U56 Preview 1: Archetype Overview

[Lynnabel]

Howdy all! You know how in the Producer's Letter this year we announced an exciting new type of character build option? Well, those exciting new character build options are Archetypes, and lets get into what exactly that means:

Archetypes

An Archetype is, in short, a specific and unique type of way to play a specific, existing class. This explanation gets a lot easier if we actually use an Archetype we've built to explain, so for this we're going to use an upcoming archetype - Dark Apostate - as our example.

Dark Apostate is a Cleric archetype. That means that if you see an ability or something that requires you to be a Cleric, Dark Apostate qualifies, as you are a Cleric first and a Dark Apostate second. It also means that in the party window you'll see yourself as a Cleric, and in the Who menu and LFG window - you guessed it, you're a cleric.

What Dark Apostate has that other Clerics do not is different enhancement trees. Dark Apostate has 3 cleric class trees: Dark Apostate, Warpriest, and Divine Disciple. Note that it does NOT have Radiant Servant! This is the big part of what makes an Archetype an Archetype - their trees are different, so the builds that use them will be different.

Archetypes are not just 1 different enhancement tree, though. They can have different class feats (for example, a Warlock Archetype that has new pact choices, or limits your pact choices to something thematically appropriate), different spellbooks (for example, a Bard that focuses more on illusion spells at the expense of its sonic options), replace more than one tree or all of them (for example, a Druid that is a pure caster and forgoes its Wild Shape forms), and even different alignment restrictions (for example, a Paladin that would very much like you to NOT be lawful good).

You can multiclass into an Archetype or a regular class just like you can with regular heroic classes, but you cannot multiclass an Archetype with its base class or another Archetype of the same class. So cleric Archetype + fighter = okay, cleric Archetype + fighter Archetype = okay, but cleric Archetype + different cleric Archetype = not okay, and cleric Archetype + cleric = not okay.

Past Lives and Completionist

Archetypes have their own past lives that fit in with the current Heroic Past Life system. If your majority class is an Archetype, you will earn that Archetype's past life.

An Archetype's past life counts as a prerequisite for the Heroic Active past life feats. Furthermore, an Archetype's past life feat will qualify someone for Heroic Completionist, assuming they haven't earned it already. If you have 1 copy of all heroic class past lives done on a character except for Cleric, for example, you'd be able to qualify for the Cleric portion with either base Cleric or with Dark Apostate. This means that as we release new Archetypees, Heroic Completionist won't be removed from players that have already earned it, and new options will open up for players still on that journey. Finally, with this release, Heroic Completionist will become automatically granted to characters that qualify.

In summary, Heroic Completionist will become: You win DDO! You gain +2 stats and +2 skills. This feat is automatically obtained at level 3 for all characters that have completed at least one class or archetype past life for each of the available classes in the game.

Why Archetypes?

There are a lot of great reasons to go this route, and we'd love to talk through some of them to help explain why we're angling in this direction.

1: Making new classes is hard - both technically and design-wise. There are only so many D&D classes in the books and the ones that are left retread old ground considerably. We'd never be able to make Class 16 without significant overlap with existing character options, something that feels bad from a design perspective and worse from a player perspective. Tons of great design space is locked up already and we needed a way to go back and fill in our gaps.
2: Technically speaking, this is a lot better than making new classes for a lot of reasons due to how DDO's engine functions. There's a ton of work to get a new class up on the LFM panel, for example, that with Archetypes we simply do not need to do. It prevents our UI from becoming bloated in a variety of places. It also prevents player information overload - rather than having 30 classes, sticking to our current 15 means they're still easily recognizable at a glance UI-wise.
3: This allows us to revisit design space that our existing classes touch upon and give it the love it deserves. If an existing class sorta-supports an archetype, this is a way for us to build that idea out and give it support in a way that doesn't mess with existing builds and archetypes.
4: Archetypes are easier for us to build than regular classes which means we can release more of them more frequently. It also means that we can do weirder things with them - if our ideas don't pan out, design-wise, we're not wasting years of work on a risky idea that doesn't land. We can take more risks, which feels great for us and will likely turn out some insane and unbelievable results.
5: Archetypes give us a great way to schedule revamps and retooling of existing class features. We have historically had a hard time pinning revamps down to a set schedule, but this gives us a great way to order and organize our class initiatives. For example, (and we're going into this later down in this post), Dark Apostate releases alongside a revamp of Divine Disciple. If we're building a Archetype, that's a great time to shore up other parts of the class we're building on - since it all fits together into one cohesive whole.
6: Archetypes are an experiment to see if they resonate better with the players than new Universal Trees do. Universal trees are a struggle to design because they need to appeal universally across many builds - and these are the exact opposite. We want to build narrow, flavorful, high-impact and interesting options that players can choose from, compared to Universal Trees that everyone can access on top of an existing class split. This definitely isn't to say that we won't ever make more Universal Trees, but for right now we're trying this new direction to see if it lands better.

