U57 Preview 1: Imbue Overhaul

[Stravix]

The problem i see now, especially for my Inquisitive, is most of the extra dice and ranged power scaling is going to improve in epics. But what the heck am I supposed to do in heroics? I'm loosing almost half my dice IN HEROICS. I don't get nearly enough ranged power IN HEROICS to make a difference. Epic destiny bonus dice don't mean anything to HEROICS. Filigree won't help IN HEROICS. Set bonus maybe if there is a heroic set with an added imbue. Scion feats won't help in HEROICS. But still it is in HEROICS that I am loosing 6 dice of damage. And honestly I'm getting sick and tired of rebuilding my characters because they keep changing things. So if your suggestion is to reincarnate and multiclass my character out the wazoo to make up the difference... well I'm just tired of it. Maybe that means I'm getting tired of the game but its a shocker to me that the game has evolved into Reincarnation & Character-Rebuild Anonymous instead of running the dang quests. I just want to quest. Why do I constantly feel my characters are under attack? Not by the mobs, no, by the devs.

Sub level 18 you are losing 1 dice, assuming you are not jaded, in which case you are losing none. Yeah, levels 18-20 definitely take a hit, not gonna deny that, but most of heroics is completely unchanged/buffed.

[droid327]

The problem i see now, especially for my Inquisitive, is most of the extra dice and ranged power scaling is going to improve in epics. But what the heck am I supposed to do in heroics? I'm loosing almost half my dice IN HEROICS. I don't get nearly enough ranged power IN HEROICS to make a difference. Epic destiny bonus dice don't mean anything to HEROICS. Filigree won't help IN HEROICS. Set bonus maybe if there is a heroic set with an added imbue. Scion feats won't help in HEROICS. But still it is in HEROICS that I am loosing 6 dice of damage. And honestly I'm getting sick and tired of rebuilding my characters because they keep changing things. So if your suggestion is to reincarnate and multiclass my character out the wazoo to make up the difference... well I'm just tired of it. Maybe that means I'm getting tired of the game but its a shocker to me that the game has evolved into Reincarnation & Character-Rebuild Anonymous instead of running the dang quests. I just want to quest. Why do I constantly feel my characters are under attack? Not by the mobs, no, by the devs.

Tbf, five of those six die come at 18 and 20, so they don't play much role in heroic leveling

But I think the answer is to apply your die to a different imbue that scales on spell power. Also then you can go optimistic instead of jaded for an extra die. 9d8 (ie at 18 with current die)@75RP*200% = 101.25...6d8 (ie 18 in the new scheme)@100% SP needs 375 spell power to give the same added damage. Not peanuts but definitely doable.

This does still shaft inquis without a spell power imbue in their class, though. /2 arti won't do it since arti gets theirs in T3...so rogue and ranger inqui are kinda SOL...

[droid327]

There really should be more toggles especially in epic destinies (or make it so epic destiny abilities dont heal))- too many abilities add damage that cant be turned off. Its fine until you heal a raid boss.

Kind of a derail but I wish EDs had more multi selectors between active buttons and passive boosts to redundant buttons

Many builds have a complete combat rotation already just from their class build. Adding more attacks is just button bloat. Instead of getting another, eg, cleave from EDs, I'd love to have the option to, like, knock -1 sec off the CD of all cleave attacks, add additional damage and effects to cleaves, etc. Instead of another CMW SLA, reduce the CD and add +5 caster levels to similar cure buttons.

[Xgya]

Tbf, five of those six die come at 18 and 20, so they don't play much role in heroic leveling

But I think the answer is to apply your die to a different imbue that scales on spell power. Also then you can go optimistic instead of jaded for an extra die. 9d8 (ie at 18 with current die)@75RP*200% = 101.25...6d8 (ie 18 in the new scheme)@100% SP needs 375 spell power to give the same added damage. Not peanuts but definitely doable.

This does still shaft inquis without a spell power imbue in their class, though. /2 arti won't do it since arti gets theirs in T3...so rogue and ranger inqui are kinda SOL...

75 standing RP at 18 is HIGHLY optimistic (my initial math used a still-optimistic 45), so the actual Spell Power needed should be even lower, and very doable.

