Update 56 Preview 2: Dark Apostate Archetype

[hit_fido]

Removing Harm from the spell book would completely mitigate the current Benediction point in T5 of DA (which I'm assuming is what your proposed idea for Evil Domain is primarily for), which would make the T5's even worse than they already are for caster DA. Drop that line and you might have something going there. Although I would argue that this is just a Death domain 2.0 more than an Evil domain since nothing in it deals evil damage, it's all negative. The only tie to evil is the convert scaling.

Removing inflict/harm is the simplest way to balance out giving Dark Apostate identical self healing as a Pale Master, but you could also leave it there and disable the ability for harm/inflict to target self if you're in the Dark Apostate's shadow form, which I imagine would be a more complicated change for SSG to make. There's already a death domain, but yes it would make more sense to take that over and redo it while the new evil domain parallels the alignment based good domain. You'd drop the tier 5 harm improvement enhancements and replace that with something more connected to curses and/or offensive debuffing, I proposed an idea above and other people have suggested other good curse/debuff based ideas too.

Another unpopular opinion by the sounds of this thread, I really would hate to see DA just turned into Pale Master 2. Having the benefit of self-heal auras plus access to the Neg DD, I feel, would push DA into being just that. It would share so much overlap with Pale Master that it would lose any semblance of uniqueness to differentiate it from the PM (not that there is a ton as it is right now, this debate/comparision to PM being proof of that). Sure you'd have a different spell book and lack the negative bypass in PM, but overall I think the play style would be far too similar.

I agree, if it were me I wouldn't add or change anything related to negative based self healing beyond what Lynnabel already has designed. As it is now, you'll be able to play an undead Wizard that heals with multiple auras and one other spell, an undead Warlock that heals with one aura and one enhancement under a layer of temp hp, or as an undead Cleric that heals with multiple spells and one enhancement as well as being able to cure afflictions that aren't already prevented by the form. To me that is building up a variety of reasonably balanced and survivable builds that anyone can choose from who likes the idea of playing an undead form.

But people are arguing that the potential self healing capabilities that an undead form cleric has are inadequate so this is mostly just an exercise in trying to see what amount of additional self healing capability would satisfy. It's been further argued that what it definitely needs is some kind of healing over time, either a long running passive aura or a short term dot like Vigor. It's a thought exercise - would people be happy to trade the self healing that an undead cleric already has (the inflict/harm line, and let's also, for the sake of completeness, turn off the penalized self healing an undead cleric could get from their own heal spell too) for the combination of Death Aura and Negative Energy Burst? Or if the healing portion of Dark Consumption was turned into a negative energy clone of Vigor, is that enough healing capability?

I'd also like to figure out why the argument that Dark Apostate requires a healing aura doesn't also apply to a Divine Disciple or Angel of Vengeance? Going tier 5 in those offensive nuke trees locks you out of the heals over time available in t5 Radiant Servant and t5 Beacon of Hope. But I don't see a lot of forum complaints that, sure, Favored Souls can self cast heal and cures on demand but they still definitely need a healing aura or Vigor spell to make them adequately capable of healing themselves...

Let me admit this though - if everyone here can successfully cajole SSG to not only open up the possibility of a pure class undead form cleric, but throw in Death Aura on top of that, I'll play that build into the ground with great joy even if it is absurdly unbalanced (or rather, because it is absurdly unbalanced).

[droid327]

But people are arguing that the potential self healing capabilities that an undead form cleric has are inadequate

Sophistry and obfuscation

It's not about "adequate" healing as in you'll die without it even if you're just spamming self heals

It's about convenience and qol and it being more fun to have a hot that covers your basic needs reliably so you can just go to town throwing nukes or attacking. Because the tree doesn't have anything that's really "fun" right now

DD and AoV and other caster trees have mechanics that make you feel powerful. DA doesn't, it's just under tuned caster mechanics, half baked melee effects, and a palette swap for healing

[Impaqt]

I'd also like to figure out why the argument that Dark Apostate requires a healing aura doesn't also apply to a Divine Disciple or Angel of Vengeance? Going tier 5 in those offensive nuke trees locks you out of the heals over time available in t5 Radiant Servant and t5 Beacon of Hope. But I don't see a lot of forum complaints that, sure, Favored Souls can self cast heal and cures on demand but they still definitely need a healing aura or Vigor spell to make them adequately capable of healing themselves...

because there are 2 ways to get a positive healing aura. many, if not most, clerics and Favored souls take Exalted Angel Destiny.

