Changes Based on Preview 2 Feedback

[Xgya]

Hey, all!

We wanted to take some time to let you know the changes that have been made to U45 systems based on the feedback provided after Preview 2. We don't have a third preview of U45 on our schedule but felt that it was important to make available updated information this week now that we've had time to parse through the copious feedback. The list below contains design changes in areas that your feedback has swayed us to make. The lists below do not contain bug fixes (which there are already quite a few of).

This is a great initiative, and most of the stuff mentioned WAS in the feedback threads.
Feedback on our feedback is pretty important in my mind, this is great overall, even though some people might still complain it's not moving in the direction they specifically aimed for.

[Xgya]

[*]Misc

• Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave, Whirlwind Attack can now Doublestrike. (Other skills that are Cleave-like also now Doublestrike as a result).
• Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, KOTC's Cleave enhancements, Smite Evil, and Exalted Smite are now affected by your attack speed.
• Ranger: Tempest: Dance of Death now applies it's strike through buff even if the attack does not make contact with an enemy.
• Leap of Faith from Exalted Angel no longer holds you in place after activation.
• Items with new Ghostbane effects now deal their bane damage to all Undead, not just Incorporeal monsters
• The Cores of Sacred Defender now properly increase your Maximum HP by 1 point per AP spent

[/LIST]

Alright,THOSE were the Cleave changes I wanted to see. Definitely good news for anyone using the moves at higher levels.
The changes to Dance of Death are welcome. Still feels like a nerf, but that new functionality is a decent consolation prize.

[Cetus]

The cumulative effect of these changes will result in objective offensive superiority of barbarians over Kensei's. I mean, this is digging a grave for Kensei's.

Here's a point for point comparison between the two, assuming that both are pure and half-orc:

Melee power: Pure fighter gets 70 (60 from tree, 10mp from 5 weapon spec/weapon focus related feats), Barbarian gets 28 with potential for 43 with special attacks. Fighter wins 27-42 melee power here.

Strength: Barbarian has a grand total of 22 with halforc, fighter gets a grand total of 12 (8 power surge, 2 capstone, 2 kensei tree). Barb wins a net of 10 strength, which is 15 damage with a 3x modifier.


- Add to this titan grip clickies and warforged titan cookies (since power surge still has that moronic "psionic bonus"), barbarian has a grand total of 16 net strength, which is actually 24 damage ahead.

Damage bonuses: Barbarian also has 6 damage from first fury core, and 6 PA. That's another 12 damage, 36 total now.

Weapon Dice Bonuses: Let's say they're using a greataxe, with a 1d12 + 6 profile. Barbarian receives 1[W] from raging blows, 2[W] from cracking attack and 1[W] from deadly weapons. Deadly weapons net benefits all non-kensei's because it stupidly and unjustly OVERRIDES one cut, the level 18 kensei core multiplier.

So, 1d12 + 6 = 12.5 average damage, x4 = 50 damage

So barb is now 36 from before + 50 = 86 net damage

Barbarian capstone clikie: Another 25 damage. 111 damage.

Fighter Damage Bonus: Weapon spec feats and kensei tree gets a total of 17 damage for two-handers.

Fighter wins a melee power advantage of 27-42 (depending on barbarian special attacks), but barbarian wins a net of (111 - 17), or 94 damage.

If we treat melee power as being roughly equal to 1 point of damage. Then barbarian wins a net total of 52-67 points of damage per swing.

STRIKE THROUGH CHANCE: Fighter receives NO UNIQUE BONUS. Barbarian is receiving a whopping 90%, or nearly 1 additional target on every hit, over fighter.

Barbarian Critical profile: With a greataxe, attack rolls of 2-17 deals X damage, Hit on an 18 deals 5x damage, hits 19-20 deal 6x damage. This amounts to 33x

Fighter Critical Profile: With a greaxe, attack rolls of 2-16 deals X damage, hit 17-20 deals 4x damage. This amounts to 31x
WIth one cut activated, this adds another X to attack rolls 17-20, increasing it to 35x. It has a 25% up time, so the weighted average = .25(35) + .75(31) = 8.75 + 23.75 = 32.5.

So if one cut is up 25% of the time, like it is supposed to, fighter's overall critical profile lags behind by .5x. With the one cut bug being overriden by deadly, fighter is effectively sitting at 31x vs. barbs 35x.

I guess in this situation, fighter has the 1[W] at least, so their net DPS is behind by (52-67 points of damage per swing) - 12.5. So, critical profile is far worse, and damage is still worse by 40-55 points of damage a swing.

Doublestrike is achievable to 100% on both characters as well, albeit barb would need an extra twist over fighter to achieve that.

With the cleave changes, supreme cleave becomes very powerful with a 3 second cooldown at a 100% doublestrike.

Oh, and keep in mind that barb gets this with all weapons. The kensei is stuck with the specific weapon selected.

