Dark Apostate issues

[Xezom]

Hello,

Following up on the Dark Apostate now that it's been released.

-The Ward of Shadows Icon is still using the Stub from test server for the enhancement point.

-Prayer, does not seem to be getting the proper scaling from damaging meta-magics like Maximize and empower. Tested with a fresh character with 25 light spell power to make sure I could get a better read. Bane hits for somewhere in the ballpark of 40-60 non crit. Prayer is doing between 18-30. Leads me to believe the meta magics aren't working on its damage. Also tested SLA with Meta-magics on vs Praryer non-sla with no meta-magics. Both ended up doing the same damage leading me to definitely believe the damaging metas are not working on it.

-On the damage point, reducing the damage from 1d6 down to 1d4 for the base version (upgrades at t5) is somewhat understandable due to there being no save to the damage, but the damage, thanks to the long CD's of your SLA's, is still underwhelming. Your domain spells are still vastly stronger. It would probably help if the damage used loaded dice and were something like 1d4+2 or even 1d2+3 like magic missile (make it closer to Force Missiles when on a cursed target). The t5 could upgrade it from 1d4+2 to 1d6+3 as maximum damage threshold isn't really this trees issue. (once you hit 14 you're still going to rely on Curse + Destruction). It's having consistent damage and ability to clear and has been since preview 1. So far from testing this tree still struggles to be remotely SP efficient. When a fully maximuzed and empowered SLA can't one shot something in a slayer area of equal level, you know there's going to be a struggle. Even with Full fey-wild heroic set including Light spell power ring (130 total light spell power), with maximize and empower you don't one shot enemies in the searing heights with Bane (who's meta magics do actually seem to be working) unless you curse them first.
-- For a point of reference, Necrotic ray SLA using the same gear (which doesn't include any further Negative Spell power) on a non crit, hits for 430. Granted Necrotic ray is a pretty strong spell for a level 7 character to have especially as an SLA, but it gives you an idea of how lacking in power the DA still is by itself. The sad part is that from my testing on lammania, I know that the damage/sp efficency does not increase considering that the base on lammania was 1d6, and now that is the upgraded damage at t5.



So far that's all I've got I'll update this thread is I find other issues.

[droid327]

Wait...they *reduced* the damage on pray for mercy? 1d6 was already pointlessly low

It definitely needs some loaded die that scale with cores...should be 1d6+2 base and then get +1 more in cores 2345 and +2 in the capstone

That basically just makes it the light/alignment nukes that the divine spellbook is sorely missing beyond the L4 spells, and a counterpart to Fire nuking up through fire storm at 1d6+8

[Xezom]

Just Tested with a Sun domain set up at the same level and gear as well.

- Bane SLA damage range 63-84 on 10s CD 10sp cost
- Prayer SLA damage range 36-45 on 10s CD 10sp cost -Metas definitely not working here
- Searing Light SLA (from Domain) damage range 268-316 on 5s CD 4SP cost.

All Spells were maximized and empowered, All spells using 130 light spell power. Tested in Searing Heights with full Feywild gear set at level 7.

The damage of the Pray for Mercy ability is simply too low even with metas. I recommend hotfix buffing to either 1d4+2 (3-6) or 1d2+3 (4-5) per level and the upgrade at T5 adjust to either 1d6+3 (4-9) or 1d2+6 (7-8). Even as AoE abilities that proc it, Pray for Mercy is still too weak to be reliable, and trying to curse spam on every mob is ultra tedious just for enough oomph to clear trash.

[Xezom]

Wait...they *reduced* the damage on pray for mercy? 1d6 was already pointlessly low

It definitely needs some loaded die that scale with cores...should be 1d6+2 base and then get +1 more in cores 2345 and +2 in the capstone

That basically just makes it the light/alignment nukes that the divine spellbook is sorely missing beyond the L4 spells, and a counterpart to Fire nuking up through fire storm at 1d6+8

Yessir they did. the base damage on Pray for mercy went down from 1d6 at base down to 1d4 at base (to compensate for meta-magics being able to be used i'm sure), but even with meta it is still painfully low. It definitely needs loaded dice and for the Prayer spell to be actually effected by the damage meta magics. Right now, my advise to everyone is to avoid playing the DA until it's buffed to usable. It is unfortunately still too weak and under-performing to be considered for a primary tree. Splash as a melee cleric or neg DD but it's bad to run it as a main tree right now.