Release Schedule

We're planning on releasing the first set of 3 Archetypes in a single batch this summer:

Dark Apostate (Cleric): Negative energy, evil magic using, Undead-shrouded necromancer
Stormsinger (Bard): Sonic, Cold, and Electric storm-based spellcasting
Sacred Fist (Paladin): handwraps-using Paladin that combines ki with holy energies

We're trying to cover a variety of playstyles in the first batch, and will continue to spread outwards as the feature develops and players get used to the idea. Its worth noting that our goal here is NOT to make sure each class has a Archetype to start - we will be instead aiming for Archetypees that we think will be fun to build and to play with. Its possible - likely, even - that a class will end up with 2 or even 3 Archetypes before a different class gets its first.

User Experience

So, the big question is, how do players actually choose a Archetype? What's the UX like?

In short, when you select a class during character creation, a side window will appear that will contain the base class (again) and its Archetypes. So you'd pick Cleric, for example, and then a side window appears with Cleric (default) selected, and under that (unselected) will be Dark Apostate. If you choose Dark Apostate, you'll start the game as one.

When multiclassing into a Archetype, you'll talk to that class' trainer, and you'll be asked if you would like to multiclass into the base class or any available Archetypes. If no Archetypes are available, or if you're ineligible for them (because you're already that Archetype or that base class), then you'll just skip right to the leveling up part you're familiar with. Think of it like an optional landing page.

When selecting another player or viewing your own character sheet, Archetypes will be displayed in the class breakdown. So you'll see (for example): Dark Apostate 18, Monk 2. Since those Monk levels are just regular ol' monk, no Archetype is displayed. But since those Cleric levels are an Archetype, that Archetype's name is displayed.

You may swap into a Archetype during a Lesser Reincarnation but not during the Epic Reincarnation re-leveling process. You won't need a +X Heart to swap levels during that LR - swapping into a Archetype during a LR won't count towards class swap totals and doesn't require class swaps to perform.

Summary

It is our hope that players look at Archetypes the same way that we do - as a feature that is absolutely full of potential and a way for us to get funky fresh with our existing classes in a way that isn't intrusive or overcomplex. We want to bring the coolest and most unique stuff out of the books and to the game so that players can experiment, refine, and explore these new and unique options. And, well, they're just a lot of fun to design.

Well, without futher ado, we'd like to debut our first set of three Archetypes for you all today, the links to which you can find right here:

• Dark Apostate
• Stormsinger
• Sacred Fist

[QuantumFX]

So, are iconics locked to the base class, or can they be an Archetype from level 1?

[Steelstar]

So, are iconics locked to the base class, or can they be an Archetype from level 1?

Existing Iconics are locked to the base class, though you could perform a Lesser Reincarnation (+0) to change to another Archetype.

Future Iconics could start with an Archetype, potentially.

[Joldahks]

I love this idea. One of my favorite things in tabletop is creating weird combinations of archetypes.

Hopefully this will mean I can finally see my favorite archetype finally represented in DDO: Arcane Trickster.

[QuantumFX]

Future Iconics could start with an Archetype, potentially.

OK, this is kind of vague in that you could be implying new Iconic races that are locked into an archetype. So, for clarity, let me ask it this way: After U56 goes live, if I TR into a tiefling scoundrel, will Stormsinger be an option at character creation?

[Kalapurka]

So, are iconics locked to the base class, or can they be an Archetype from level 1?

That is a really good question.

@devs

[Shaarax]

Loving the sound of all of this, one of DDO's biggest strengths is the sheer number of builds you can make, this only adds to that. As to future Archetype additions, gimme Mystic Theurge!!

[Steelstar]

OK, this is kind of vague in that you could be implying new Iconic races that are locked into an archetype. So, for clarity, let me ask it this way: After U56 goes live, if I TR into a tiefling scoundrel, will Stormsinger be an option at character creation?

Iconic Heroes start with their first level in a particular class. For all of the Iconic types that exist, that is the base class for that class and that will continue to be true with U56.

