What's the point of chest ransack in 2020?

[Yokido]

Perhaps I should add here that if someone's looking for something specific in a quest what's to stop them from spamming astrals each run? I mean just having re-rolls available with reaper-mode screams exploit.

Run a quest on the highest reaper you can trudging through the muck for however long it takes, then spam astral re-rolls to maximize the odds with maybe a +named item boost.

Sorry, with drop-rates the way they are (generous) I don't see ransack penalties as needing to go away anytime soon.

[shores11]

It's all in the thread title.

I can see the point of ransack in DDO's heyday, as an anti-gold-farmer measure, and to balance the economy.

What's the point of this 'feature' today? Plat economy doesn't exist, and most loot worth having is BtA or BtC and not tradeable. Moreover, much of that loot is a pain to obtain - and yet so necessary for game progression.

Case in point - had some time this weekend, thought I'd get a Collective Sight for one of my alts. I have 3 toons at 30 able to farm the quest. Ransacked all three, most with a full party of 5~6 people, never got the goggles. Now I'm sitting here going, "what now?" That was the last piece of the puzzle I needed to set some TRs in motion. Instead, I'm forced to sit on my thumbs for a week, and will likely be playing less than planned, if at all.

What's the point of a feature like this, that discourages people from actually playing the game?

OP the reason is very obvious which was totally missed in your opening. It has nothing AT ALL and never did have anything to do with the games economy. It is totally about quest diversity. The Developers rightfully so built the game with the idea they did not want players focusing on just a few quests. They try to encourage players to run a wide variety of quests. I think they have succeeded in this effort so far.

I would go even further if it were me. I would reallocate all total quest XP to have 40-55% come from optional's only. This would mean that players would have to make a choice to just run to completion for ONLY 50% of the total quest XP or explore the entire quest for full available XP. That's just me.

[Bunker]

OP the reason is very obvious which was totally missed in your opening. It has nothing AT ALL and never did have anything to do with the games economy. It is totally about quest diversity. The Developers rightfully so built the game with the idea they did not want players focusing on just a few quests. They try to encourage players to run a wide variety of quests. I think they have succeeded in this effort so far.

I would go even further if it were me. I would reallocate all total quest XP to have 40-55% come from optional's only. This would mean that players would have to make a choice to just run to completion for ONLY 50% of the total quest XP or explore the entire quest for full available XP. That's just me.

Your optional xp idea is interesting. If they did that from the beginning, that would of made sense. If they do it now, it would look like a total supreme nerf of grand proportion. Optionals should reward you with optional xp. Again, would of made sense if they did that from day 1, like many other things. If anything, optional xp should be looked at and evaluated to give more accurate xp based on the quests. Some optional xp bonuses fall inline with the quest, but many do not.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Remove the ransack, nerf monks (it's been a while since we've said that) and lift the jump 40+ limit while we're at it.

What in the D20 are you people talking about? Loaded daily dice rolls, ransack, rigged drop rates.......

Let's face the facts here peoples. The Devs have conspired against us having a good time, deep down inside the catacombs of SSG HQ, SteelStar has been secretly altering the old code so these systems can't be changed.

[Stales]

I submit a compromise,

Daily ransack, 3x a day chest and xp in 24 hrs.

[SpartanKiller13]

Except gear drops mostly in end-chests, now.

There's quite a lot of early chests dropping named loot around though, and either A) those would all have to be removed, which we'd all hate or B) they'd get farmed endlessly for SXP etc.

And if y'all remember the Rose Goggles incident it's obvious people would farm them into oblivion.

Okay I didn't know about this. I thought AS re-rolls adds to your ransack count. I feel like an idiot running a quest 7x with multiple alts, ransacking and waiting a week - should have just run once on R10 and re-rolled until I got what I wanted. Collective goggles here I come baby!

You can only reroll 3x per chest lol. So initial roll + 3 rerolls = 4 loots. It's still Pay-to-Loot-Faster but far from P2W.

