U57 Preview 1: Imbue Overhaul

[Tilomere]

Monk:

• (Henshin Mystic) Each core grants +1 Dice

Ranger: (Elf AA)

• (Arcane Archer) Tiers 2, 3, 4, and 5 grant +2 Dice each

Rogue:

• (Assassin Tier 1) 1d8 Poison, melee or ranged power (note this swapped places with Toxin Affinity which is now tier 2)
• (Assassin - Toxin Affinity) moves to t2 (swaps with imbue), +1/2/3 dice

Wizard:

• (Eldritch Knight Core 2) 1d8 Fire/Cold/Acid/Electric, appropriate Spell Power (they get all 4 elements)
• (EK Core 2) +1 Dice per 3 Wizard levels, max 6

Universal:

• (Inquisitive) Core 4 +1 dice each
• (Inquisitive) Tier 2, 4 grant +1 dice each

Feats:

• (Enhanced Elemental Dice - Destiny Feat) +1 Dice
• Scion of X +3 Dice

Destinies:[*]Draconic Tier 3 now grants +1/2/3 Dice[/LIST]

Items:

• Filigree Set Bonuses that used to give a scaling imbue on-hit now give +1 Dice
• Augments from Hunt or Be Hunted Raid now give +1 Enhancement bonus to bonus Dice
• Certain Set Bonuses get +1 Dice in heroics, 2 in epics, 3 in legendary (artifact typed):
  Scroll: House C: The spell Elemental Weapons now grants +1 alchemical bonus to Imbue Dice
  

Embodiment of Law: +2% doublestrike and doubleshot. If you are lawful, you also gain +2 imbue dice

• Several ED abilities now have Imbue Dice:
• Shared Mantle in PA now also grants +3 Imbue Dice while within the PA Mantle

15 wiz 3 monk 2 rogue Helf/Elf
AP +21, Feats +6, Destinies +6, Items +4-8

AP: +21 Die
Racial AP: Unlock AA
6 AP NiS Extra Shurikens dex to hit/dmg
6 HeM +2 Die
32 AA +8 Die
8 Ass +3 Die
6 EK +5 Die
22 + 1 Univ Tome Inq +3 Die

Feats: +6 Die
Enhanced Elemental Die +1 Die
Scion +3 Die
Law +2 Die

Destinies: +6
Draconic +3 Die
Primal Avatar +3 Die
(Shiradi needed 3rd for WW)

Items: 4-8
Augment 1
Set 3
Filigree +0-3 (depending on # slots used)
Scroll: UMD 0 - 1

Where are you getting 40 dice?

Maybe that helps. I just looked at the thread, and 10k imbue DPS popped into my head. (More for bosses because you can Dust+Ooze death auras, vacuum + shattered weapon).

[ivorycoaster]

15 wiz 3 monk 2 rogue Helf/Elf
AP +21, Feats +7, Destinies +7, Items +4-7

AP: +21 Die
Racial AP: Unlock AA
6 AP NiS Extra Shurikens Dex hit/dmg
6 HeM +2 Die
32 AA +8 Die
8 Ass +3 Die
6 EK +5 Die
22 + 1 Univ Tome Inq +3 Die

Feats: +7 Die
Enhanced Elemental Die +1 Die
Scion +3 Die
Offhand Versatility +1 Die
Law +2 Die

Destinies: +7
Draconic +3 Die
Primal Avatar +3 Die
LD +1 Die

Items: 4-7
Augment 1
Set 3
Filigree +0-3 (depending on # slots used)




Maybe that helps. I just looked at the thread, and 10k imbue DPS popped into my head. (More for bosses because you can Dust+Ooze death auras, vacuum + shattered weapon).

Can always count on Tilomere to max out a build number! This is what I am trying to convey to people, that although things might change slightly they can still find other, highly likely more viable, options to their imbue based builds. Inquis, for example, is more or less best run on rogue anyway due to sneak dice. a 2 rogue splash is basically a given considering it's commonly the primary class.

So, available at level 2, you have 3 dice right there. That's big. Sounds like you can get way more dice by around level 4 than you could previously in heroics.

[droid327]

You can add 75 RP from Archers Focus and you have the balance. Dont forget to dance

The 75 RP I already included WAS from AF...

