U57 Preview 1: Hit Point Pass

[Dreppo]

T5 - Uncanny Balance rank 3 gains +15% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 Assassin Light Armor Mastery Rank 3 - Grants a 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Instead of granting it all on rank 3, maybe spread it out more. Uncanny Balance can be 5/10/15, Light Armor Mastery can be 5/10/20 or 10/15/20.

[LavidDynch]

EDF wasnt the best but one thing i liked about it was that it locked out ranged types who arent right in the mosh pit. Now with these new changes your gonna allow casters who are already making a mockery of end game play to be even meatier with shield mastery feats. Really curious to see what you guys are thinking here? Just have mad love casters and severe disdain for melee?

All these competence bonuses make the tanky trees of fighter and pally and their stances just silly now. So essentially a kensai will have as much hp as a stalward defender who couldnt hurt a fly? I would leave the fighter pally stances as competence but add a tier 5 or core ablity that gives a unique bonus to hps or something like that. Leaving them with just competence bonus in their tree while every dps tree is now getting that also has a bad feel.

Wouldnt nerf US %. That tree really sucks and the only thing good about it really is the hp bonus and the kick butt epic moment. Nerfing this will pretty much make this tree obsolete for anyone.

+1

Whenever ppl are complaining about EDF they were never really hitting the nail anyway.

[Tilomere]

If the goal is to help melee, why can't we just tie all the hp to chosen melee feats? Each one picked by a player during leveling grants a corresponding toughness feat (heroic/epic/legendary) based on the heroic/epic/legendary feat slot used.

Precision (overpowered and overpicked) = melee and ranged pick = no toughness. Power attack = melee only = gets a free toughness
Dodge + Mobility = no toughness. WWA = toughness

Then eliminate all % scaling hp, replacing them with toughness feats of the appropriate scale. Then nerf mob burst damage to compensate (multistrike and dual wield mobs, reaper multiplier).

A pure 20 melee then ends up with up to 7 heroic toughness feats, up to 6 epic toughness feats (normal + ED feats), and 2 legendary toughness feats (normal + ED), plus those granted by defensive trees.

T5 US as level 30 abilities are both then swapped out for Legendary Toughness, with Strength of Vitality having 3 ranks, and Deific Warding granting a Legendary Toughness rank. 5% Falconry HP as a heroic ability is swapped out for regular toughness. 20% HP as a level 20 ES warlock ability is swapped out for epic toughness. Defensive stance in StD 3 ranks are then swapped out for 3 ranks of toughness.

Heroic, Epic, and Legendary sets instead of % hp now grant heroic/epic/legendary toughness. Every single % scaler gets replaced with linear scalers bringing tanks and mobs both back to earth. Tanks are no longer super tanks, but now have full feat selection of all melee feats to pick from for utility and damage to gain tankyness.

Then if casters and ranged want HP, they can get it by simply giving up all their feat slots for toughness feats they can already get on live, so there is no added benefit to them.

[SpartanKiller13]

...Then eliminate all % scaling hp, replacing them with toughness feats of the appropriate scale. Then nerf mob burst damage to compensate (multistrike and dual wield mobs, reaper multiplier).

Then if casters and ranged want HP, they can get it by simply giving up all their feat slots for toughness feats they can already get on live, so there is no added benefit to them.

Still buffs casters/ranged no? If they pick 6 toughness feats (like my artificer has) and so does the Fighter, the mobs being nerfed would benefit the caster disproportionately in terms of risk-of-dying.

Also more of a bonus to high-investment toons - flat bonuses (like reaper HP, PL's, Con tomes etc) benefit long-term players more, whereas percentages are equal for both and thus benefit everyone equally. Cost of dropping a Toughness feat is a lot lower for a 3k toon than for a 1k toon lol.

[Bjond]

If the goal is to help melee, why can't we just tie all the hp to chosen melee feats?

This one works. The shift to T5s will kill a ton of existing characters. Even leaving EDF as-is beats the T5 route.

However, ignoring their stated intent and looking at the actual changes, it would seem to me that the goal is to buff caster HP in heroics and nerf epic HP overall with a bigger nerf to most melee HP in epics.

nerf mob burst damage to compensate (multistrike and dual wield mobs, reaper multiplier).

This also works, but I think that should be more of a separate change. Testing will be on live. So, it would be nice if the changes were a bit more gentle.

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IMHO, they really need to be ultra-clear on the goal and then stick to it. The current T5 route destroys the majority of existing melee builds and even for builds not ruined, it pushes a huge rework effort onto the players, which when multiplied out, ends up costing 10k+ man-hours for no gain at all.

Here's an entirely different approach: remove EDF. Add a scaled TMP HP buff on every melee hit. Scaling and self-stacking would need to be adjusted so THF v SWF v TWF end with similar results; ie. HP scaled favors the high hit-rate of SWF & TWF, but damage-scaled favors THF.