Let me admit this though - if everyone here can successfully cajole SSG to not only open up the possibility of a pure class undead form cleric, but throw in Death Aura on top of that, I'll play that build into the ground with great joy even if it is absurdly unbalanced (or rather, because it is absurdly unbalanced).

Unbalanced compared to what exactly? No where have these trees shown to be significantly more powerful than a Positive cleric... An Aura would just put it on par.

[hit_fido]

Sophistry and obfuscation

It's not about "adequate" healing as in you'll die without it even if you're just spamming self heals

It's about convenience and qol and it being more fun to have a hot that covers your basic needs reliably so you can just go to town throwing nukes or attacking. Because the tree doesn't have anything that's really "fun" right now

DD and AoV and other caster trees have mechanics that make you feel powerful. DA doesn't, it's just under tuned caster mechanics, half baked melee effects, and a palette swap for healing

"I think its on you to say why Apostate definitely *shouldnt* get some kind of HOT or other passive heal of some kind, when they definitely do need something else."

I don't know any other way to interpret what you said there other than that Dark Apostate's "definitely" "needs" some more healing ability because what they have isn't adequate. If what they have was adequate then they certainly don't "need" some kind of heal over time or passive aura. Maybe they "want" more, but they don't "need" more.

But if you agree that the self healing capability already available is fine, ok! I'm all for adding other features around the curse/debuff theme.

[hit_fido]

because there are 2 ways to get a positive healing aura. many, if not most, clerics and Favored souls take Exalted Angel Destiny.

So nothing at all to do with the heroic enhancement trees we're talking about?

As far as epic destinies go, any class can take any destiny and a Dark Apostate can use whatever positive healing destiny features they want the same as any other class. When the Dark Apostate is in their shadow form those positive heals will be penalized at 50% which is the same trade off any other undead form has for the benefits of the undead form itself.

[Impaqt]

So nothing at all to do with the heroic enhancement trees we're talking about?

As far as epic destinies go, any class can take any destiny and a Dark Apostate can use whatever positive healing destiny features they want the same as any other class. When the Dark Apostate is in their shadow form those positive heals will be penalized at 50% which is the same trade off any other undead form has for the benefits of the undead form itself.

Huh?

My pale master gains 0 healing from positive sources. maybe you are thinking of Warforged/Repair? There has been no indication that DA Undead forms will be healed at 50% from Positive healing.


and enhancements are dynamic. very easy to swap around. many clerics will use Radiant Servant for Bursts and Aura while leveling and then switch once they get into epics.

[Xezom]

Huh?

My pale master gains 0 healing from positive sources. maybe you are thinking of Warforged/Repair? There has been no indication that DA Undead forms will be healed at 50% from Positive healing.


and enhancements are dynamic. very easy to swap around. many clerics will use Radiant Servant for Bursts and Aura while leveling and then switch once they get into epics.

This is from the Original Post:

[*]Core 3: Shadow Shrouding: Toggle: Shroud yourself in Necromantic Energies and assume the form of a Shadow. While in Shadow form, you are considered an Undead, gain a base 100% Fortification, and may heal from Negative Energies. This healing comes at a cost - Undead naturally only take 50% healing from Positive Energy and take 100% more damage from Light. You gain +2 Wisdom and +2 Constitution, as well as +5% Incorporeality and Concealment as your form is partially obscured and intangible. This is a Major Form.