I'd agree with giving Pray for Mercy an additional loaded dice per core as well. Start it at base of 1d4+1 with an additional loaded dice at either 2,3,4,5, and capstone or 3,4,5, and 2 at capstone. Together with the upgrade at T5 would put it at 1d6+6/CL at 20.

I would go so far as to argue that because the CD's for your SLAs are Pretty long and the cost is quite a bit higher than most offensive spam SLAs that those numbers could even go up further, but that would be where I would start them or at the numbers I put in my second post to make it more like Force missiles in reliability. It's always better to come in low and buff up than it is to come in high and have to nerf, but this is one of those cases that we came in WAAAAAY too low. You do almost as much by smacking enemies with your DA dice as you do by spamming prayer because of how laughably low the damage is on PFM

[droid327]

Yessir they did. the base damage on Pray for mercy went down from 1d6 at base down to 1d4 at base (to compensate for meta-magics being able to be used i'm sure), but even with meta it is still painfully low.

Heh going from 1d6 to 1d4 is a loss of about 30% DPS. Emp+Max add 225 spellpower. So on a ~L4 caster with maybe 100 base spellpower, you're gaining about 212% extra damage...which means you only get a net of 151% from both metamagics with the nerf, and that gets less as you level up...

This feels a lot like Chain Shape for Warlock, where its totally pointless because the devs shackled it with crippling scaling penalties because they overvalued its geometry

[Xezom]

Heh going from 1d6 to 1d4 is a loss of about 30% DPS. Emp+Max add 225 spellpower. So on a ~L4 caster with maybe 100 base spellpower, you're gaining about 212% extra damage...which means you only get a net of 151% from both metamagics with the nerf, and that gets less as you level up...

Yeah that's my concern too. If the damage is bad early, it's only going to get worse. When you can't one shot trash in a slayer with fully max/emp spell at level 7... yeah... considering that PFM is the primary source of damage for DA that does not bode well. Very glad I did not re-roll my high level Cleric into a DA yet. As is, we're still at the point of this trees is just going to be Curse + Destruction Spam once you hit 14, but getting up to that point is going to be painful if you try using the DA tree main.

[SocratesBastardSon]

I hope they realize and act on how useless these spells are. Overall the whole curse and prayer thing is a cool idea, so here's hoping ...

[Xezom]

I hope they realize and act on how useless these spells are. Overall the whole curse and prayer thing is a cool idea, so here's hoping ...

We've been pushing since preview one to get them to ramp this tree up, but so far its still pretty lackluster. It's better than it was in preview 1 (should tell you how bad it was to start), but it still needs work. I'm very hopeful that they give it a hotfix buff as, like you, I love the theme feel and look of the class and tree. Right now, it just doesn't live up to it's fantasy... or even usefulness. It's close just needs some number tweaks.

I also tested the curse SLA damage vs undead to make sure the metas are working, and it completely smokes Pray for Mercy. You could make pray for mercy the same as cursed words and it would still be way better than it is now if it worked on everything. The biggest issue of this tree is it's lack of doing anything useful. Penalties to hits and saves are nice especially since many of them stack, but those penalties mean nothing if you can't do enough damage to actually kill things before running dry on SP.

[droid327]

It's close just needs some number tweaks.

Yeah that's what's most frustrating about this. The whole tree would go from a 2 to an 8 if they just upped the base damage on PFM. The mechanics are there, the design idea is fine. Like that's literally the one major thing that's hamstringing the tree, the one huge albatross on its neck they refuse to simply take off...

[Xezom]

Like that's literally the one major thing that's hamstringing the tree, the one huge albatross on its neck they refuse to simply take off...

ROFL! I now have that visual stuck my head of a giant squawking bird hanging from it's neck. xD

Joking aside, I totally agree and hoping it gets quick patched up.

[fatherpirate]

Now, given I have only read through the new tree a couple of times (am no expert)
I did catch in there at some point, those powers do eventually become 'no saving throw'
type attacks ... if so that might explain the ... conservative damage it does.

just saying

[dlsidhe]

Hello,

Following up on the Dark Apostate now that it's been released.

-The Ward of Shadows Icon is still using the Stub from test server for the enhancement point.

-Prayer, does not seem to be getting the proper scaling from damaging meta-magics like Maximize and empower. Tested with a fresh character with 25 light spell power to make sure I could get a better read. Bane hits for somewhere in the ballpark of 40-60 non crit. Prayer is doing between 18-30. Leads me to believe the meta magics aren't working on its damage. Also tested SLA with Meta-magics on vs Praryer non-sla with no meta-magics. Both ended up doing the same damage leading me to definitely believe the damaging metas are not working on it.