Since the tHP is only added on a melee hit, only characters actually hitting things in melee benefit. No need to hunt down edge cases and turn off EDF one by one for each of them or try to guess which enhancements are "melee enough" to deserve an HP buff.

However, it's a pretty big change conceptually. It would need play testing to avoid having the tHP be either too small to matter or so big as to make melee immoral.

[elvesunited]

Here's an entirely different approach: remove EDF. Add a scaled TMP HP buff on every melee hit. Scaling and self-stacking would need to be adjusted so THF v SWF v TWF end with similar results; ie. HP scaled favors the high hit-rate of SWF & TWF, but damage-scaled favors THF.

Since the tHP is only added on a melee hit, only characters actually hitting things in melee benefit. No need to hunt down edge cases and turn off EDF one by one for each of them or try to guess which enhancements are "melee enough" to deserve an HP buff.

However, it's a pretty big change conceptually. It would need play testing to avoid having the tHP be either too small to matter or so big as to make melee immoral.

This change would be bad for tanks who don't melee attack at nearly the rate of DPS builds.

[Bjond]

This change would be bad for tanks who don't melee attack at nearly the rate of DPS builds.

Eh, my tank does. It wears full dps gear while tanking; works in R10 quests and R1 raiding. It has some PLs and RXP, but those are not strictly required. And, well, I did mention that the TMP HP would need to be rigged to scale appropriately in the face of varying attack rates (and HP and hit size).

Weird/special builds aside, real tanks don't turtle. There's almost never a situation in which turtle is not phenomenally worse than DPS'ing, even teeny tiny low power DPS'ing. Pretty much only versus G.Shadows if you lack Heart or versus LOB if you can't read & react to the tell.

Shifting tanks away from one-button lumps that only squat+intimidate would go a very VERY long way toward making tanking in general much more fun and palatable to everyone.

[SpartanKiller13]

Eh, my tank does. It wears full dps gear while tanking; works in R10 quests and R1 raiding. It has some PLs and RXP, but those are not strictly required. And, well, I did mention that the TMP HP would need to be rigged to scale appropriately in the face of varying attack rates (and HP and hit size).

Weird/special builds aside, real tanks don't turtle. There's almost never a situation in which turtle is not phenomenally worse than DPS'ing, even teeny tiny low power DPS'ing. Pretty much only versus G.Shadows if you lack Heart or versus LOB if you can't read & react to the tell.

Shifting tanks away from one-button lumps that only squat+intimidate would go a very VERY long way toward making tanking in general much more fun and palatable to everyone.

Sure, but not all tanks are A) your tank or B) invested tanks seems unreasonable to balance exclusively around your tank or my tank or a full everything's tank, no?

My "tank" is a first-life alt that's a tank/healer lol. I squat+Intimidate whenever there's nobody taking damage, but mostly I throw heals around lol. Melee attacking isn't useful DPS, and healing/rezzing is useful.

Sure I'd like to have useful attacking, but having to attack to get Temp HP would be really weird lol. It's like the same as me healing myself (pre-healing vs post-healing) but I lose burst survivability? Presuming of course that you don't get like >20% of your HP as temps every auto lol.

[kpak01]

Unarmed monk is to DDO what the Ottomon Empire was to Europe.

That's sick, man.

[Bjond]

mostly I throw heals around lol. Melee attacking isn't useful DPS, and healing/rezzing is useful

IMHO, a tank needs something other than being a giant lump of intimidation. Heal covers that and it also helps solidify agro. My tank runs in EA mantle to "add stuff" beyond dps & tanking to the raid, too. The dps is decent .. about "B~B+" on the dps scale.

BTW, unless you're dragging the boss onto the raid to heal/rez, you're not running in EDF now and thus that char "shouldn't" be eligible for the "EDF replacement fix" (whatever it ends up being).

Presuming of course that you don't get like >20% of your HP as temps every auto lol.

Yeah, if anything kills the concept, it would be that the tuning is inherently delicate. Someone is sure to find a way to push the conditions too far and end up with something unkillable.

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Here's another idea that's very simple. Assume all characters are melee and start them with a 25% HP bonus, subject to the same 5x style feat-cap that EDF has now.

Reduce that bonus by 5% for each non-melee SLA or Shot/Strike. Or, just outright zero it. Pick Ameliorating Shot instead of Strike as a Warpriest, no more bonus. Pick Necrotic Bolt, no more bonus. Etc. Etc.. (BTW, I count healing SLAs v Undead as "D&D flavor", definitely not worthy of canceling a char's "melee card").

Alternatively, scale the "EDF replacement" HP bonus based on your deepest melee tree; T1 5%, T2 10%, .. T5 25%. Combine that with a feat-count cap as EDF is now (ie. need 5x for full 25%).

