U51 TR options

[Tsutti]

At the moment, when my character hits level 20 it has no epic power, no destiny point. What is this "ALL" that the current system throws at my character at level 20? The new system gives several destiny points. What does the old system give me?

Isn't being able to access a small portion of the trees with several destiny points when I hit 20 better than accessing the only first core of one destiny when I hit 20?

Yes level 21 will be like playing a first life at present plus I will get several ED points which my first life toons don't get now. Some = better than none.

You're talking about first life characters and the people talking about how you get it all at 20 are referring to people with destinies filled out. Even if the new system actually gives you more starting points than 24, you might get more stuff with the current at 20 because you get access to tier 5 and 6 stuff which is often worth several lower tier abilities in terms of value and power. Tier 5 will not be immediately granted at 20 with U51, which is what I think they're driving at--you don't get your best abilities (tier 6 is being removed with U51, further increasing the likeness between heroic trees and destinies).

[donblas]

You're talking about first life characters and the people talking about how you get it all at 20 are referring to people with destinies filled out. Even if the new system actually gives you more starting points than 24, you might get more stuff with the current at 20 because you get access to tier 5 and 6 stuff which is often worth several lower tier abilities in terms of value and power. Tier 5 will not be immediately granted at 20 with U51, which is what I think they're driving at--you don't get your best abilities (tier 6 is being removed with U51, further increasing the likeness between heroic trees and destinies).

Absolutely. When they say "you will be worse off after U51" they are wrong - I won't be because most of my characters are first lifers.

If they said that "some characters would be worse off" i would have agreed.

You only get access to tier 5 and 6 if you have enough destiny points - which doesn't apply to first life toons like most of mine.

I like the idea of U51 - bring it on!

[AbyssalMage]

I think you are missing the reason for the change. The problem with epic levesl is that they are boring. No one is ever excited to reach level 22 or 23. Once you hit 21 you need to gain a full 3 levels before anything even potentially interesting happens. In heroics you would have gained 12 AP in that time so there is always a little something extra you can get. The problem with giving max power at level 20 is it makes the process of gaining levels in epics dreadfully dull. While I like all the power I get at 20 I fully understand that it is far more reasonable (and fun) to dish out that power over the course of leveling than to just dump it all in our laps in the first second and then do nothing afterwards.

I'm only excited when I hit my gear "milestones." So that would be 1, 3, 10, 15, 20/21, and 29. AP in heroic is spent usually so I don't have to see the UI reminding me I have unspent points. This change is going to make levels 20 to 29 worse for both new players and existing players. I guess it may slow the ER train by maybe 4 hours *shrug* Maybe that is the whole point. I mean they can't vocally acknowledge this but making the game statistically worse from 20 to 29 makes no sense unless you put slowing down Epic Reincarnations into the equation. It's a really poor update but they have been "on a roll" for self-inflicted wounds now for the last ~4 updates.

[donblas]

I'm only excited when I hit my gear "milestones." So that would be 1, 3, 10, 15, 20/21, and 29. AP in heroic is spent usually so I don't have to see the UI reminding me I have unspent points. This change is going to make levels 20 to 29 worse for both new players and existing players. I guess it may slow the ER train by maybe 4 hours *shrug* Maybe that is the whole point. I mean they can't vocally acknowledge this but making the game statistically worse from 20 to 29 makes no sense unless you put slowing down Epic Reincarnations into the equation. It's a really poor update but they have been "on a roll" for self-inflicted wounds now for the last ~4 updates.

How is level 20 worse for new players (presumably with first life toons)? What will such a lvl 20 toon lose compared to the old system? They will gain extra destiny points and the ability to spend them in up to three trees. What do they lose?

[Axeyu]

making the game statistically worse from 20 to 29 makes

What do you mean by statistically worse?
If lowering character power makes the game worse, does increasing character power make the game better?

[Strider1963]

Fun is very subjective

I liked the old Epic system, I found it fun even in off destinies, I found it fun to figure out how to make it work.
While it did need some updating a total revamp= not fun for me.
The direction the game has been going for the last year=not fun for me and i find myself playing less and less and spending nothing on this game.

This ^^^^ Having top tier power in a destiny at level 20 is FUN. Having that power level gated is NOT FUN. And lately the devs seem to be intent on taking the FUN out of the game and making people unhappy. Not a healthy thing for the game. Having a level gated system will more than likely slow epic leveling down which doesnt help anyone on the tr train at all. And it also doesn't help the newer people catch up on their epic destiny points... just slows everything down. Not FUN for people with limited play time either, just takes longer. I would say right now the only thing that is keeping people from leaving this game is that they have a lot of time and money invested in it, and thats not a good thing.

