U57 Preview 1: Hit Point Pass

[LilacDragon6]

What else are you planning since melee still need more defense.

[Duhboy]

What else are you planning since melee still need more defense.

By removing PRR and AC probably or nerfing that into oblivion atleast lol xD

[ivorycoaster]

I am not sure if you guys noticed, but Torc actually responded to this thread, stating "this is only preview 1 of 3."

First and foremost, I would like to say that we rarely see responses this quickly if at all these days. As a secondary comment, I think you guys all need to really tighten up with the bad attitude doom and gloom jargon. I don't know if any of you have ever worked in the service industry, but as a bartender, if you guys talked to me the way you talk to these devs, I would short pour you or flat out kick you out because you're probably a bad tipper anyway and I don't tolerate that ****. Have some respect. These are other human beings and they're not making changes just to "ruin your builds."

If you have a criticism, post your anecdotes, your reasons why, and leave it at that. This should be the standard for the forums these days and yet most of you are just disrespectful and childish, throwing tantrums and not even practicing enough patience to see if these things work. Give these devs a grateful community to work for and MAYBE they will work harder to actually appease your concerns instead of just looking at every single response and thinking, holy ****, what a bunch of babies. Refer to Zvdegor's post, where he concisely makes his point, suggests why his point is relevant, and ends his statement. BE LIKE THAT.

Thank you devs for all your hard work. This will take some tweaking, but I think you are on the right track here with removing EDF.

[Dandonk]

Back of the napkin math says that my DPS barb is losing a few hundred hit points, and gets the privilege of swapping Raging Blows ( A solid DPS enhancement ) for Accelerated Metabolism ( a really crappy healing enhancement ) to avoid losing several hundred more.

My Barb Tank is getting an even shorter end of the stick.

Gotta love it when you see those big smiley Titles on SSG posts now days.

Yeah, this'll hurt my main, when he gets back to doing endgame after getting done with the archetypes. Annoying.

Removing EDF is a good choice. But this is not a neutral or buff change for some pretty normal builds.

[Paisheng]

So A number of classes are being raised to have the same base hit die as Monks, Rangers are moving ahead, and these classes all get 20% buffs, while Handwrap Monk (Shintao) is 15%..or 25% if you go earth...but it's no longer a quality bonus..

All things considered (I'm not sure this is a bad change overall for the game), you guys really do hate the Monk class don't you?

I noticed a nerf to monks also not just watching everyone else get 20% but monks only 15% unless you limit them to the earth stance (I don't use), but also watching ranger go from D8 to D10 but monks staying at D8 -- Hey monks are supposed to be a melee class -- they shouldn't be held back to the specialist D6 of rogues, casters, etc. It's not much but they should get the D10 like all other melees get (or they get d12).

[Stradivarius]

By removing PRR and AC probably or nerfing that into oblivion atleast lol xD

[Alcides]

As a player, I would like to see the percentile hit point bonuses completely removed from gear including the Winter set and Legendary Green steel Opposition set. I feel that this is an anachronistic design that is insurmountable for a majority of players in the game since this raid is not ran as often and people who have already farmed it out no longer wish to help others get this gear. Also, the choices for these gear sets are very limiting, narrow in focus and lack luster to what should be an engaging game play experience for tanking characters. I would prefer that these came from feat investment tied to melee combat altogether, and not granted from any other thing.

[Wizard1406]

Some extra HP for former d4/d6 classes are nice and the removal of EDF is great! Now you can buff, rez and heal people without having to stand on top of them! MUCH better for grouping. :-D

However I agree with the other posts, no class / build should have LESS HP than before the changes.

So please don't nerf any tanks. And don't nerf barbarian. In every D&D game they have much more HP than other classes. Don't take that speciality away. Also occult slayer needs full hp bonus too.

FVS already had too many nerfs, Stout of Heart was fine.

[ZER0DIVISION]

I haven't noticed this on other the other trees, but why do henshin mystics have to spend 2 extra AP now to get that competence hp back? It should just be rolled into an existing enhancement.

Getting rid of EDF is a nice direction, but the fact that existing pure melee builds now have to rework their enhancements around this change is a bit silly.

Also, why does the tanky barbarian tree not get competence hp bonus in the T5s? Since the bonus is so significant, it essentially means you'd want to spec out of it and go for T5s in another barb tree to get it back. It doesn't make sense.