-On the damage point, reducing the damage from 1d6 down to 1d4 for the base version (upgrades at t5) is somewhat understandable due to there being no save to the damage, but the damage, thanks to the long CD's of your SLA's, is still underwhelming. Your domain spells are still vastly stronger. It would probably help if the damage used loaded dice and were something like 1d4+2 or even 1d2+3 like magic missile (make it closer to Force Missiles when on a cursed target). The t5 could upgrade it from 1d4+2 to 1d6+3 as maximum damage threshold isn't really this trees issue. (once you hit 14 you're still going to rely on Curse + Destruction). It's having consistent damage and ability to clear and has been since preview 1. So far from testing this tree still struggles to be remotely SP efficient. When a fully maximuzed and empowered SLA can't one shot something in a slayer area of equal level, you know there's going to be a struggle. Even with Full fey-wild heroic set including Light spell power ring (130 total light spell power), with maximize and empower you don't one shot enemies in the searing heights with Bane (who's meta magics do actually seem to be working) unless you curse them first.
-- For a point of reference, Necrotic ray SLA using the same gear (which doesn't include any further Negative Spell power) on a non crit, hits for 430. Granted Necrotic ray is a pretty strong spell for a level 7 character to have especially as an SLA, but it gives you an idea of how lacking in power the DA still is by itself. The sad part is that from my testing on lammania, I know that the damage/sp efficency does not increase considering that the base on lammania was 1d6, and now that is the upgraded damage at t5.



So far that's all I've got I'll update this thread is I find other issues.

Can confirm; just made a fresh level 7 DA with off the boat gear:

Bane hit for 40-70
Prayer and Bless both were in the 20-30 range.

Metamagics don't seem to be applying correctly to the latter two, and damage could use a little buff in general. Given the no-save nature of the spells after level 12, I get the idea of d4s, but either weight them or have Apostate's Curse grant extra die to PFM. Or, like, give us a mass bestow curse channel divinity ability so we have more uses for Turn Undead.

ETA: The latter would be a nice thematic buff; drop a mass curse, drop a prayer, watch the chaos.

[Xezom]

Now, given I have only read through the new tree a couple of times (am no expert)
I did catch in there at some point, those powers do eventually become 'no saving throw'
type attacks ... if so that might explain the ... conservative damage it does.

just saying

The damage it deals is a no saving throw as is. The damage goes through regardless of is the spell effect does or not. The only thing that the core 12 effects is making it so that the debuffing effects have no saves. This is what leads to the very stagnant and unimaginative play-style that came to be the defining way to play DA on lamannia, which is spam saveless curse + Destruction SLA from Death domain and forget about everything else in the DA tree because PFM's damage is so low it's not worth trying to use to kill anything.

I originally vouched for more conservative damage in this tree if it fulfilled the debuffing fantasy. Unfortunately, the later you get the less impactful -4 to -8 to saves and attack gets when it never improves. But to give a point of reference Chain Missiles (which is not exactly considered to be an amazing spell) does 80-100 on primary target and 40-50 damage on secondary targets per missile (at all levels). PFM does 20-100 damage if you don't take the t5 enhancement, and 20-120 if you do (AT LEVEL 20 x.x). Both have a 10 Second SLA CD and cost about the same (8 on chain missil vs 10 on Bane). Neither have a save to their damage. Another comparable set of skills is Arcane Bolt and Arcane Blast, both dealing only 1d6 of Force damage per caster level as well (These have saves to boot as well).

This means that offensive power-wise the closest comparison to something that exists in game is an Archmage force/evocation caster, which we all know is NOT in a great position right now. In fact, the Archmage actually has a more reliable damage scaling/range than the DA does if you use just the offensive tools provided in the each tree. Archmage gets Cyclonic Blast, Chain Missiles, Magic Missiles, Arcane Bolt, and Arcane Blast as SLAs. DA gets Bane and Prayer as SLAs, and Cursed words (Bestow Curse) for undead. Without PFM giving more reliable ways of clearing trash, you are down to either using only your domain SLA's, using only your DD SLA's or getting thrown in someon's backpack until you hit 14 and can Curse + Destruction SLA spam.