[donblas]

This ^^^^ Having top tier power in a destiny at level 20 is FUN. Having that power level gated is NOT FUN. And lately the devs seem to be intent on taking the FUN out of the game and making people unhappy. Not a healthy thing for the game. Having a level gated system will more than likely slow epic leveling down which doesnt help anyone on the tr train at all. And it also doesn't help the newer people catch up on their epic destiny points... just slows everything down. Not FUN for people with limited play time either, just takes longer. I would say right now the only thing that is keeping people from leaving this game is that they have a lot of time and money invested in it, and thats not a good thing.

I find having a load of power dumped on a toon all at once, and then having to level from 20-29 before I get another big dump of power not fun.

What I find fun is gaining power incrementally, so that every level adds more power. Otherwise 20-29 is boring - and as some people have said - a grind as you are just waiting to hit 29.

[boredGamer]

This ^^^^ Having top tier power in a destiny at level 20 is FUN. Having that power level gated is NOT FUN. And lately the devs seem to be intent on taking the FUN out of the game and making people unhappy. Not a healthy thing for the game. Having a level gated system will more than likely slow epic leveling down which doesnt help anyone on the tr train at all. And it also doesn't help the newer people catch up on their epic destiny points... just slows everything down. Not FUN for people with limited play time either, just takes longer. I would say right now the only thing that is keeping people from leaving this game is that they have a lot of time and money invested in it, and thats not a good thing.

Yeah sorry. By this argument we should just get full power at level 1 to maximize fun, right ?

[donblas]

Yeah sorry. By this argument we should just get full power at level 1 to maximize fun, right ?

I wouldn't be surprised if some people would actually welcome this!

[GeneralDiomedes]

You get more freedom of choice with being able to twist the good abilities from destinies that suit your build. My fvs rotates between 3 destnies based on the content I am running. Magister for reapers, unyielding for some raids and fatesinger for others. New destinies system won't allow this without a plat fee. This eliminates a huge amount of diversity that some builds can provide. My fvs will have to make a choice, a healing sp destiny or a caster dc destiny with no easy one click way to change it.

Here is actual legit constructive criticism.

LOTRO has different specs that you can switch between so you can switch between tank and damage depending on the situation. This is useful.

I think adding two spec slots with ability to purchase more with points would be the way to go.

[Hawkwier]

My specific concerns around U51 relate to

1. The awful builder charge system, which to be fair the Devs are looking at again I think.
2. Loss of twists, which I can't see the new system being able to accommodate effectively.
3. The inability to switch from DPS to Tank destinies quickly in certain circumstances.

I have no issues at all with gating access to abilities if that's what folks want. But I don't see why that needs to impact any of those things above.

I also do not buy the nonsense that the new system adds flexibility. Loss of 2. and 3. for me render that notion invalid.

I'm prepared to wait and see what they come up with. We'll see...

[bryanmeerkat]

At the moment, when my character hits level 20 it has no epic power, no destiny point. What is this "ALL" that the current system throws at my character at level 20? The new system gives several destiny points. What does the old system give me?

Isn't being able to access a small portion of the trees with several destiny points when I hit 20 better than accessing the only first core of one destiny when I hit 20?

Yes level 21 will be like playing a first life at present plus I will get several ED points which my first life toons don't get now. Some = better than none.

Well this is only true for a first life character that has not completed his first destiny.
After that as soon as you reach lv 20 you get your entire epic destiny at 20 .

[boredGamer]

Well this is only true for a first life character that has not completed his first destiny.
After that as soon as you reach lv 20 you get your entire epic destiny at 20 .

You know, assuming you are playing in the destiny you have completed. And not trying to finish all the other stupid destinies you need to finish.

[donblas]

Well this is only true for a first life character that has not completed his first destiny.
After that as soon as you reach lv 20 you get your entire epic destiny at 20 .

Well the comment I was replying to said "you" meaning me. As most of my characters are as you describe, then, the statement that i will be worse off under U51 is incorrect.

Why would I want a huge dump of power at level 20, with not much else in the next 8 levels - how boring is that?

[salmag]

My specific concerns around U51 relate to

1. The awful builder charge system, which to be fair the Devs are looking at again I think.
2. Loss of twists, which I can't see the new system being able to accommodate effectively.
3. The inability to switch from DPS to Tank destinies quickly in certain circumstances.

I have no issues at all with gating access to abilities if that's what folks want. But I don't see why that needs to impact any of those things above.

I also do not buy the nonsense that the new system adds flexibility. Loss of 2. and 3. for me render that notion invalid.

I'm prepared to wait and see what they come up with. We'll see...

+1

These are my concerns as well.

1. Builder spender is not fun. I didn't play a Monk because of it. I don't like Horizon Walker because of the "Mark this first" mechanic (Hence, my Ranger is still a mule). Not fun.

2. The new system will make my Wizard less survivable. Before I could just twist Cocoon, Divine Energy Resistance, Healing Spring, etc. ; the new system makes me waste a valuable tree slots (since we only get 3).
Dying is not fun.

3. Now it will most likely cost time and money to switch. I can see it now - "the group needs a tank. Give me twenty minutes to re-spec." Waiting is not playing (to some it might be). Not fun.