[badm0f0]

once again my poor barb is going to suffer ....

[SpartanKiller13]

So uh lemme see if I can do the numbers on this one on a Barb 20 off-tank I threw a build together for reasons. I'm certain it's not optimal but hey it's fun so why not.

Currently:
Ravager Capstone (Visage is fun!) + OS T5 (HP duh). Has KT, IC:S, and alright damage with a longsword. T5 Fury, SD Mantle (with Displace clickies), US C3 for HP.
HP: 3906 base, with 55% bonus = 6054 (25% EDF + 10% OS T5 + 10% FotW T5 + 10% Winter)

Afterwards:
Class HP +300 (per Torc's chart)
No enhancement changes = -25% competence via EDF as an entire loss. -5% Fury of the Wild.
Base = 4206 base, with 25% bonus = 5275.

This is a 15% HP loss.

I could go capstone Ravager and T5 VKF/Falconry for the 20% competence HP, maybe swap to daggers using VKF or something? Falconry would get 5% Quality HP but terrible DPS and no dodge clicky; Dwarf would get 5% Quality HP if I had more Racial AP.
This costs me 210 HP (Core 1-5 + One Spirit), 94 temps/3s (given 186 MP), 60 Hamp, ~4 Con, and 23 MRR but I do get another defensive clicky and Deflect Arrows.
3906+300-210-60 = 3936, with 35% bonus = 5313 HP (20% T5 VKF + 5% FotW T5 + 10% Winter)

This is a 14% HP loss. Also VKF is the best Barbarian tanking tree?!? Falconry gives the most HP as a Barb tree?!?

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How about a Barb pure tank? I also threw one of these together b/c some guildies of mine were just discussing it. Also certainly not optimal lol, but it's a fast baseline.

Currently:
OS Capstone +T5, Ravager C5, Harper+Dwarf for a lil more HP.
HP: 4723 base, with 65% bonus = 7794 HP (25% EDF + 10% OS T5 + 20% US T5 + 10% Winter)

No changes:
+300 Base HP (per Torc's chart)
HP: 5023 base, with 30% bonus = 6530 HP (10% OS T5 + 10% US T5 + 10% Winter)

Yikes, that's a 19% HP loss.

Capstone OS + T5 Falconry
Loss of 210 HP (Core 1-5 Ravager, One Spirit), 3 Con, 3 PRR, 32 MRR, 45 Hamp but I get sprint boosts! And Fort debuff if nobody else has it, so IG that's nice.
HP: 5023 -210 -45 = 4768 base, with 45% bonus = 6913 HP (20% Falconry + 5% Falconry + 10% US T5 + 10% Winter)

Yay only 13% HP loss! And I get sprint boosts! Falconry is truly the best Barbarian HP tree. Although VKF is probably a better tank tree.

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Why are the best Barbarian tanking trees not Barbarian trees? Why does OS not have any source of Competence HP?

*Edit: fixed numbers per Infiltraitor, I had 20% US for the last build.

[LilacDragon6]

The barbarian changes are dumb.

[Denfeniks]

I think u really bullied the barb players if you going life with that changes.

Why don't you make every player have the same hitpoints, yea that would be fair... (that's what it sounds to me, and yea i get the idiocy in it)

[Duhboy]

With the proposed changes that the devs want to do to help EK, ranged, melee, etc why go through the trouble of gutting something and spreading it here and there for players when all that you really need to do is not get rid of EDF but to remove the drawbacks from it? That seems like a MUCH easier way to go about this change and reach the same goal.

[QuantumFX]

Paladin
T5 - KOTC - Vigor of Life grants 20% competence bonus to hit points

4AP to unlock the bonus on a KotC?!? Are you effing kidding?

[SpartanKiller13]

Alright and a 2nd look at my existing LN/LH tank, which is an older build but has worked fine since Ravenloft days. Revamped with the ED pass to run T5 Pally instead of ES.
It doesn't use EDF but does use US, so we'll see! I used to be Animal Domain too, but luckily I'm out of that already lol.

