Heroic/Epic Otto's Boxes need immediate attention

[cmecu]

I do not agree with you on this. I run two accounts and I spend my points even in both. I could not buy all the boxes I would want/need if they are bta.


Also, you are being scared of something you do not know was duped or not and now you want to ruin it for everyone? Shame.

I agree, I too play more than 1 account I would like to be able to trade freely between them.

[Haloivae]

You are aware that you don't need completionist, right?

Especially on a wizard?

Yes I am but strangely enough some people actually enjoy being the strongest possible version of their character even if it is not "necessary".

[Hawkwier]

Experiencing all the built up content and trying different builds is the best part of this game. Skipping all that by cheating so you can get to the middling at best "endgame" scene is a terrible idea. How long ago was that WoW south park episode? And people still don't get it. There's nothing much to do once you have everything.

That's a valid point from a particular perspective, but not a universal truth. My perspective is no less valid nor any more universally true...

Personally, I detest the idea of TR. I've literally only done enough ETRs for fate points, and hated that. 3 of them using epic boxes and saga XP. In 10 years.

I'm about to do 9 ETRs more for specific past life reasons, but have spent a chunk on DDO points and will spend it on dual epic boxes for each life when they next become available, as even the saga XP was a chore to me.

I don't play games to do chores. I play to enjoy them. I'm perfectly happy to pay to avoid grind. Those 9 lives are about a mornings work, so, accepting the opportunity cost, I find paying by far more "fun". And generally I do have fun, and generally I ignore TR completely.

Also, there is a world of difference between what I do and cheating!

I deplore the duping. However I can certainly see the attraction for someone who detests grind. It doesn't make it right, but equally, dismissing the underlying driver for it on the basis of a particular perspective isn't helpful.

I support the OP. No reason at all why boxes shouldn't be BTA. Folks will still dupe no doubt for their own gain, but those now selling them have, almost certainly, capped out on thier own gain anyway.

Maybe the proponents of the line that SSG are making a packet from this racket are right. I don't buy it but that doesn't necessarily make it untrue. End of the day it's up to SSG to act as they deem fit I guess, but making boxes/stones BTA makes sense imo.

[aGarde]

Running raids is definitely part of endgame. There are raids almost daily in Ghallanda in addition to guild runs on different days. People using duped boxes and getting tons of past lives has absolutely no impact on your gameplay. This is just a game, just chill and move on mate.

It does impact my game play though. The people duping are way more powerful than my toons are, and then devs tailor the difficulty of the game to accommodate the dupers and cheaters.

Also, the dupers/cheaters become "elitists" and don't want non-elitists in their raids. For instance, if I'm running a melee toon, I better be using a particular "feature" or I'm not doing enough damage for the raid. Or watch some of the streaming vids these people make. Their screen actually shows the tools they're using to dupe with. Hence the reason they can run 7 KT's, etc.. each week, and get all the good gear, and become even more elitist.

Duping is very bad for the game. The only reason I can think of as to why they allow it is if the dupers are actually spending $$ as well, and Cordo/Devs think it's a net win for them.

[arminius]

Almost as disturbing as a new duping exploit is the unprecedented fact that the devs leave a thread up openly discussing a live game exploit for more than a day. Does this signify a change in policy or are they just that distracted with the server maintenance issues? I'm fine with more transparency, if it's intentional and applied to broader issues than exploits.

[SpartanKiller13]

If that was true, they could drop the price and extract all the value themselves - no need for players to take a cut. Anything that offers too much rewards per time threatens their pay-to-bypass monetization.

The correct answer is they can make something new that hasn't been duped with 30+ levels, and that they are going to invalidate the game prior to level 30 anyway by designing all class changes around that 30+ content and issues, in the same manner we have seen heroic content invalidated since this team at SSG took over. Their "vision" was players running through content so fast that they complained about opening doors.

That's what I'm worried about; but the problem I see is if 1/4 the server gets 20 extra PL's and new content is balanced around that, will I be behind the curve? Does that mean I should be trying to buy some dubious boxes from the ASAH to catch up a bit? I'd love to box a few awkward lives (Ranger, Druid, and Artificer in particular).

I'm definitely not a hardcore endgame player, but I've slowly been working my way up to competence (like now I mostly run R4+ instead of R1+) and I'd hate to lose a few steps just because a lot of other players are getting a decent powerspike.

For some people maybe but my main is heroic completionist and I absolutely hated every single non-caster life to the point that I boxed about 4 of them and leveled as a caster and used hearts to swap classes before reincarnation for most of the rest. Hard to believe I know but some people play wizards because they enjoy playing wizards and not fighters, barbarians, rangers, or any other class there is.