All undead forms have 50% healing from Positive (plus or minus effects). it was a change they made to undead forms quite a while back. Check your Pale master Toggles in game, they note the same thing too.

Sophistry and obfuscation
DD and AoV and other caster trees have mechanics that make you feel powerful. DA doesn't, it's just under tuned caster mechanics, half baked melee effects, and a palette swap for healing

I also agree that as a caster tree, the DA falls short and swapping positive for negative does not a unique style make. I think this is the biggest issue with the DA. It lacks uniqueness/tree defining power to make it it's own unique thing. I don't really fancy the idea of using the mechanics of another currently existing play style to make a new play style viable, when it's supposed to expand on underused mechanics/create a new one.

[Lotoc]

Huh?

My pale master gains 0 healing from positive sources. maybe you are thinking of Warforged/Repair? There has been no indication that DA Undead forms will be healed at 50% from Positive healing.


and enhancements are dynamic. very easy to swap around. many clerics will use Radiant Servant for Bursts and Aura while leveling and then switch once they get into epics.

Might I suggest playing the game?
Pale Shroud: Multiselector: Choose an Undead Shroud. All forms grant 100% critical hit resistance and allow you to be healed by Negative Energy. You take 50% healing from Positive, and double damage from Light. You are considered Undead rather than your original type for the purposes of most effects.

Player undead have been receiving positive healing since 2019, trying to find exactly which patch it was a part of but it's at least been as long as the Pale Master revamp years ago.

[Impaqt]

Might I suggest playing the game?
Pale Shroud: Multiselector: Choose an Undead Shroud. All forms grant 100% critical hit resistance and allow you to be healed by Negative Energy. You take 50% healing from Positive, and double damage from Light. You are considered Undead rather than your original type for the purposes of most effects.

Player undead have been receiving positive healing since 2019, trying to find exactly which patch it was a part of but it's at least been as long as the Pale Master revamp years ago.

Guess I never noticed that. I guess its something, but still not enough to justify taking a positive aura IMO.

I assure you've played this game since 06'. just never noticed or forgot about this change in the past few years.

[karatemack]

My original feedback is still relevant: https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...=1#post6533326

It would be nice to get a response on some of this targeted feedback related to DA. Thank you.

[Kasinata]

Could we change the animation on prayer once it's upgraded on DA tree?
Looks wrong using holy smites animation, would look cool using unholy blight's

Also
Perhaps a subtle way to be inkeeping with lore, yet dealing with a few problems damaging stuff, a way of turning negative damage into evil damage?

Warlocks can change their eldritch blast damage type, maybe the da could do something similar with select spells

I also think that the cleric needs to look at the domains, as I think these need more,
caster ones need at least a lvl9 spell, and perhaps true Spells added to spell book as well as SLA
And the warrior ones could do with a little more too, especially with the dominance on holy sword given its the only bonus to weapon critical multiplier. A few others could include this for favoured weapons at least. And I'd still love to see a few melee attacks, a cleave or something added in like animal lore got with its charge.

Personally I really love the idea of the dark apostate, and it's a fun tree
And I think many of the grievances players have with the cleric aren't about this new archetype. It adds lore, which I like, and doesn't really sort out a lot of the problems the class has, and similarly DD doesn't actually sort the fundamental problems - it just moved stuff around a little.

The general nerf to alignment dmg spells will be felt by many cleric's and fvs alike
And the lack of high end spells next to other casters continues

[Ghustor]

Sounds like a funny build to play for a little time. But sure, underpowered as Damage Caster. Neg is the most commun immunit in the game, prob abou half of the game content has undead or constructors.
The aligment spells should work fine in heroic and maybe in low reapers, but definily not a build to play high reapers or the hardest endgame content.

This is the tipical designt that make a player put a lot of efort on they character just to join a PUG and watch another casters blowing the mobs, then get disapointed and TR to a generic caster build.