9/6/5 Cleric/Warlock/Pally

Currently:
HP: 2307 base, with 50% multiplier = 3460 (20% US + 20% SaD + 10% Winter)

Afterwards:
I only have 3 style feats, so 7/8 x 9/20 x 220 = 87 Cleric HP, 47 Warlock HP, and 57 Paladin HP = 191 HP gained.
HP: 2307 + 191 = 2498 base, with 40% multiplier = 3497 (10% US 20% SaD + 10% Winter)

Hey, I get a 1.1% HP increase! Good thing that build started at such a low base HP lmao.

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What about my last life as a Kensei/Falconry Wis-max Fighter 20 with hilarious tactics DC's? It's a pure Fighter with like no tank trees, should be easy math.

Currently:
2424 base, with 30% multiplier = 3152 (25% EDF, 5% Falconry Conditioning)

Afterwards:
2424 + 260 = 2684, with 25% multiplier = 3355 (20% Weapon Master, 5% Conditioning)

Sweet, 6.4% HP gain. Small buffs, we take those

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I guess I'm mostly seeing nerfs to some tank builds, other tank builds ~breaking even, and at best slight buffs to DPS melee; particularly those with lower starting numbers where the flat bonus matters more and % loss matters less.

Getting +260 HP onto a 800 HP endgame toon would probably be pretty good though? Which I guess is the point?

I'm not sure why some trees are so much favored over others though. Like Fighter/Pally offensive trees give almost as much HP as their tank trees, which just feelsbad for those.

[Wizard1406]

4AP to unlock the bonus on a KotC?!? Are you effing kidding?

Yeah the unlocks for competence hitpoints should probably not be in optional or multi-selector enhancements. So nobody needs to spend extra AP or forgo a better choice .Rather in "mandatory" enhancements, that every melee takes anyway, so rather holy retriubtion in KOTC.

[Infiltraitor]

How about a Barb pure tank? I also threw one of these together b/c some guildies of mine were just discussing it. Also certainly not optimal lol, but it's a fast baseline.

Currently:
OS Capstone +T5, Ravager C5, Harper+Dwarf for a lil more HP.
HP: 4723 base, with 65% bonus = 7794 HP (25% EDF + 10% OS T5 + 20% US T5 + 10% Winter)

No changes:
+300 Base HP (per Torc's chart)
HP: 5023 base, with 30% bonus = 6530 HP (10% OS T5 + 10% US T5 + 10% Winter)

Yikes, that's a 19% HP loss.

Capstone OS + T5 Falconry
Loss of 210 HP (Core 1-5 Ravager, One Spirit), 3 Con, 3 PRR, 32 MRR, 45 Hamp but I get sprint boosts! And Fort debuff if nobody else has it, so IG that's nice.
HP: 5023 -210 -45 = 4768 base, with 55% bonus = 7390 HP (20% Falconry + 5% Falconry + 20% US T5 + 10% Winter)

Hey, that's only a 5% HP loss! And I get sprint boosts! Falconry is truly the best Barbarian HP tree. Although VKF is probably a better tank tree.

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Why are the best Barbarian tanking trees not Barbarian trees? Why does OS not have any source of Competence HP?

20 Falconry + 5 Falconry + 10 US T5 + 10 Winter = 45% scalar, not 55%.

4768 * 1.45 = 6913. That's a 12% loss.

The good news is Defender will be #1 tank tree again. Occult Slayer nerfed to 2nd place. Warpriests nerfed out of existence.

[QuantumFX]

Yeah the unlocks for competence hitpoints should probably not be in optional or multi-selector enhancements. So nobody needs to spend extra AP or forgo a better choice .Rather in "mandatory" enhancements, that every melee takes anyway, so rather holy retriubtion in KOTC.

I'd be fine with removing the tier 4 as a prereq for the tier 5.

[ivorycoaster]

I don't hate the idea of making people make small decisions for either A) small dps increase or B) big hp buff..

But making people choose either a BIG dps increase, or a big hp buff, that one might not go over well with a lot of players who are losing something that was autogranted.

Also, my guild and a guild we are closely related to, like to push reaper raids. Generally we do rely on barb tanks for said raid pushing. Those barbarians do rely heavily on their HP for tanking purposes, so it might be a big deal to take a look at occult slayer and add some competence bonus in there as well. Same goes for the renegade mastermaker tree, it should definitely have a competence bonus mixed in as that is for sure the tanky tree for artificers.

Overall, my EK has what I think is a slight net gain in HP and is no longer going to be touch range caster. sooooo I am STOKED.