bonus to the voltaic experiment filigree set for imbue dice, the filigree set itself is kind of built around AAs/EKs/magical imbues being a set centered around spellpower and doublestrike/shot so it'd be pretty fitting to solidify Voltaic Experiment for the role it already is trying to fit.

[VinoeWhines]

Changes from first preview are in this green!

With Update 57 we are embarking on a series of global overhauls that aim to streamline and shake up the game and bring new cohesion across multiple builds. The Imbue system is one such overhaul and aims to drastically change how players approach certain builds, as well as open up a large variety of fun, flavorful, and powerful new ones. But enough talk - let's see the details!



Rogue:

• (Assassin Tier 1) 1d8 Poison, melee or ranged power (note this swapped places with Toxin Affinity which is now tier 2)
• (Assassin - Toxin Affinity) moves to t2 (swaps with imbue), +1/2/3 dice

Your thoughts, questions, suggestions are always welcome!

Instead of 1d8 Poison, it would match better(1d8 Untyped/Force) with Dark Imbuement's Untyped Damage, since Poison is often resisted in game.

Dark Imbuement: Your Epic Strike now imbues your weapons with Evil energies for 10s: You deal 1d6 per Sneak Attack Dice in Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force Spell Power if its higher).

(This is not working either)Heart Seeker Poison Strikes: Fort DC 10 + half Rogue level + INT modifier negates(half Rogue level? too low)
I would think a DC: 10/15/20 + Rogue level + INT modifier negates, +1/2/3/ dice


Does someone have an example of what the proposed imbue "Toxin Affinity" +3 dice does?
Class being level 20/+12 Rogue?

Scion of the Astral/Ethereal Plane should also get the Imbue Untyped damage dice as well, like the other Legendary Feats that get it(+3 dice).