So a Tiefling Scoundrel will always start with 1 (base) Bard, and won't have the option for Stormsinger in character creation. However, a Tiefling Scoundrel could perform a LR(+0) and change to a Spellsinger Bard.

When we introduce new Iconic Hero types in the future, those could potentially, for instance, start with their first level in Stormsinger Bard.

[Zeklijan]

Iconic Heroes start with their first level in a particular class. For all of the Iconic types that exist, that is the base class for that class and that will continue to be true with U56.

So a Tiefling Scoundrel will always start with 1 (base) Bard, and won't have the option for Stormsinger in character creation. However, a Tiefling Scoundrel could perform a LR(+0) and change to a Spellsinger Bard.

When we introduce new Iconic Hero types in the future, those could potentially, for instance, start with their first level in Stormsinger Bard.

Any chance of this being reconsidered? Honestly, I've never been a fan of being locked into a class at level 1 (unless you pay a premium item to bypass that), and this just feels like another limitation to me.

[Tanky]

Neat.

Probably better explained in an interview, but why these three archetype choices to kick off this new era? Stormsinger looks cool on the surface, and might add enough oomph to later heroic levels and epic levels where the current bard nuker drops off in effectiveness. Kinda scratching my head at the other two archetypes. What problems are they solving?

[QuantumFX]

Iconic Heroes start with their first level in a particular class. For all of the Iconic types that exist, that is the base class for that class and that will continue to be true with U56.

So a Tiefling Scoundrel will always start with 1 (base) Bard, and won't have the option for Stormsinger in character creation. However, a Tiefling Scoundrel could perform a LR(+0) and change to a Spellsinger Bard.

When we introduce new Iconic Hero types in the future, those could potentially, for instance, start with their first level in Stormsinger Bard.

OK. Thank you for clarifying.

[Mavnimo]

Existing Iconics are locked to the base class, though you could perform a Lesser Reincarnation (+0) to change to another Archetype.

Future Iconics could start with an Archetype, potentially.

Wouldn't this mean Multiple LR's as you wouldn't be able to select an archetype if you have multiple levels of the base class?
For Example, Morninglord 15 cleric would need to LR+20 into a different class entirely, then another LR +20 to switch into the Dark Apostate Archetype?
This will get a little more complicated with Multi classes.

[Steelstar]

Wouldn't this mean Multiple LR's as you wouldn't be able to select an archetype if you have multiple levels of the base class?
For Example, Morninglord 15 cleric would need to LR+20 into a different class entirely, then another LR +20 to switch into the Dark Apostate Archetype?
This will get a little more complicated with Multi classes.

Not in the case of Archetypes. If your next level while Reincarnating needs to be in a class that has Archetypes, and it's the first level you're taking in that class, it will ask you to pick either the base Class or an Archetype.

For instance, if you were a Tiefling Scoundrel 2Brd/13Clr (base classes for both), and performed an LR+0, you would arrive in Chargen. It would step you through to Bard, and then ask you if you want standard Bard or Stormsinger. You could select Stormsinger instead of standard Bard.

After leaving Chargen, you'd end up in the Reincarnation area. Your second level was Bard, and you're now on the Stormsinger Archetype, so the next level you'd take would be Stormsinger Bard. For the next level, you'd have to take Cleric. As it's your first Cleric level, the trainer would ask if you wanted to take standard Cleric or Dark Apostate. You could select Dark Apostate, and then you would carry on with the remaining 12 levels in Dark Apostate, ending up with 2Brd(Stormsinger)/13Clr(Dark Apostate).

[Baahb3]

You are creating new trees, which are essentially prestige classes from PnP, to give us different, but not more, options to spend enhancements on. Since you are removing trees and replacing them with the Archtype tree.

I guess my main question is if you have time to create new trees for these Archtypes, why don't you have time to fix broken trees that already exist?

Yes I know it was mentioned that U56 will also include a revamped Divine Disciple but holy cow are there others that need to be looked at. I mean we have been waiting for Archmage for several years now.

I will never understand the need to constantly introduce new stuff when the current stuff already needs work. There are so many things that need fixing in this game yet you keep adding to the heap. U56 is going to launch and there will be dozens of bugs that will take the next 3 months to fix which will push any fixing of existing stuff down the road.

I feel you would get a better response from your players if you just fixed what was bad already instead of introducing things like this.

The decisions made by your staff baffles me to no end.

[padd]

Past Lives and Completionist

Archetypes have their own past lives that fit in with the current Heroic Past Life system. If your majority class is an Archetype, you will earn that Archetype's past life.