[Xezom]

Given the no-save nature of the spells after level 12, I get the idea of d4s, but either weight them or have Apostate's Curse grant extra die to PFM. Or, like, give us a mass bestow curse channel divinity ability so we have more uses for Turn Undead.

ETA: The latter would be a nice thematic buff; drop a mass curse, drop a prayer, watch the chaos.

That is my opinion too. Having no saving throw sorta makes the lower numbers make sense, but right now they are simply too low.

Funny enough, on the first preview of lamannia there was just that. It was a channel divinity that cursed all nearby monsters, but they took it out in favor of Mighty turning (destroy undead on successful turning). I liked the first form better myself too.

[dlsidhe]

That is my opinion too. Having no saving throw sorta makes the lower numbers make sense, but right now they are simply too low.

Funny enough, on the first preview of lamannia there was just that. It was a channel divinity that cursed all nearby monsters, but they took it out in favor of Mighty turning (destroy undead on successful turning). I liked the first form better myself too.

Yeah. Drop mighty turning, put the mass curse back in, keep the 6d6 per Apostate's Curse dice in damage to undead. Buff PFM's damage a bit. Because, honestly, I was having a blast in my little test run. Shadow shroud looks cool af, too.

[Knightrose]

I was so excited this evening after getting home to TR into Dark Apostate. Now, not only can I not TR I'm reading that the archetype is garbage. Double sad.

[Xezom]

I was so excited this evening after getting home to TR into Dark Apostate. Now, not only can I not TR I'm reading that the archetype is garbage. Double sad.

Well If we are lucky, when they fix TR, they'll hopefully buff PFM's damage to worth using and that would make the tree at least viable. It still struggles before it gets to PFM cause no offensive presence, and after 14 it is still a safe curse & destruction DC Spammer. Right now it simply lacks clear for soloing and meaningful contribution to parties, leaving it in a pretty useless place for the majority of Heroics. Epics you end up just using Magus/Exalted SLAs because 1d6/CL simply has 0 impact in Epics and DC's start to get pretty dang high unless you have killer DC gear/Past lives.

Yeah. Drop mighty turning, put the mass curse back in, keep the 6d6 per Apostate's Curse dice in damage to undead. Buff PFM's damage a bit. Because, honestly, I was having a blast in my little test run. Shadow shroud looks cool af, too.

Absolutely! I love the Shade form. The undead form looks awesome, and defensively speaking the tree is pretty good. Even at lower levels you get a lot of incorp and blurry misses. As was said earlier, some solid number tweaks would take this Archtype from about a 2 to at least an 8. Right now it's not a 1 because it at least CAN do some content, it just doesn't do it well.

[Seph1roth5]

Laughably insane. Acting like you agree that the bane/bless damage was **** and then letting it be meta-able, only to reduce the damage at the same time.

Maybe they're going to remove hard/elite/reaper difficulties and are balancing numbers around normal difficulty? Even then these numbers seem sad...

[droid327]

ROFL! I now have that visual stuck my head of a giant squawking bird hanging from it's neck. xD

Joking aside, I totally agree and hoping it gets quick patched up.

The albatross in question is a reference to a dead one, that being the whole point of the poem...

But given the fact they just nerfed it from 1d6, which was already too low, I see zero reason to believe they have any intention of patching anything to viable numbers anytime soon, if at all. They seem content to let DA stand for "Divine Archmage"

[Xezom]

Laughably insane. Acting like you agree that the bane/bless damage was **** and then letting it be meta-able, only to reduce the damage at the same time.

Maybe they're going to remove hard/elite/reaper difficulties and are balancing numbers around normal difficulty? Even then these numbers seem sad...

Yeah, I don't have very high hopes anymore for this one. Some of us (me) got baited pretty dang hard by the post saying damaging meta's would be allowed to up the pathetic damage only for that to be followed by reducing the number down to 1d4. Needless to say, this tree will be sitting in the dumpster until it's tweaked. Which is a real shame cause it has some pretty good potential, it simply doesn't live up to any of it.

The albatross in question is a reference to a dead one, that being the whole point of the poem...

But given the fact they just nerfed it from 1d6, which was already too low, I see zero reason to believe they have any intention of patching anything to viable numbers anytime soon, if at all. They seem content to let DA stand for "Divine Archmage"

Forgive me, missed the reference lol Divine Archmage is probably the most accurate description there is on this tree on release. It's like they took the worst parts of Pale Master and the worst parts of Archmage, threw them in the chamber pot, flushed and whatever came out the pipe at the other end they put into the tree.