Don't forget to facepalm

[droid327]

Where are you getting 40 dice?
15 Wizard is 5
2 Rogue is 3
3 Monk is...2 or 3 ish? depending on where you go

....the other 30 dice is....?

He specified shuriken so I'm guessing he meant 10d8 die plus doubleshot plus monk extra shot plus drow extra shot, for 40 effective die per attack cycle. A bit of hyperbole.

[Stravix]

15 wiz 3 monk 2 rogue Helf/Elf
AP +21, Feats +7, Destinies +7, Items +4-7

*snip*


Maybe that helps. I just looked at the thread, and 10k imbue DPS popped into my head. (More for bosses because you can Dust+Ooze death auras, vacuum + shattered weapon).

That... sounds absolutely stupid.

I love it.

EDIT: Fun fact, if you remove the 3 die from Inquis, the build is even first life possible. at 18 from AP, 7 from feats, 7 from EDs, and 7 from items, you can still hit 40d8 die in spellsword

[Coffey]

Tbf, five of those six die come at 18 and 20, so they don't play much role in heroic leveling

But I think the answer is to apply your die to a different imbue that scales on spell power. Also then you can go optimistic instead of jaded for an extra die. 9d8 (ie at 18 with current die)@75RP*200% = 101.25...6d8 (ie 18 in the new scheme)@100% SP needs 375 spell power to give the same added damage. Not peanuts but definitely doable.

This does still shaft inquis without a spell power imbue in their class, though. /2 arti won't do it since arti gets theirs in T3...so rogue and ranger inqui are kinda SOL...

You can add 75 RP from Archers Focus and you have the balance. Dont forget to dance

The 75 RP I already included WAS from AF...

Don't forget to facepalm

You werent very clear about 75 RP was from AF or standing RP in your little math formula.

75 standing RP at 18 is HIGHLY optimistic (my initial math used a still-optimistic 45), so the actual Spell Power needed should be even lower, and very doable.

Dont forget to dance

[Lotoc]

I don't have time to read every post in these longer threads so I do appreciate you pulling the info from whichever page that was on.

This explains why changes were desired, but it doesn't explain why dice were completely cut and not added back in using the methods Lynn calls out. I'm perfectly fine with scaling the dice back proportionately to compensate for the return to 200% scaling. That flat out needed to happen in a uniform imbue system for fairly obvious balancing reasons. And I think it would have been kind of silly to add the missing dice back to the base imbue (like Lynn mentions) as this would end up with like 4-5 imbue dice at level 2 for Inqs.

But surely there is a way to add back the proportional dice purely for true Inquisitors? If the issue is the people splashing Inq. then lets return pure Inq's back to where they were before this in a way that splashes cannot take advantage of instead of punishing people who play the pure Inquisitor.

This all seems very straightforward if this is the concern.

Do you consider a barbarian using a falchion with 41 points in vistani "splashing" vistani?
Would you consider a Shuri monk with 41 points in inquisitive "splashing" inquisitive?
That's the issue. The only real work around while maintaining inquisitive having so many dice as a universal tree is that you only gain some of the dice while wielding a crossbow but then we end up with the scenario where people call you mentally invalid for not being a crossbow paladin/ek/rogue and thinking you can play melee.

[Artos_Fabril]

Do you consider a barbarian using a falchion with 41 points in vistani "splashing" vistani?
Would you consider a Shuri monk with 41 points in inquisitive "splashing" inquisitive?

Why not? Tilo's "Shuri Monk" above splashes 15wiz levels

[Lotoc]

Why not? Tilo's "Shuri Monk" above splashes 15wiz levels

there's a difference between spending class levels for an enhancement tree class bonuses and a universal tree invalidating your class choices because it's just better.

[misterski]

6 AP NiS Extra Shurikens Dex hit/dmg



Offhand Versatility +1 Die

The extra shuriken from the Ninja Spy Core 2 requires you to be centered so it's not compatible with the orb for offhand versatility. Have to decide between +1 imbue dice or extra shuriiken per throw.

[droid327]

Here's another thought...

Is Elemental Weapons scroll going to become pro forma for any Imbue build that isnt a 2-hander? Since you can scroll it with your weapon in the offhand. Its only 5 mins duration though, so that could be annoying...but the extra die could be too significant to pass up

Anytime you strongly incentivize people into an annoying behavior, its bad design and irritates everyone. IDK if the answer is to make EW a rare scroll/make it UMD:0 so its Arti only, or by increasing the caster level on the scroll to 10 or something so its enough to last through most quests.