I submit a compromise,

Daily ransack, 3x a day chest and xp in 24 hrs.

Speaking as a non-daily player I'd hate this. Much easier for me to hit a quest 8x in one day and then give it a week vs trying to farm it 3 days in a row.

Also a lot easier to find a farming party if you can just re-run a bunch.

[Malex]

Yeah, I’m sorry but I’m old enough to remember when the entire game consisted of a chest on a ledge in Caverns of Korromar, the chest in Threnal South 3, and the chests at the end of Cult of the Six, and the most valuable characters in the game had those last two flagged.

I don’t want to go back there. I know that without ransack people would be running short quests like Wraithcallers and Thornwright hundreds of times in a single time play session. You may not be able to sell named items but sentient items are awfully hungry. And the hunt for minor artifacts would be trivialized completely. And raid items, geesh forget about it.

Imagine how much faster Mark of Death could die without ransack (still, it lasted less than a month thanks to bypass).
That should explain everything on its own.

Also, dont forget my dear poster: WPM sentience xp gems.
Most shards transaction I have these days are around those.

[Sylvado]

Some items should be rare but players turn the attempt at rarity into a grind. Without ransacking many would just play, with alts in the party making it worse, until they got the item. This would go on until it wasn't rare, it was a perceived requirement.

[arminius]

I submit a compromise,

Daily ransack, 3x a day chest and xp in 24 hrs.

I definitely prefer 8 per week to 3 per day, if only because i have a big enough active character stable to be able to cycle heavily when required.

Making XP ransack and chest ransack more uniformly defined toward each other is intriguing, but the fact of the matter is that there are optional or wilderness chests that are totally independent of completing any quest (and some end chests as well, like Into the Mist or Thralls of the Fungus Lord or Scavenger Hunt).

[Ausdoerrt]

OP the reason is very obvious which was totally missed in your opening. It has nothing AT ALL and never did have anything to do with the games economy. It is totally about quest diversity. The Developers rightfully so built the game with the idea they did not want players focusing on just a few quests. They try to encourage players to run a wide variety of quests. I think they have succeeded in this effort so far.

You're talking about quest (XP) ransack. I'm talking about chest (loot) ransack. Especially at cap, where XP doesn't matter.

There's quite a lot of early chests dropping named loot around though, and either A) those would all have to be removed, which we'd all hate or B) they'd get farmed endlessly for SXP etc.

Also, dont forget my dear poster: WPM sentience xp gems.

There's always the option to keep ransack on some 'farmable' chests, if it's that big a deal. Though if people want to farm something, why not?

Some items should be rare but players turn the attempt at rarity into a grind. Without ransacking many would just play, with alts in the party making it worse, until they got the item. This would go on until it wasn't rare, it was a perceived requirement.

Rarity is a bullsh*t argument, sorry. It's easier to get raid loot these days from runes than farm a specific set item from Sharn. That's not rarity, that's a poorly balanced loot system.

[Stales]

Might as well just sell the items on DDO store if they will allow people to just farm infinitely.

They would probably reduce drop rates by 90%.

[kanordog]

$£€¥

https://ddowiki.com/page/Elixir_of_Discovery
https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Treasu...ter%27s_Elixir

[arminius]

$£€¥

https://ddowiki.com/page/Elixir_of_Discovery
https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Treasu...ter%27s_Elixir

Only Elixirs of Discovery affect named items and artifacts, and they can't be bought (esp while Otto's is not in the store). The best way to get them is to go back in time a year and make a bunch of characters on Wayfinder.

[Enoach]

I understand the frustration of not getting the item you are looking for.

I ran Tower of Despair back in the day, 120 completions on one character (6 20th completion lists) have every ring but the one I wanted.

What I ask people to consider, will this game not be fun for you if you don't have the "perfect" item?

One of the systems we had in DDO was a system that after 3 completions we received a possible named item list. We still have a few quests with this type of system. This system in my opinion was a good solution.

I like the raid runes system that raids have been working towards as this gives us a way to earn towards the item we are looking for.