Granted, fun is subjective.

[Hawkwier]

+1

These are my concerns as well.

1. Builder spender is not fun. I didn't play a Monk because of it. I don't like Horizon Walker because of the "Mark this first" mechanic (Hence, my Ranger is still a mule). Not fun.

2. The new system will make my Wizard less survivable. Before I could just twist Cocoon, Divine Energy Resistance, Healing Spring, etc. ; the new system makes me waste a valuable tree slots (since we only get 3).
Dying is not fun.

3. Now it will most likely cost time and money to switch. I can see it now - "the group needs a tank. Give me twenty minutes to re-spec." Waiting is not playing (to some it might be). Not fun.

Granted, fun is subjective.

Yes it certainly is subjective. On 3. I actually far prefer to play DPS over tank and find that more fun, and I'm not the best tank by a long shot, but if there are no better tanks around, it lets others join and I can switch to the tank role to let us all crack on - to be honest I can't see anyone thinking standing around waiting on a tank is much of anyone's fun, short of, up to a point, some of the wit evident from some players whilst we tarry, which can be pretty entertaining at times... Anyway, taking this option away, by any reasonable measure, potentially spoils quite a lot of folks fun on certain occasions. This, along with losing the flexibility of twists, really seems to me to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Oxarhamar]

My specific concerns around U51 relate to

1. The awful builder charge system, which to be fair the Devs are looking at again I think.
2. Loss of twists, which I can't see the new system being able to accommodate effectively.
3. The inability to switch from DPS to Tank destinies quickly in certain circumstances.

I have no issues at all with gating access to abilities if that's what folks want. But I don't see why that needs to impact any of those things above.

I also do not buy the nonsense that the new system adds flexibility. Loss of 2. and 3. for me render that notion invalid.

I'm prepared to wait and see what they come up with. We'll see...

True

+1

[Tsutti]

Yes it certainly is subjective. On 3. I actually far prefer to play DPS over tank and find that more fun, and I'm not the best tank by a long shot, but if there are no better tanks around, it lets others join and I can switch to the tank role to let us all crack on - to be honest I can't see anyone thinking standing around waiting on a tank is much of anyone's fun, short of, up to a point, some of the wit evident from some players whilst we tarry, which can be pretty entertaining at times... Anyway, taking this option away, by any reasonable measure, potentially spoils quite a lot of folks fun on certain occasions. This, along with losing the flexibility of twists, really seems to me to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

This is why hopefully they'll add a way to create destiny setups that we can switch between, maybe only 2 or 3 for free but that way we can still swap without rapidly depleting all our plat (ofc they probably want some of the plat gone but if it costs too much no one's gonna want to actually sink plat into it and will build around not having to swap). Guess we'll see with the upcoming previews whether they've made something like that.

[Kovalas]

I think you are missing the reason for the change. The problem with epic levesl is that they are boring. No one is ever excited to reach level 22 or 23. Once you hit 21 you need to gain a full 3 levels before anything even potentially interesting happens. In heroics you would have gained 12 AP in that time so there is always a little something extra you can get. The problem with giving max power at level 20 is it makes the process of gaining levels in epics dreadfully dull. While I like all the power I get at 20 I fully understand that it is far more reasonable (and fun) to dish out that power over the course of leveling than to just dump it all in our laps in the first second and then do nothing afterwards.

Yes levelling epic lives are rather boring for me too, but not having full power at 20 will make them even more boring AND longer for me.

[Avocado]

I think you are missing the reason for the change. The problem with epic levesl is that they are boring. No one is ever excited to reach level 22 or 23. Once you hit 21 you need to gain a full 3 levels before anything even potentially interesting happens. In heroics you would have gained 12 AP in that time so there is always a little something extra you can get. The problem with giving max power at level 20 is it makes the process of gaining levels in epics dreadfully dull. While I like all the power I get at 20 I fully understand that it is far more reasonable (and fun) to dish out that power over the course of leveling than to just dump it all in our laps in the first second and then do nothing afterwards.

Except they could just level gate current destinies. I'm not against level gating and I think its necessary. The devs will have to take a hard look at content. The jump from heroic elite level 19 content vs epic elite level 20 is massive. If they are only allowing a small amount of points to spends that may only add a trivial amount of power, at level 20 then it's def not going to be enough for ee content. I don't believe there plan is to make ee actually super challenging again like wheb motu came out. I guess we maybe are expected to actually gear at level 20 with all the sss gear changes, instead of using 15 gear to level 30. Even fully specced with 20 gear and a borderlands weapon you might struggle hard in ee content. We shall see tho. I'm not against Ed changes so long as it's qol improvement over the current system. Being better for new players is not a qol change for the people who already have maxed Ed's, which is the majority of players. Also any redo of a system that isn't also a qol improvement is just terrible design and a waste of time.. So I expect it done right.