Yeah, I've been trying to figure out how I'm going to get like Ranger PL while enjoying it lol.

You are aware that you don't need completionist, right?

Especially on a wizard?

M8 I'm a scrub, I could definitely use the 30ish HP and +1 DC's on a Wizard for the price of one feat.

Just because you can no-fail DC cast in high Reaper on a Sorc doesn't mean I can on a Wizard XD also I'd rather take Completionist than SF:Enchantment, especially since it also boosts my other DC's.

[Ishkaldur]

Their screen actually shows the tools they're using to dupe with.

You don't know what you are talking about.

All I see here are people being behind-hurt only because they will never reach as far as a Duper could go. You need to stop using straw mans and whataboutism and start addressing the real issue, which is not duping btw, but SSG.
SSG needs to change their creative-thinking, find a new source for their creativity because all they have been doing for longer than a decade is introduce the same thing with a different skin every time.
People have ENOUGH of chores. They also were fed up of doing chores and leaving after Sharn, long before the 1st duping method this time around went public.
In fact, duping gave those people incentive to come back and finish those chores faster. Now they can start playing the fun part of this game: pushing difficulties in quests/raids.
If you are so mad at dupers, in that case you should start looking at yourself... because that Silver Dragonscale Helmet, that Piston Boots, Silver Dragonscale Capelet and other very sought after raid gear- you probably got thanks to dupers.

That said, SSG is at fault here.


Also /notsigned

[slarden]

They aren’t making as much on 50 duped boxes as they would on 50 DDO STORE purchased boxes, but they weren’t going to sell those 50 boxes at $20-$40 each. They are making money on the process that’s involved duping and they are making money on players who have come back to the game because of the cheap boxes and they are making money on the hearts of blood (currently at 50% off). And they’re making money off the Astral Shards being used to purchase boxes from the ASAH.

Just like in all piracy, there are some benefits to the company and the costs to the company are wildly exaggerated.

I think you are over-estimating the benefits and underestimating the costs of the duping. The boxes on sarlona are priced 3 for 2500 astral shards. There are people that buy astral shards and people that accumulate them because there isn't much to buy. So some boxes will be bought buy people that are using their accumulated astral shards and big spenders might buy astral shards to the extent they are cheaper than buying boxes directly.

The people intentionally cheating are not spending more money. Don't forget their are still ill-gotten tokens and astral shards around. People inadvertently buying duped boxes on the ASAH might be spending some money, but I don't think the big spenders are spending more- they are likely just getting expensive things cheaper - so spending less because it's cheaper or spending the same and getting more for their money. Either way it's not a win for SSG.

If they want to keep boxes unbound they should definitely disallow selling boxes on the ASAH.

The costs are huge
- people quit the game because they are frustrated an honest person can't progress as fast
- otherwise good customers get caught up in exploiting towards the end of the cycle and get banned or get their character deleted and quit
- SSG has to spend time and money fixing the problem and trying to undo some of the of damage - taking away from real development

I can tell you last time around on Sarlona a d-bag of a person shared the exploit with several people/guilds he didn't like and then reported them all. At least 3 guilds are gone or shells of what they once were as a result.

[acemonkey]

I can tell you last time around on Sarlona a d-bag of a person shared the exploit with several people/guilds he didn't like and then reported them all. At least 3 guilds are gone or shells of what they once were as a result.

Sounds like a hero. Even if he was a d-bag before the event, getting a bunch of cheaters banned in hilarious fashion automatically redeems him.

[slarden]

Sounds like a hero. Even if he was a d-bag before the event, getting a bunch of cheaters banned in hilarious fashion automatically redeems him.

If you think someone discovering and sharing exploits and intentionally trying to hurt the game is a hero - I really feel sorry for you lol.

[grandeibra]

people being behind-hurt

Now they can start playing the fun part of this game: pushing difficulties in quests/raids.

That said, SSG is at fault here.

I really enjoy reading "behind-hurt" whiners try hard to justify cheating. Been part of my enjoyment of the game for what 14 years now? There is no need to dupe to enjoy the "pushing difficulty". One can go from casual to normal if going higher requires cheating.

And as always - if there is a product where one does not agree with how the company (that pays for creating it) is doing a poor job - there are a gazillion other things to do instead rather than staying with said company but having to justify cheating.

[Matuse]

If you think someone discovering and sharing exploits and intentionally trying to hurt the game is a hero - I really feel sorry for you lol.

Those people chose to cheat. If someone offered me a method of duping, I'd tell them to cram it up their backsides sideways. He's not to blame for their lack of morals.