Some unquantified differences:
Fighter receives a good death, shattering blow and deadly strike. Barbarian receives slaughter, tantrum, cracking attack.
Fighter receives haste boost in the tree. Barbarian would need haste boost twisted.

Defensively: Barbarian beats kensei in heavy armor as well, even with all the fighter heavy armor proficiency feats because of the innate 9% DR that barbs have on top of their PRR/MRR.

If we also incorporate improved uncanny dodge there and the larger hitpoint pool, barbarian is pulling significantly ahead of kensei.

Fighter would have to go into LD to benefit from stalwart stances if we want to make them defensively competitive to barbarian. But the loss of fury undermines this entire comparison, as this is for offense.

Solution:

1. Please make one-cut stack with deadly weapons. Death frenzy doesnt get overriden, does it? Why should fighter suffer?
2. Change the power surge bonus to NOT be psionic. I mentioned this in the very thread when this was first done many years ago.They are not psions. And warforged titan gloves/cookies are unfairly benefiting non-kensei's. Once again kensei's get shafted in the face of temporary DPS buffs here...
2. Please incorporate additional strike through chances for kensei, as you did for paladin. Kensei's are weapon masters, how the hell is a paladin hitting more targets all the time?
3. Fighter capstone should lift the doublestrike cap by 15% as well. They get doublestrike bonuses that are to no benefit when barbarians are already reaching 100% on their own.

[Cetus]

Falchion (Barb): 2-14x, 15-18 x4, 19-20 x5 = 39x

Falchion (Fighter): 2-13x, 14-20 x3 = 33x
Falchion (Fighter + one cut): = 40x
Falchion (fighter, weighted average): .75*33 + .25*40 = 24.75 + 10 = 35.75

[Komradkillingmachine]

.

"Leap of Faith from Exalted Angel no longer holds you in place after activation."

Lynn, will you marry me?

[Volanthro]

The cumulative effect of these changes will result in objective offensive superiority of barbarians over Kensei's. I mean, this is digging a grave for Kensei's.

Here's a point for point comparison between the two, assuming that both are pure and half-orc:

Melee power: Pure fighter gets 70 (60 from tree, 10mp from 5 weapon spec/weapon focus related feats), Barbarian gets 28 with potential for 43 with special attacks. Fighter wins 27-42 melee power here.

Strength: Barbarian has a grand total of 22 with halforc, fighter gets a grand total of 12 (8 power surge, 2 capstone, 2 kensei tree). Barb wins a net of 10 strength, which is 15 damage with a 3x modifier.


- Add to this titan grip clickies and warforged titan cookies (since power surge still has that moronic "psionic bonus"), barbarian has a grand total of 16 net strength, which is actually 24 damage ahead.

Damage bonuses: Barbarian also has 6 damage from first fury core, and 6 PA. That's another 12 damage, 36 total now.

Weapon Dice Bonuses: Let's say they're using a greataxe, with a 1d12 + 6 profile. Barbarian receives 1[W] from raging blows, 2[W] from cracking attack and 1[W] from deadly weapons. Deadly weapons net benefits all non-kensei's because it stupidly and unjustly OVERRIDES one cut, the level 18 kensei core multiplier.

So, 1d12 + 6 = 12.5 average damage, x4 = 50 damage

So barb is now 36 from before + 50 = 86 net damage

Barbarian capstone clikie: Another 25 damage. 111 damage.

Fighter Damage Bonus: Weapon spec feats and kensei tree gets a total of 17 damage for two-handers.

Fighter wins a melee power advantage of 27-42 (depending on barbarian special attacks), but barbarian wins a net of (111 - 17), or 94 damage.

If we treat melee power as being roughly equal to 1 point of damage. Then barbarian wins a net total of 52-67 points of damage per swing.

STRIKE THROUGH CHANCE: Fighter receives NO UNIQUE BONUS. Barbarian is receiving a whopping 90%, or nearly 1 additional target on every hit, over fighter.

Barbarian Critical profile: With a greataxe, attack rolls of 2-17 deals X damage, Hit on an 18 deals 5x damage, hits 19-20 deal 6x damage. This amounts to 33x

Fighter Critical Profile: With a greaxe, attack rolls of 2-16 deals X damage, hit 17-20 deals 4x damage. This amounts to 31x
WIth one cut activated, this adds another X to attack rolls 17-20, increasing it to 35x. It has a 25% up time, so the weighted average = .25(35) + .75(31) = 8.75 + 23.75 = 32.5.

So if one cut is up 25% of the time, like it is supposed to, fighter's overall critical profile lags behind by .5x. With the one cut bug being overriden by deadly, fighter is effectively sitting at 31x vs. barbs 35x.