The real problem is that you now need a spell-power-scaling 1d8 imbue on a class Inq makes sense as.

Arcane archer only works with bows, so we cross this one out.
Vile Chemist works VERY poorly with crossbows, at least as far as the immunity-stripping attack goes, and its element is the most resisted in the game, so you NEED that attack.

That only leaves us with Eldritch Knight.

Not that the Wizard chassis is ever that well-tailored for ranged combat, mind you.

So, a game change meant to bring build diversity back has now pigeonholed a specific build to a specific class that isn't suited for it just to keep up.

[Sqrlmonger]

There is really low hanging fruit in a bunch of different places. For example you now benefit from all plus to imbue dice (aug, epic destiny, filigree, set bonus..)

Aug, Epic Destiny, Filigree, and Set bonus are all benefits that every build has access to, if the nerf to Inquis was to make room for these things why don't all builds see similar nerfs? No other imbue I'm aware of is alignment restricted by default and requires use of 1 of 2 specific weapon types that make it restrictive to use with other builds.

edit: Just to quickly make the point since I forgot to include it, all of these things come with opportunity cost. Which means I have to give up other things I have currently to get back what was inexplicably taken.

Just imagine you buy a car that you were told had 350 HP but when you get it home it turns out it used to be 350 HP, but now it's only 175 HP and you can buy aftermarket upgrades to get that 175 HP and if you're a good mechanic you can get more. Meanwhile, other cars they sold for the same price have 250 HP and are able to get the exact same aftermarket mods, only they install on those vehicles in more easily accessible locations.

No analogy is exact, but this is pretty close to what is occurring here. Because while I don't necessarily care if the car is 350 HP, I do kind of want the value of what I actually paid for and was told I would get. Them unilaterally removing that value and not replacing it with anything means that while I love the look (theme/flavor) of the car I am now stuck with a mechanically under-powered car that nobody wants.

Meanwhile, I'm being told this was done because cars over 400 HP are a problem while they ignore the 1600 HP cars that are still rolling off the line on a daily basis in lots of other non-imbue builds. It's ridiculous, truly.

and if you can't figure out how to get more dice than you had before that also scale higher you ought to really consider whether or not you are a creative character builder. I've already got quite a few very different instances in the new maetrim u57 builder where I have managed to get 25 dice and that's without a few functions even being updated or working yet.

Do you imagine that every single player of the game enjoys spending time in the character builder doing build theorizing? Does everyone have to be a creative character builder or they just shouldn't even bother playing? I think that is truly a silly position if you actually believe it.

But hey, if it's so easy for you then please demonstrate, as I said previously in this thread this is my current build layout: 9 Ranger, 7 Rogue, 4 Artificer. My enhancement trees are Inquisitive (41), Deepwood Stalker (21), Mechanic (11), & Harper Agent (8) using Shiradi, Shadowdancer, and US for renew healing. Show me what your 25d+ imbue build looks like while keeping capstone in Inquisitive (unless your argument is that to keep playing my Inquisitive character I have to stop playing Inquisitive??). You should also keep sniper shot as it's one of the best active attacks all the way to cap as well as INT to attack/damage and Know the Angles (or similar buff).

There is low hanging fruit in tier 2 of the rogue assassin tree of +3 dice for a 2 rogue splash for instance. +3 from a few sets.. tons of possibilities.

Glad to know it is so easy, I look forward to seeing one of them.

[cru121]

That only leaves us with Eldritch Knight.

Dashing Inquisition swashbuckling warchanter inquisitive to the rescue?

[Stravix]

Dashing Inquisition swashbuckling warchanter inquisitive to the rescue?

Don't forget Dark Apostate

EDIT: Nvm, it's a D6, not D8

[Sqrlmonger]

Tbf, five of those six die come at 18 and 20, so they don't play much role in heroic leveling

But I think the answer is to apply your die to a different imbue that scales on spell power. Also then you can go optimistic instead of jaded for an extra die. 9d8 (ie at 18 with current die)@75RP*200% = 101.25...6d8 (ie 18 in the new scheme)@100% SP needs 375 spell power to give the same added damage. Not peanuts but definitely doable.