I think a better solution for the community is to create a system that helps players earn towards what they consider to be the perfect item. This would help prevent the attitude that one must keep going after the quick chest, recall, reset, repeat.

[shores11]

You're talking about quest (XP) ransack. I'm talking about chest (loot) ransack. Especially at cap, where XP doesn't matter.

No, I'm clearly talking about the chest as I mentioned economy in my reply. However the same logic applies to both chest and XP. Don't run the same quest over and over and over.

[Ausdoerrt]

No, I'm clearly talking about the chest as I mentioned economy in my reply. However the same logic applies to both chest and XP. Don't run the same quest over and over and over.

Except chest ransack doesn't encourage quest diversity. It encourages me not to play the game.

Why would I run anything else if all I need at this specific moment is the one specific item that drops in one specific quest and that will make my gear layout work? And if I'm frustrated at the game / loot system for not getting it after a considerable amount of effort (24 runs in a weekend), and the game gating me from further progress?

No, clearly, I'll step away from the game and play something else, until the game lets me do what's meaningful for my progression.

I understand the frustration of not getting the item you are looking for.

I ran Tower of Despair back in the day, 120 completions on one character (6 20th completion lists) have every ring but the one I wanted.

What I ask people to consider, will this game not be fun for you if you don't have the "perfect" item?

One of the systems we had in DDO was a system that after 3 completions we received a possible named item list. We still have a few quests with this type of system. This system in my opinion was a good solution.

I like the raid runes system that raids have been working towards as this gives us a way to earn towards the item we are looking for.

I think a better solution for the community is to create a system that helps players earn towards what they consider to be the perfect item. This would help prevent the attitude that one must keep going after the quick chest, recall, reset, repeat.

This is (sort of) what I'm trying to get at, here. The existing loot system is a mess, and incredibly frustrating at times. All the systems you mention - raid / quest completions, runes etc - at least offer a sense of progress. With chest loot, you have no idea whether you'll get your item on run 5, 25 or 55. And every run turns into "drat, nothing again", and more frustration instead of a feeling of accomplishment.

And no, it's not fun to run with an (at best, with max Cannith crafting, which I don't have) item that gives +22 Ability when the one you're farming gives +31. For many skills that's a difference between "barely landing" and almost no-fail". If you're missing a few items, that's a difference between "raid toon" and "bank toon". There are simply no viable alternatives to BiS named loot. Only slightly worse named loot with an equally frustrating grind behind it.

One other idea for discussion: why not make the items readily available and gate progression with incremental upgrades, instead? Gradual increases instead of ridiculous power jumps.

[Arkat]

OP the reason is very obvious which was totally missed in your opening. It has nothing AT ALL and never did have anything to do with the games economy. It is totally about quest diversity. The Developers rightfully so built the game with the idea they did not want players focusing on just a few quests. They try to encourage players to run a wide variety of quests. I think they have succeeded in this effort so far.

I would go even further if it were me. I would reallocate all total quest XP to have 40-55% come from optional's only. This would mean that players would have to make a choice to just run to completion for ONLY 50% of the total quest XP or explore the entire quest for full available XP. That's just me.

If I were running a quest solely for the chance to get that elusive piece of loot at the end that would finish my toon's gearset, I wouldn't care if ALL of the experience came from Optionals. I'd be running the quest for gear, NOT experience.

[ggmarquez]

Why would I run anything else if all I need at this specific moment is the one specific item that drops in one specific quest and that will make my gear layout work?

the problem you are describing seems to be mostly centered around the item itself. collective sight is a corenerstone item which many builds plan their entire gear layout around. imagine if you were looking for something else... shield of tireless aid for a tank? pansaphonic circlet for a nuker? ransack without pulling the item would still be frustrating, but... in almost every case, there is a way to work your gear around the lack of one specific item.

i totally understand the sting when it comes to collective sight. i needed at least 8 pairs for my raid 'toons. and another 4 or so for swaps. how much "quest diversity" do you think was promoted when the community designed collective sight? :-)

[Enoach]

...