[Ishkaldur]

I really enjoy reading "behind-hurt" whiners try hard to justify cheating. Been part of my enjoyment of the game for what 14 years now? There is no need to dupe to enjoy the "pushing difficulty". One can go from casual to normal if going higher requires cheating.

And as always - if there is a product where one does not agree with how the company (that pays for creating it) is doing a poor job - there are a gazillion other things to do instead rather than staying with said company but having to justify cheating.

"I really enjoy reading "behind-hurt" whiners try hard to justify cheating."

Yea me too for those who feel the need to force their perspective on cheating.
There is no need to "justify" anything and I'm not justifying. I'm merely sharing my perspective.
Cheating is merely a form of gameplay, there are no morals attached to it.
If you do not like it, then do not do it. Let others play however they want, as long as it does not hurt you or the game, which in this case it does not. (Except the ASAH inflation of course)

"There is no need to dupe to enjoy the "pushing difficulty". One can go from casual to normal if going higher requires cheating."

Point went over your head. It is not about the "need" it is about bypassing a heckton of chores that is most likely finished in the same amount of time the game itself has been released, at least for people who have a life, you know, work, family etc..?
And ok, you try doing Baba on R10 on a first life.

[nokowi]

That's what I'm worried about; but the problem I see is if 1/4 the server gets 20 extra PL's and new content is balanced around that, will I be behind the curve? Does that mean I should be trying to buy some dubious boxes from the ASAH to catch up a bit? I'd love to box a few awkward lives (Ranger, Druid, and Artificer in particular).

I'm definitely not a hardcore endgame player, but I've slowly been working my way up to competence (like now I mostly run R4+ instead of R1+) and I'd hate to lose a few steps just because a lot of other players are getting a decent powerspike.

20 PL's is about 2 months honest work for the people SSG will design the game around, and the advantages of using all the latest bugs and features in a knowledgeable group (vs solo) is just way bigger than 20 past lives. It's a drop in the pond.

SSG has much bigger design problems than giving away 20 free past lives. They have painted themselves in a corner, as per their usual design process, and they have one option, which is to make level 30+ invalidate everything else, and abandon many of the old systems that non-duping players worked for. DDO is a minefield of past abandoned systems.

As someone that made it to everything completionist without dupes, XP pots, or meta build, their only good solution takes more time and effort and care than they have shown in the past, and it is to focus on making the game enjoyable. It involves focusing on the people saying what is fun (absent rewards), and making the reward model a feature of their design rather than the only thing they design around.

When they live by the rewards-only model, and they can't manage rewards, their design fails. They may need to push everyone into hardcore, while leaving main servers as yet another abandoned system. That's what happens with poor design choices, the potential good responses are few.

Better design choices are needed from SSG.


Hiding from the player base saying "this is what would make the game more fun" for 3+ years is and always will be a mistake. When they start supporting stealth and many more interesting play styles, they will be better able to manage rewards issues because they will build a much bigger player base that is actually here to enjoy the game.

[SerPounce]

"I really enjoy reading "behind-hurt" whiners try hard to justify cheating."

Yea me too for those who feel the need to force their perspective on cheating.
There is no need to "justify" anything and I'm not justifying. I'm merely sharing my perspective.
Cheating is merely a form of gameplay, there are no morals attached to it.
If you do not like it, then do not do it. Let others play however they want, as long as it does not hurt you or the game, which in this case it does not. (Except the ASAH inflation of course)

"There is no need to dupe to enjoy the "pushing difficulty". One can go from casual to normal if going higher requires cheating."

Point went over your head. It is not about the "need" it is about bypassing a heckton of chores that is most likely finished in the same amount of time the game itself has been released, at least for people who have a life, you know, work, family etc..?
And ok, you try doing Baba on R10 on a first life.

Yuck. I take back my statement that SSG should consider less harsh punishments. This is a great example of why cheaters have to have their accounts banned or characters deleted. They're never going to "get it" or decide to play fair, and since punishment is realistically never going to be very consistent with these things it has to be very harsh when implemented. They're a cancer on online games and need to be dealt with using extreme prejudice.

[Ishkaldur]

They're a cancer on online games...

I think this counts as calling people names. You might get an infraction, please change that, I care for you. We are human too.
I have the same sentiment for Online PVP/FPS games, but no need to exaggerate for online PVE, pal.

[SpartanKiller13]

20 PL's is about 2 months honest work for the people SSG will design the game around, and the advantages of using all the latest bugs and features in a knowledgeable group (vs solo) is just way bigger than 20 past lives. It's a drop in the pond.