This does still shaft inquis without a spell power imbue in their class, though. /2 arti won't do it since arti gets theirs in T3...so rogue and ranger inqui are kinda SOL...

re: The Bolded: Ya, I mean you've only dedicated enormous AP to this build, why should that capstone reward you?

OK OK Sarcasm aside I just don't get this logic. You're basically arguing that dipping into Inquis could be good for another build, not that playing Inquis will be good.

I would like to actually play Inquisitive, as Inquisitive, like an Inquisitive, without a huge nerf due to changes meant to make things easier for devs. I don't think that's actually a huge ask considering all they had to do was not change the numbers and people would have been happy. But even then, if we got 200% scaling and lost 3d across cores 4-6 that would have been fair as well, even a 4th dice would have been annoying but at least wouldn't look like an outright intentional nerf while pretending it isn't.

[red_kain]

I'm gonna throw my 2 cents into the enlightened spirit imbues/light damage stuff

Instead of adding imbue dice, perhaps stick to pacts. Change Spiritual Retribution to Spiritual Enlightenment

Spiritual Enlightenment: Your pact damage now deals Light damage, gain +1 pact die (similar to tainted scholar changes blast damage type)

Instead of adding imbue damage to the capstone Ultimate Enlightenment, you could add pact damage when Spiritual Enlightenment is toggled on. So Spiritual Enlightenment becomes +3/+4 pact dice instead of +1.
Also seems worth noting that the T4 3d4 ES already affects weapons on hit. Was it not supposed to?

[Xgya]

Dashing Inquisition swashbuckling warchanter inquisitive to the rescue?

I specifically called for 1d8 imbues.
Both Bard and Dark Apostate are 1d6 atm.

If 1d6 imbues were on the table, I might suggest taking more Arti levels than most Inquis take.

[Stravix]

I specifically called for 1d8 imbues.
Both Bard and Dark Apostate are 1d6 atm.

If 1d6 imbues were on the table, I might suggest taking more Arti levels than most Inquis take.

Keep forgetting DA is a d6, for some odd reason.

[ivorycoaster]

The problem i see now, especially for my Inquisitive, is most of the extra dice and ranged power scaling is going to improve in epics. But what the heck am I supposed to do in heroics? I'm loosing almost half my dice IN HEROICS. I don't get nearly enough ranged power IN HEROICS to make a difference. Epic destiny bonus dice don't mean anything to HEROICS. Filigree won't help IN HEROICS. Set bonus maybe if there is a heroic set with an added imbue. Scion feats won't help in HEROICS. But still it is in HEROICS that I am loosing 6 dice of damage. And honestly I'm getting sick and tired of rebuilding my characters because they keep changing things. So if your suggestion is to reincarnate and multiclass my character out the wazoo to make up the difference... well I'm just tired of it. Maybe that means I'm getting tired of the game but its a shocker to me that the game has evolved into Reincarnation & Character-Rebuild Anonymous instead of running the dang quests. I just want to quest. Why do I constantly feel my characters are under attack? Not by the mobs, no, by the devs.

First of all you can get 3 dice from 2 rogue levels. Very low investment. I don't understand why people get so upset when they try to improve the game. Maybe you enjoy just literally playing the same exact build over and over but I do think just as many or likely many more enjoy changing their builds. If you're playing inquis that's a pretty new tree in the grand scheme of things.. so I mean it's not like your build from 2012 is all the sudden changing. Instead of getting wordy start thinking about how these new options give you net benefit options. It's really not a complicated puzzle..

[DRoark]

We've been going over this for a few days now, and we're relatively sure they threw darts at the board to place the (+Die). No real pattern, odd placement so it doesn't mesh with many current
build splits, and some classes have from (0-3) by a certain point, others have (10+). If their goal was to impersonate total Chaos, then they finally succeeded in something on the first attempt.

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Heroics? Well, good luck.

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Can we have maybe a 6-month respite from SOMEONE over there (you know who she is) trying to change the entire framework of the game, so we can actually play in relative peace and quiet?

[ivorycoaster]

We've been going over this for a few days now, and we're relatively sure they threw darts at the board to place the (+Die). No real pattern, odd placement so it doesn't mesh with many current
build splits, and some classes have from (0-3) by a certain point, others have (10+). If their goal was to impersonate total Chaos, then they finally succeeded in something on the first attempt.