And no, it's not fun to run with an (at best, with max Cannith crafting, which I don't have) item that gives +22 Ability when the one you're farming gives +31. For many skills that's a difference between "barely landing" and almost no-fail". If you're missing a few items, that's a difference between "raid toon" and "bank toon". There are simply no viable alternatives to BiS named loot. Only slightly worse named loot with an equally frustrating grind behind it.

...

Ok, sorry you feel that way about a single piece of equipment.
Were you having fun before you realized you needed that particular item?

I hear comments like this all the time. Please understand, I purposefully play in a group of G.I.M.P.s I've often disproved the "you need to be this big to work" statements. Those characters don't run with BiS, have no additional resources then what is found and are still highly effective.

Also, in a game that continues to add new content and gear, BiS today is not always BiS next update. There is danger to a player's feeling of fun if you are always chasing BiS if it keeps moving.

[Ausdoerrt]

the problem you are describing seems to be mostly centered around the item itself. collective sight is a corenerstone item which many builds plan their entire gear layout around. imagine if you were looking for something else... shield of tireless aid for a tank? pansaphonic circlet for a nuker? ransack without pulling the item would still be frustrating, but... in almost every case, there is a way to work your gear around the lack of one specific item.

i totally understand the sting when it comes to collective sight. i needed at least 8 pairs for my raid 'toons. and another 4 or so for swaps. how much "quest diversity" do you think was promoted when the community designed collective sight? :-)

You're probably half-right. Yea, Leg.Sight specifically is a pain to build around, and I'm not saying that for a lack of trying. It's the one piece that makes the 'tetris' fit together, without it you're making too many compromises. For most other items, you do have similar or slightly worse alternatives.

The downside, though, is that those alternatives are by and large located behind a similar, equally frustrating grind wall.

Ok, sorry you feel that way about a single piece of equipment.
Were you having fun before you realized you needed that particular item?

I hear comments like this all the time. Please understand, I purposefully play in a group of G.I.M.P.s I've often disproved the "you need to be this big to work" statements. Those characters don't run with BiS, have no additional resources then what is found and are still highly effective.

Also, in a game that continues to add new content and gear, BiS today is not always BiS next update. There is danger to a player's feeling of fun if you are always chasing BiS if it keeps moving.

Enoach, I respect you and your various build advice, I really do. But please don't take a discussion about systems in a wildly different direction. To bring it back full circle. Yes, I was having fun while I was making progress. Then the RNG "broke" and I was left with the one item essential for a toon's gear layout, with nothing else worthwhile to do. It feels highly unfair and frustrating. I know for a fact I'm not alone in this situation, and most of the time people react with a varying degree but similar sense of frustration. So it's not a discussion about me, it's about the loot system that encourages frustration that drives people away from the game. I'm just using my example because I can describe it best, but I've met numerous people with a similar problem in the game.

Also, the difference between optimal and suboptimal loot is greater than you make it sound. Unless the toon is a completionist or is built specifically to be OP without gear, it's going to struggle. 'Decent gear' at 30 is either RL and Sharn, both locked behind the same type of loot system. There isn't really a comparable "similar but slightly worse" alternative that's easier to obtain. RL power creep was that bad.

And yes, I know one can play gimps effectively, or ineffectively and still have fun. I've had numerous great romps through heroics with broken builds, leveling on Hard for months on end. But it's not for everyone, and it's not for every situation. Sometimes it's good to have a competent 1-2 toons at 30 to run new content, do raids with the guild etc. So that you can roll a gimp and say, "Hey, look, I'm having fun with a gimp". And then have the option to jump on an endgame raid with a different toon. It's good to have options.

Finally, yes, I know how to have fun. That's why I'll be playing other games this week, because chest ransack is not fun, and loot grind without progress is not fun. In the long run, I'm not losing much - I still get to have my fun. But the game? It bleeds players, because not much is worse than hitting the ransack wall on all alts without getting the one item. And many may not come back.

That's what the thread was about to start with.