If the designers want to balance the casters power, they should stop to keeping nerfing the strongest builds and focus evort to bring new builds to the shine. And its impossible without immunities strip. THIS is why Sorc/Alch/Druid is aways on TOP tier and another class will never be. Stop to change spells Dices and Max CL, focus on the mechanics.

[ShadowFlash]

Embracing the *Flavor* of DA... how do Save DeBuffs stack? For example...
Shifter Howl -5@20
Exalted Angel "Shadows Upon You" (-1 +Stacks)
Along with from DA...
Prayer (-5@20)
Cursed Words ( -4 ? )
Which could be 15-19(stack) AOE save debuff with 3-4 clicks depending on if cursed words ends up using turn charges or not? Is that right?

Obviously would be a flavor build as going that far in Shifter and not taking lesser displacement rage would be weird (non stacking with Shadow Form Right??? )

[Nugaot]

At level 20 NEB is has roughly the same self healing output of inflict serious wounds. Then a Dark Apostate can also cast inflict critical and harm and finally inflict moderate for another 66% of NEB's output. That's what I mean by strong on-demand self heals (plural). If NEB works so well for palemasters as a singular on-demand self heal that's great. Now imagine a palemaster with 2 Negative Energy Bursts and a Mega Negative Energy Burst all on different cool downs on top of a really good long lasting passive Death Aura. It's great to dream but this makes no design sense to me from a balance perspective.

Here's a solution. There's already a death domain, but no evil domain.

Evil Domain:

* Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.
* Your negative spells will use Evil (alignment) Spell Power if it is higher. Your Evil (alignment) spells will use negative Spell Power if it is higher.
* Your inflict and harm spells are removed from your Cleric spell book.
* Level 5: You gain Lesser Death Aura as an SLA. 10 SP.
* Level 9: You gain Death Aura as an SLA. 30 SP.
* Level 14: You gain Negative Energy Burst as an SLA. 45 SP, 4 second cooldown.

So you can act as pale master instead of a cleric for the purposes of negative self healing but otherwise have access to all other cleric functions. That seems reasonable to me.

This is a great idea. DA could use a few more uniquely suited domain options.

Terror Domain - Debuff/IK Illusion caster
+1 Illusion DC at 2, 6, 12, 18.
Your turn undead applies a crushing despair effect to humanoids
Level 5: Doom SLA
Level 9: Scare SLA
Level 14: Phantasmal Killer SLA

Pestilence Domain - Debuffer/support
When you use your Turn Undead your party gains a Sacred bonus to saving throws against poison equal to your Cleric level for 20 seconds.
Level 5: Ooze Puppet SLA
Level 9: Poison SLA
Level 14: Waves of Exhaustion SLA

(I really wish there were some more Poison-typed DPS spells besides alch potions to take advantage of stacking spellpowers on neg+poison)

Hurting Domain (there's already a destruction domain in DDO but nothing that mirrors the healing domain)
Using Turn Undead gives you and your party a 20% bonus to Negative Amplification for 20 seconds.
Level 5: Inflict Moderate Wound SLA
Level 9: Contagion SLA
Level 14: Your negative energy healing spells are empowered, as if you had the Empower Healing metamagic. This does not increase their cost.

Travel Domain - For the cleric on the go
Using turn undead applies a sacred bonus to run speed equal to 1% per cleric level to you and your party
Level 5: Expeditious Retreat SLA
Level 9: Dimension Door SLA
Level 14: Teleport SLA

Forge Domain - for the undead cleric who wants to heal EVERYTHING
+2 Repair Spellpower per cleric level, your repair spells now use the higher of your repair or positive spellpower, and vice versa. Your turn undead channel divinity now effects constructs.
Level 5: You gain cure moderate wounds as an SLA.
Level 9: You gain Flame Turret as an SLA
Level 14: You gain Reconstruct as an SLA. Shares cooldown with Arti/BF SLA.

[homepage9]

It scales with spellpower (evil damage = alignment = light spellpower)

Im worry about that it is not scales with anything in Update 56....that why they didnt write it....