----------------------

Heroics? Well, good luck.

----------------------

Can we have maybe a 6-month respite from SOMEONE over there (you know who she is) trying to change the entire framework of the game, so we can actually play in relative peace and quiet?

Maybe you haven't considered that for those builds, these imbues are not meant to be (just as before) the primary focus? While every imbue is certainly receiving an improvement on its potential, it will remain just as it was before; not a focal point of the build. It will, however, open up multi classing with classes that do receive larger dice, and likewise said classes will gain benefit where it previously did not exist by multiclassing into others. For example, as I've said before, 2 rogue splash is now a direct line to 3 dice for a very low investment. Warchanter tree now gets dice in its cores.

The idea that every class should be given a primary function of imbues would be a very different endeavor and would actually harm versatility and blur lines. These things are being given a little extra significance without making them focal points in a lot of playstyles. Before, 1d6 in the warchanter tree was utterly useless. Now it can be seen as a small supplement damage source; not useless but not a major factor.

[DRoark]

We've been talking about it since it came out, it's not just me. ) There's a difference between focus, and rampant disorganization. They said they're trying somehow
to "balance out the classes in terms of... yadda yadda", and I can guarantee it's going to combust. Doesn't take an expert to see they need several months of good
planning and balancing, before putting any major change into effect, which is something the Dumpster Inferno of 2022 showed they have zero capability of doing.

[Lynnabel]

We've been going over this for a few days now, and we're relatively sure they threw darts at the board to place the (+Die). No real pattern, odd placement so it doesn't mesh with many current
build splits, and some classes have from (0-3) by a certain point, others have (10+). If their goal was to impersonate total Chaos, then they finally succeeded in something on the first attempt.

The placement isn't random - and if you're indeed curious I'd love to explain why these numbers all ended up where they did.

1: Any time the game had a scaling proc, its turned into an imbue (examples: Dark Apostate, Sacred Fist, Arcane Archer)

2: Any time a place in the game had a cool non-scaling proc, it's turned into an imbue as well (examples: Iced Edges, Lightning the Candle, the sonic crit thing in Swash)

3: Any time the game adds a not-so-cool proc or increases the damage of an existing proc, its turned into dice (examples: Music Box from Swash, Kotc Cores 2-6, EK later cores)

4: Once the existing stuff was moved over, I then went through and added a few imbues to places that I thought could use them (examples: Druid's Elemental Forms, Artificer's Battle Engineer)

5: Finally, I added a few bonus dice to places where I thought it would make thematic sense. I tried to make sure that every Imbue was supported by at least a few bonus dice, that way players can get used to the system at their own pace. (examples: Rogue's Poison stuff and the cores of Henshin Mystic)

Hope that helps! :)

[Coffey]

Tbf, five of those six die come at 18 and 20, so they don't play much role in heroic leveling

But I think the answer is to apply your die to a different imbue that scales on spell power. Also then you can go optimistic instead of jaded for an extra die. 9d8 (ie at 18 with current die)@75RP*200% = 101.25...6d8 (ie 18 in the new scheme)@100% SP needs 375 spell power to give the same added damage. Not peanuts but definitely doable.

This does still shaft inquis without a spell power imbue in their class, though. /2 arti won't do it since arti gets theirs in T3...so rogue and ranger inqui are kinda SOL...

You can add 75 RP from Archers Focus and you have the balance. Dont forget to dance

[DRoark]

I'll play the bad guy. You really, really... need to break from the usual SSG pattern, and give this a proper extended test before this ever gets near a live server.

[Tilomere]

Hope that helps!

15 Wiz 2 Rogue 3 monk gives 40d8 acid on shurikens, plus you can use PA instead for max/emp/quick/enl strike/multi-proc mantle. Should work fine in heroics and epics, as long as you ditch your non-spell power scaling imbue for a spell power scaling one.

About 10k acid imbue dps.

Can go back to IPS use as well. 8k possibly to multiple targets.

[Arkat]

I as a player drastically prefer set-and-forget toggles to a buff I have to remember to re-cast every however many minutes.

Yes