Also, giving the extra die to SWF over THF might be acceptable...but giving it to throwers over Bow and Xbow builds seems a little more unfair.

You werent very clear about 75 RP was from AF or standing RP in your little math formula.

There arent many sources for RP for DXB in Heroic, so yeah, that 75 RP is the grand majority of whatever your total standing RP is

[Artos_Fabril]

...but giving it to throwers over Bow and Xbow builds seems a little more unfair.

Can you even put throwing weapons in the offhand? Or do you mean using the scroll on your offhand weapon to get the effect on your thrower (a la Celestia)?

There arent many sources for RP for DXB in Heroic, so yeah, that 75 RP is the grand majority of whatever your total standing RP is

Emphasis on the word standing. There aren't a lot of places in Heroic where you aren't going to be moving at full zerg speed forward, or full kite speed backward. Factoring the full 75RP from Archers' Focus is beyond generous.

[DRoark]

Yes, the particular fiction you invented doesn't make sense. Is that supposed to prove something? Wolverine's powers don't work that way. But there easily could be a character who does work that way!

The mechanics make sense in terms of game balance. They're linked because it makes sense to limit depth of power, while providing breadth of options. That's all that really matters. It's trivial to come up with a good faith fictional explanation if that's what you care about.

Accepting "Because magic!" for everything blindly, is trivial, and requires zero thought. Is that supposed to prove somerhing?
By that reasoning, you couldn't apply two metamagics at once. They're in the same classification, and are a toggle.

HG: C'mon Harry! Blast him!
HP: I can't, he's too far away, and if I use Enlarge my power drops!

...............................

You're right though! There COULD be a hero that works that way! Cuzitz Magicman. He's got every power, but severe amnesia and can only remember them one at a time. )

-------------------------

Just tell us how that extra +1 to hit, or 3% DS, compares to a mechanic (requiring zero EPL), that adds (+40) DICE to an attack.

Magic? Thought so. Sorry, that's already been used. With the current system, needing the old EPL toggles doen't hold weight.

[dkyle]

Accepting "Because magic!" for everything blindly, is trivial, and requires zero thought. Is that supposed to prove somerhing?
By that reasoning, you couldn't apply two metamagics at once. They're in the same classification, and are a toggle.

No, my reasoning is that mechanics should be designed for their own sake, not to fit some random person's head fiction, mine or yours. I'm just suggesting possible fictional explanations for mechanics, since you seem to be hung up on that. I'm absolutely not saying that other mechanics need to change to fit that fiction. There's no reason why magic or whatever else couldn't apply differently to different things in the fiction of DDO.

Metamagics work differently from EPL and IPL toggles, for mechanical (and legacy PnP) reasons. They have an active cost (normally), so they balance differently from EPL/IPLs that have no cost once earned. It's also trivial to say that the magic they represent (putting more "spell points" into the spell, whatever they are) works differently in the fiction from the magic behind EPL and IPL toggles.

HG: C'mon Harry! Blast him!
HP: I can't, he's too far away, and if I use Enlarge my power drops!

That could be an entirely sensible fiction and game mechanic. It just happens to not be what DDO uses.

Just tell us how that extra +1 to hit, or 3% DS, compares to a mechanic (requiring zero EPL), that adds (+40) DICE to an attack.

Magic? Thought so. Sorry, that's already been used. With the current system, needing the old EPL toggles doen't hold weight.

Those dice come from a bunch of different build options all getting stacked together. It's not comparable to a single EPL benefit.

Is +40 dice too much? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not saying anything about that.

[Artos_Fabril]

there's a difference between spending class levels for an enhancement tree class bonuses and a universal tree invalidating your class choices because it's just better.

You mean like every Bow-using HW ranger or DXB full inquis?

Where's the line between "using it because it's better" and "using it because it's better for your playstyle"?

[DRoark]

It's not comparable to a single EPL benefit.

I agree on that point. You're right, it's NOT comparable.

Most of the EPL bonuses are so far down the scale, they don't warrant a toggle.