An Archetype's past life counts as a prerequisite for the Heroic Active past life feats. Furthermore, an Archetype's past life feat will qualify someone for Heroic Completionist, assuming they haven't earned it already. If you have 1 copy of all heroic class past lives done on a character except for Cleric, for example, you'd be able to qualify for the Cleric portion with either base Cleric or with Dark Apostate. This means that as we release new Archetypees, Heroic Completionist won't be removed from players that have already earned it, and new options will open up for players still on that journey. Finally, with this release, Heroic Completionist will become automatically granted to characters that qualify.

In summary, Heroic Completionist will become: You win DDO! You gain +2 stats and +2 skills. This feat is automatically obtained at level 3 for all characters that have completed at least one class or archetype past life for each of the available classes in the game.

so this isn't the obvious question but lets say i already have 3 lives of paladin, will that prevent me from getting 3 lives of the new paladin arch-type?

[Baahb3]

so this isn't the obvious question but lets say i already have 3 lives of paladin, will that prevent me from getting 3 lives of the new paladin arch-type?

What? Are you crazy? Blocking players from getting more grind? What a crazy thought.

They had to come up with some reincarnation train until they had enough legendary levels to implement LRs. Tada!

[Amastris]

so maybe we can get a dev to comment on why this is being released instead of epic destinies for warlock, alchemist and artificer? its closing in on 2 years since Sev first mentioned the ED changes which have now been implemented. i know for a certain that it been 20 months since Lyn said in a live stream "we would be excited about the warlock ED." its been idk how many month since Saltmarsh was released and new Filigrees were released. Particularly the Curse of the Keeper which is meant to go with "[NAME REDACTED] warlock ED", direct quote from Lyn. i would just like to have my own ED for the class i usually run instead of feeling like the red headed step child using the hand me downs of DI or EA trees. give warlocks something to be excited about again please.

[LittleLexi]

so maybe we can get a dev to comment on why this is being released instead of epic destinies for warlock, alchemist and artificer? its closing in on 2 years since Sev first mentioned the ED changes which have now been implemented. i know for a certain that it been 20 months since Lyn said in a live stream "we would be excited about the warlock ED." its been idk how many month since Saltmarsh was released and new Filigrees were released. Particularly the Curse of the Keeper which is meant to go with "[NAME REDACTED] warlock ED", direct quote from Lyn. i would just like to have my own ED for the class i usually run instead of feeling like the red headed step child using the hand me downs of DI or EA trees. give warlocks something to be excited about again please.

This is a very valid query.

[Draxis]

so maybe we can get a dev to comment on why this is being released instead of epic destinies for warlock, alchemist and artificer? its closing in on 2 years since Sev first mentioned the ED changes which have now been implemented. i know for a certain that it been 20 months since Lyn said in a live stream "we would be excited about the warlock ED." its been idk how many month since Saltmarsh was released and new Filigrees were released. Particularly the Curse of the Keeper which is meant to go with "[NAME REDACTED] warlock ED", direct quote from Lyn. i would just like to have my own ED for the class i usually run instead of feeling like the red headed step child using the hand me downs of DI or EA trees. give warlocks something to be excited about again please.

How about the fact that we're locked to a max of 3 EDs, and today at lvl 32 with multiple EPLs we have so many points that we end up having to put them into multiple mantles. I don't know of a single person who WANTS multiple mantles and to juggle swapping them out. EDs will definitely need a revamp as they add more legendary levels and we truly run out of places to meaningfully put the points. Maybe allow multiple mantels to be active after a certain level? Or have 'When mantle active' bonuses in ED X apply new and different bonuses when mantle from ED Y is active?

[Aelonwy]

so maybe we can get a dev to comment on why this is being released instead of epic destinies for warlock, alchemist and artificer? its closing in on 2 years since Sev first mentioned the ED changes which have now been implemented. i know for a certain that it been 20 months since Lyn said in a live stream "we would be excited about the warlock ED." its been idk how many month since Saltmarsh was released and new Filigrees were released. Particularly the Curse of the Keeper which is meant to go with "[NAME REDACTED] warlock ED", direct quote from Lyn. i would just like to have my own ED for the class i usually run instead of feeling like the red headed step child using the hand me downs of DI or EA trees. give warlocks something to be excited about again please.

Agreed, been waiting for ED support for Artificiers for so many years, would be nice for forged to get some new options as well as ranged. Warlock ED could have so many possibilities too.