VKF would need to be updated to force melee/ranged choices instead of granting double buttons, but no one really cares about the loss of a button your char is too weak to use and likely never earns a spot on your bar.

Both of these concepts cover pretty much all existing builds that use EDF. They're ultra simple. And, they're very low overhead (invariant to live combat, buffing, & gear swaps .. can be pre-calc'd on login or build-change).

[elvesunited]

IMHO, a tank needs something other than being a giant lump of intimidation. Heal covers that and it also helps solidify agro. My tank runs in EA mantle to "add stuff" beyond dps & tanking to the raid, too. The dps is decent .. about "B~B+" on the dps scale.

BTW, unless you're dragging the boss onto the raid to heal/rez, you're not running in EDF now and thus that char "shouldn't" be eligible for the "EDF replacement fix" (whatever it ends up being).



Yeah, if anything kills the concept, it would be that the tuning is inherently delicate. Someone is sure to find a way to push the conditions too far and end up with something unkillable.

---

Here's another idea that's very simple. Assume all characters are melee and start them with a 25% HP bonus, subject to the same 5x style feat-cap that EDF has now.

Reduce that bonus by 5% for each non-melee SLA or Shot/Strike. Or, just outright zero it. Pick Ameliorating Shot instead of Strike as a Warpriest, no more bonus. Pick Necrotic Bolt, no more bonus. Etc. Etc.. (BTW, I count healing SLAs v Undead as "D&D flavor", definitely not worthy of canceling a char's "melee card").

Alternatively, scale the "EDF replacement" HP bonus based on your deepest melee tree; T1 5%, T2 10%, .. T5 25%. Combine that with a feat-count cap as EDF is now (ie. need 5x for full 25%).

VKF would need to be updated to force melee/ranged choices instead of granting double buttons, but no one really cares about the loss of a button your char is too weak to use and likely never earns a spot on your bar.

Both of these concepts cover pretty much all existing builds that use EDF. They're ultra simple. And, they're very low overhead (invariant to live combat, buffing, & gear swaps .. can be pre-calc'd on login or build-change).

Ack! That would hurt eldritch knights and dark apostates who attempt to be both melee and offensive spellcasters at the same time. Granted if they used EDF they were pretty much restricted to touch spells but given that they are trying to be good at both melee and spellcasting and can never be great given how the feat system punishes them I'd say they should have comp hp. Besides the feeling I got from the notes is that making them more viable is one of the goals of this change.

If the goal is to restrict comp hp bonuses to only melee characters ( I'm not convinced that's the devs' goal as they seem to purposely leave the door open for some weaker ranged builds ) then you really want to give to those characters who stand toe to toe with the enemy and keep it from those who only strike damage from a distance. Thus who can strike from a distance but also go toe to toe with the enemy should still get it.

[Xharath]

If the goal is to help melee, why can't we just tie all the hp to chosen melee feats? Each one picked by a player during leveling grants a corresponding toughness feat (heroic/epic/legendary) based on the heroic/epic/legendary feat slot used.

Precision (overpowered and overpicked) = melee and ranged pick = no toughness. Power attack = melee only = gets a free toughness
Dodge + Mobility = no toughness. WWA = toughness

Then eliminate all % scaling hp, replacing them with toughness feats of the appropriate scale. Then nerf mob burst damage to compensate (multistrike and dual wield mobs, reaper multiplier).

A pure 20 melee then ends up with up to 7 heroic toughness feats, up to 6 epic toughness feats (normal + ED feats), and 2 legendary toughness feats (normal + ED), plus those granted by defensive trees.

T5 US as level 30 abilities are both then swapped out for Legendary Toughness, with Strength of Vitality having 3 ranks, and Deific Warding granting a Legendary Toughness rank. 5% Falconry HP as a heroic ability is swapped out for regular toughness. 20% HP as a level 20 ES warlock ability is swapped out for epic toughness. Defensive stance in StD 3 ranks are then swapped out for 3 ranks of toughness.

Heroic, Epic, and Legendary sets instead of % hp now grant heroic/epic/legendary toughness. Every single % scaler gets replaced with linear scalers bringing tanks and mobs both back to earth. Tanks are no longer super tanks, but now have full feat selection of all melee feats to pick from for utility and damage to gain tankyness.

Then if casters and ranged want HP, they can get it by simply giving up all their feat slots for toughness feats they can already get on live, so there is no added benefit to them.

nah this makes no sence, the precion feat is needed for the assassin and 2hf knive build, its a nice build but as a dps melee it REALLY needs more HP I do agree on the ranged part though

[Opensezame]

I'd support such a change if +20 hearts of wood were distributed to everyone. Absolutely no reason players should be paying to fix builds because of this change, regardless of if it's a pure build or a 50/50 split. Some people splash just to reach particular hp bonuses. My tanky main is currently 15 sacred fist/ 5 monk. Useless having that splash after the update of course if the quality from mediation if war is going