I guess in this situation, fighter has the 1[W] at least, so their net DPS is behind by (52-67 points of damage per swing) - 12.5. So, critical profile is far worse, and damage is still worse by 40-55 points of damage a swing.

Doublestrike is achievable to 100% on both characters as well, albeit barb would need an extra twist over fighter to achieve that.

With the cleave changes, supreme cleave becomes very powerful with a 3 second cooldown at a 100% doublestrike.

Oh, and keep in mind that barb gets this with all weapons. The kensei is stuck with the specific weapon selected.

Some unquantified differences:
Fighter receives a good death, shattering blow and deadly strike. Barbarian receives slaughter, tantrum, cracking attack.
Fighter receives haste boost in the tree. Barbarian would need haste boost twisted.

Defensively: Barbarian beats kensei in heavy armor as well, even with all the fighter heavy armor proficiency feats because of the innate 9% DR that barbs have on top of their PRR/MRR.

If we also incorporate improved uncanny dodge there and the larger hitpoint pool, barbarian is pulling significantly ahead of kensei.

Fighter would have to go into LD to benefit from stalwart stances if we want to make them defensively competitive to barbarian. But the loss of fury undermines this entire comparison, as this is for offense.

Solution:

1. Please make one-cut stack with deadly weapons. Death frenzy doesnt get overriden, does it? Why should fighter suffer?
2. Change the power surge bonus to NOT be psionic. I mentioned this in the very thread when this was first done many years ago.They are not psions. And warforged titan gloves/cookies are unfairly benefiting non-kensei's. Once again kensei's get shafted in the face of temporary DPS buffs here...
2. Please incorporate additional strike through chances for kensei, as you did for paladin. Kensei's are weapon masters, how the hell is a paladin hitting more targets all the time?
3. Fighter capstone should lift the doublestrike cap by 15% as well. They get doublestrike bonuses that are to no benefit when barbarians are already reaching 100% on their own.

Glad I rolled a Pure Barb instead of Fighter this life :P

[Galac]

For Bears that want to max strikethru and abil-to-dmg w/ a Bswd/DA and shield...that would require 3 NF feats *and* the THF line?

[Cetus]

Glad I rolled a Pure Barb instead of Fighter this life :P

Lol, and there you go =D Hack away!

[Graskitch]

sorry disregard my post - I see my error. I see now that I was confusing doublestrike with strikethrough in cocomajobo's notes about cleaves.

[GroundhogDay]

[*][*]The cap on Strikethrough targets is now 5 (at 400%).[*][*]The THF feat now grants 60% Strikethrough.[*][*]The ITHF feat now grants 30% Strikethrough.[*][*]The GTHF feat now grants 30% Strikethrough.[*][*]The PTHF feat now grants 30% Strikethrough.[*][*]The PTHF feat now functions properly if you don't have the full 3-feat THF line.[*][*]Bonuses to Strikethrough from the 4-feat THF line now properly stack (previously, only the highest-level version of the Feat line you had applied its Strikethrough bonus).[*][*]Enhancements
[LIST][*][*][*]Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker: Angry Arms now grants +5/10/20% Strikethrough Chance.[*][*][*]Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker: Mad Munitions now grants +5/10/20% Strikethrough Chance.[*][*][*]Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker: Focus Wide's on-Vorpal buff now grants 50% Strikethrough Chance in place of its previous Glancing Blow component.

Nice! With just that a barb would have a starting 250 ST, can anyone tell me if you added ST percentages to Fury of the Wild malicious and wild weapons too? 10% for 3 destiny points it's still a little steep and it would net me a total standing 270 (370 when unbridled fury is active), would it be too much to make them give 10/20/30%? Or at least capping them at 15% if one takes both? That way a barb in FOTW with all the bells and whistles would be capped at a standing 300% with a quick 400% when unbridled.

[PurpleTimb]

I'm optimistic about the buffs to THF; double strike on cleave has been a long time coming.

I don't understand why all the enhancement based changes to archery are coming in the Deepwood Stalker tree. The Arcane Archer tree is exclusive to bow users, but what archer would ever take Tier 5 in the AA tree after Update 45?

Alchemist is going to be inquisitive 2.0. Despite lots of feedback from two rounds of previews, the class is going to be so strong that it will need to be nerfed into the ground.

[Requiro]

(...)You will likely notice that these lists do not contain any further Ranged Style changes (...) For the time being we are comfortable with where Ranged has landed. (...)

I wonder where is it.... In the middle of nowhere?

Simple question: When everyone will jumped from (old)OP Inquisitor to (new)OP Alchemist, then can we get IPS nerf removed?

About THF - good move. More target = more fun. It's sad, that testing will be live only.

[Atronos_The_Titan]

Thank you, this is better.

[srxmk2]

Is it possible to make "Righteous Command" a common divine spell instead of paladin only? Warpriests and war souls need some love with the new update

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

Lol, and there you go =D Hack away!