[Tilomere]

The extra shuriken from the Ninja Spy Core 2 requires you to be centered so it's not compatible with the orb for offhand versatility. Have to decide between +1 imbue dice or extra shuriiken per throw.

Good call I rushed that too much. Also have to drop LD +1 for Shiradi WW.

The dex to damage requires being centered. The extra shuriken does not.

Would be higher dps to be centered ... until you get hit by a polar ray. Let's be centered and drop down a die and drop down and die.

It is weird to have Lynnabel promote this, since it promotes build sprawl across a wide amount of enhancement trees, which my fuzzy memory says he was against.

With 3 monk levels for shurikens, then 3 wizard levels for an imbue, this means shuriken throwers go plaid at 6 when sorcs get fireball. That's fair.

[Shall]

Still chewing through this thread but..

Would it be too much to just make the monk stances give an imbue for their relevant element? Then give the punches a +Dice per tier?

Example:
Forms would give you 1d6 Base
Adept would give +1 Dice
Master would give +1 Dice
Grand Master would give +1 Dice

Then Air Punch I would give +1 Dice when used for just that one strike. Air Punch II would give +2 Dice, III +3 and IV +4.

Total if running in GM Wind Stance and punching with Air IV would be 8 dice. Does not seem to be too bad.

This would give the opportunity to add some +dice in Grandmaster of Flowers somewhere

Maybe it's just me but it seems like there is too much being tied to monk stances nowadays between the meditation of war bonuses (especially the hit points for earth stance with hp pass changes and the offhand strike chance with air stance), the magic damage absorption in GMOF make up for monks low mrr cap, and the base benefits of the stances (the crit multiplier, ki gen, dodge cap etc). I get that the devs want there to be trade offs between offense and defense but its starting to seem a little excessive.

Not to mention tying the imbue to the stances would mean you get a bonus to a certain element's imbue at the same time you get a bonus to that element's absorption with gmof. So if you fight a monster specializing in a certain element and need extra defense against it due to the monks low mrr cap especially with unavoidable raidwide damage, you get forced into using an imbue that the monster would be resistant to or worse healed by. In short it would be counterintuitive and with how imbues seem like something ssg will start balancing dps around with gear and set bonus itemization it just seems like it would lead to a headache for the future. Although granted other classes would have issues dealing with immunities too.

I would rather have elemental imbues work like a melee power based version of the eldritch knight's imbues, say core one or two in henshin, (something low enough where its accessible even considering needing the falconry tree to be wis based for monk finishers and shintao active attacks to hit workable dcs) gets you toggle options for all 4 elements with additional dice every 6 monk levels to nip in the bud any inevitable complaints about people splashing monk and taking monk stances as regular feats just for imbue dice. Then maybe change the gmof absorption enhancements to work based on the imbue toggle, except make it work like fire shield hot vs cold so it gives the defense against the opposing element.

[Lotoc]

You mean like every Bow-using HW ranger or DXB full inquis?

Where's the line between "using it because it's better" and "using it because it's better for your playstyle"?

Probably somewhere between "I'm building an archer so I focus on the archer tree" and "I'm building a barbarian who uses huge heavy weapons so most of my points go in a dagger tree"/"I'm building a wizard who infuses his sword with magical power and uses spells in front line combat so most of my points go in the crossbow tree"
There is absolutely a problem if you're devoting most of your points into a tree that isn't focused on what your build is thematically when you have supporting trees in your class for said build because some secondary effect in that other tree is stronger for your build than your actual thematic trees.
Should the thematic trees be strong enough you don't do so? Sure. But it is genuinely absurd to think that the solution to inquisitive having so many bonus dice on live is to give every other imbue focused tree another 5 dice, inquis simply is just too heavy on bonus dice for moving imbues into an overall build system rather than isolated gimmicks.

[dkyle]

I agree on that point. You're right, it's NOT comparable.

Most of the EPL bonuses are so far down the scale, they don't warrant a toggle.

The argument "they're small, so we should just get them" isn't a good one. What you're really arguing is "deeply TR'd characters should be even more powerful than they already are, compared to first life ones". I strongly disagree with that notion. The gulf is wide enough; too wide if anything. Certainly doesn't need to be increased.

In general, it's good design to have diminishing returns for grinds, so that the dedicated people still get something to keep working towards, but the less dedicated aren't left behind. EPL and IPL toggles are one way to do that.