SSG has much bigger design problems than giving away 20 free past lives. They have painted themselves in a corner, as per their usual design process, and they have one option, which is to make level 30+ invalidate everything else, and abandon many of the old systems that non-duping players worked for. DDO is a minefield of past abandoned systems.

It's about 3 years of work for me FWIW lol. Sure, if you have 120 PL's it's less impactful, but I'm at 28 PL's so it'd get me Completionist and a handful of Racial AP which is pretty decent gains from where I am. Not everyone TR's every 3 days XD

I don't think level 30+ will invalidate everything prior; even if it diminishes the value of it, full completionist is +6 stats over someone new. Add on all the PL benefits, and it's a pretty big difference even if stats now go to 200 on a regular basis.

[nokowi]

It's about 3 years of work for me FWIW lol. Sure, if you have 120 PL's it's less impactful, but I'm at 28 PL's so it'd get me Completionist and a handful of Racial AP which is pretty decent gains from where I am. Not everyone TR's every 3 days XD

In a rewards-only driven model where SSG can't manage rewards, players are highly motivated to take advantage of the latest bug, exploit, or cheat.

Sure 20 PL's means a lot to you, but giving you 20 free PL's wouldn't do much if the remaining 100 are another 15 years of work for you. From their design perspective, you don't really matter because you are not driving how they assign rewards.

I don't think level 30+ will invalidate everything prior; even if it diminishes the value of it, full completionist is +6 stats over someone new. Add on all the PL benefits, and it's a pretty big difference even if stats now go to 200 on a regular basis.

Well, you can look at history as an example and look at how important +10 HP or +1 to one skill are, and how easy players that the game IS designed around can grab a heroic past life. The important design point is that SSG will trivialize pre-30 content as they design around 30+ content, and players in pre-30 content will overwhelmingly play what is 5x more powerful than what exists now - as the game is designed around the "new" thing at 30+ and pre-30 balance gets broken over time. Quite a few builds will get worse, but design around 30+ will create over time brokenly OP builds for anything before level 30, while not supporting some of the builds that are enjoyable for you right now. You only have to look at how they abandoned stealth to add their reaper system to see that they will abandon more pre-30 builds with their 30+ design.

You correctly express the concern that SSG will design new content around the player power curve. What you are not realizing is to what extent the new thing they are selling (30+ design) will change pre-30 content to the detriment of the design in all existing content, and that their response to duping (invalidating the old stuff that could be duped) is very likely going to exacerbate this even more.

As pre-30 balance is broken over time, the rate at which other players that SSG does design around get those 120 past lives will be even faster relative to what you do, and you will fall further behind the power curve they are designing around. That is a direct result of breaking the pre-30 game balance when designing around 30+.

Maybe SSG will finally choose good design for 30+, but so far they have shown little understanding of the type of design that makes their game easier to develop and more enjoyable to play.

[grandeibra]

Yea me too for those who feel the need to force their perspective on cheating... I'm merely sharing my perspective.

My perspective on cheating. Doing things that the storeowner or IP owners has not agreed to let the person do, like the duping in this case.

Cheating is merely a form of gameplay, there are no morals attached to it.

And again the attempt to justify cheating. Enjoyed reading that.

If you do not like it, then do not do it. Let others play however they want, as long as it does not hurt you or the game, which in this case it does not. (Except the ASAH inflation of course)

Again the attempt at justifying cheating. And erroneous analysis of how the cheating affects the company and people who actually work to create the content.

Point went over your head. It is not about the "need" it is about bypassing a heckton of chores

Bypassing, hence cheating. And again there is no need to do it, one can just run normal or elite or r3 if R10 is too tough without cheating the creator of the content.

in the same amount of time the game itself has been released, at least for people who have a life, you know, work, family etc..?

again attempts at justifying cheating, this time by pointing to "hey I got a life so I want my in game rewards an power faster since you know I got other things I have to spend time on as well"

And ok, you try doing Baba on R10 on a first life.

Errm over whose head now? Of course I wouldn't, that is the whole point. I also wouldn't attempt to climb Mount Everest without investing time in prepping for ir, nor would I demand to be CEO of a company without investing time and energy, or expect to have the world's finest art collection without paying for it
If one doesn't have the time or funds or energy or will to spend time and money in the fashion the content creator and owner has decied - then one can challenge oneslef by going from casual to normal instead.

In sum, your entire post is clearly about trying to justify cheating. Thank you! I enjoy reading posts where people clearly have a misplaced sense of entitlement to stuff that other people own and worked for. Keep 'em coming!

[GramercyRiff]

Cheating is a form of gameplay is some solid trolling. 8/10 imo.

The fact this thread still exists, coupled with this week's sales, makes me entertain the possibility that SSG wants the cheaters to cheat.