Hey Cetus,

How do I get doublestrike to 100% as a barb? Currently I am quite a bit lower than that so very interested to know.

[Bjond]

Suggestion: permit something to be worn in the off-hand slot to help balance out the difficulty THF builds have activating set bonuses compared to non-THF builds. IMHO, permitting bracers to be worn in the OH slot with a 2H weapon might make more sense than creating a new item type. I'm unsure if permitting all stats and effects from such an item would be too much or not (there are arguments for both sides), but certainly permitting augment slot and set count to take effect would be more balanced than the current state.

[Ballrus]

It was clear that we had undershot the THF overhaul in a couple of areas.

• We undershot (and backloaded) the Strikethrough values so that it wasn't fun to hit 1 maybe 2 enemies until high level where you would then hit 2 maybe 3 enemies.
• The ripple effect of losing Glancing Blows was felt heavily for Hand and a Half wielders and Bears.

In order to address those issues we have implemented the following changes internally. These are designed to both boost the total Strikethrough that players will end up with as well as frontload it so that it starts feeling good at lower levels. In addition, we have implemented some changes to make up for the loss of Glancing Blows to both Hand and a Half Wielders as well as Bears.

Changes from Preview 2

• Characters no longer require the feat "Two Handed Fighting" in order to be able to Strikethrough while moving.
• As the moving restriction on Strikethrough has been removed, the Dwarf skill we previewed that removed that restriction has been removed as well.
• The cap on Strikethrough targets is now 5 (at 400%).
• The THF feat now grants 60% Strikethrough.
• The ITHF feat now grants 30% Strikethrough.
• The GTHF feat now grants 30% Strikethrough.
• The PTHF feat now grants 30% Strikethrough.
• The PTHF feat now functions properly if you don't have the full 3-feat THF line.
• Bonuses to Strikethrough from the 4-feat THF line now properly stack (previously, only the highest-level version of the Feat line you had applied its Strikethrough bonus).
• Enhancements
  
  • Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker: Angry Arms now grants +5/10/20% Strikethrough Chance.
  • Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker: Mad Munitions now grants +5/10/20% Strikethrough Chance.
  • Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker: Focus Wide's on-Vorpal buff now grants 50% Strikethrough Chance in place of its previous Glancing Blow component.
  • Rogue: Thief Acrobat: Rogue Improved Glancing Blows has been renamed to "Improved Second Strikes", and now grants +5/10/20% Strikethrough Chance
  • Rogue: Thief Acrobat: Follow-Through's Tumble buff now grants +50% Strikethrough Chance (replacing its previous ability to hit additional targets)
  • Paladin: Knight of the Chalice: Replaces "Knight's Command" with "Improved Second Strikes" which grants +5/10/20% Strikethrough Chance
  • Artificer: Battle Engineer: Each Tier of Hand and a Half Training now grants 5% Strikethrough Chance (replacing the previous Glancing Blow component).
  • All instances of Great Weapon Aptitude are now +5/10/20% Strikethrough Chance
• Hand and a Half Weapons
  
  • Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe now apply 1.1x your relevant Ability Score Modifier to damage. This stacks with the bonuses from Improved and Greater Single Weapon Fighting.
  • Improved Two Handed Fighting now also improves Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe to 1.35x your relevant Ability Score Modifier to damage
  • Greater Two Handed Fighting now also improves Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe to 1.6x your relevant Ability Score Modifier to damage
• Wild Shape
  
  • The 1st bear attack in the chain was not benefiting from ability mulitplers correctly such as the 1.5 bonus for using a 2 handed weapon but now is.
  • Bears now gain +60/30/30% Strikethrough when they take Natural Weapon Fighting their first, second, and third time respectively.
  • Bears now update their Ability Score Modifier to Damage while using a Two Handed Weapon to 2.0/2.5/3.0 when they take Natural Weapon Fighting their first, second, and third time respectively.
  • Wolves and Bears no longer increase their Ability Score Modifier to Damage while using a Two Handed Weapon when they take the 3-feat THF line (this only really happened internally/on Lamannia not Live).

Thank you very much.

[Ballrus]

Thank you very much.

Also, is possible to add some ST bonuses on kensai cores? It's wierd that Rogues and Artificers have it and the weapon master dont have any.

And allow One Cut stack with Deadly Weapons (again)?

[Ballrus]

Is there some animation change to Whrilwind Attack, because that double spin is only effective on Monks.

Is possible to make WW Atk works just like the cleave? (only one spin)

Thanks.

[Ballrus]

[*]Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave, Whirlwind Attack can now Doublestrike. (Other skills that are Cleave-like also now Doublestrike as a result).[*]Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, KOTC's Cleave enhancements, Smite Evil, and Exalted Smite are now affected by your attack speed.

Including ED's cleaves? (Lay Waste, Strike Down)