U45 Preview 1: Balance: Ranged Combat Changes

[DRoark]

Wow, quite the coincidence that you happened to be watching that while posting, just like the poster you replied to was watching the opposite.

It was actually an hour ago, but it felt like he needed a snarky reply, since I know he's not typing while watching that either. )

The mechanic died trying to be a hero. Too bad that +10,000 AC didn't work, guess that mob had +10,001 to hit.

[Ashlayna]

Ranged characters take damage from ranged monsters, which are the monsters that deal the least damage in the game right now, and might be hit by melee monsters if they fail to move around properly or get stuck.
Melee characters take damage from both melee and ranged monsters.

Casters are ranged mobs, so your post is invalid. Hey, this does make discussion easier.

[Xgya]

Casters are ranged mobs, so your post is invalid. Hey, this does make discussion easier.

Are you implying casters deal more damage than Carnage Reapers?
That the defenses available against magic damage aren't more common and more easily obtained than defenses against melee damage?

The most dangerous melee foes in the game deal more damage than the most dangerous ranged foes in the game.
Ergo, ranged monsters are the ones that deal the least damage.
This works even BETTER if you just take the averages instead, because most ranged monsters in the game are archers.

You trying to ignore the issue here is yet more proof that you're just here trying to irk people and not actually trying to make a valid argument.

[Ashlayna]

Are you implying casters deal more damage than Carnage Reapers?
That the defenses available against magic damage aren't more common and more easily obtained than defenses against melee damage?

The most dangerous melee foes in the game deal more damage than the most dangerous ranged foes in the game.
Ergo, ranged monsters are the ones that deal the least damage.
This works even BETTER if you just take the averages instead, because most ranged monsters in the game are archers.

You trying to ignore the issue here is yet more proof that you're just here trying to irk people and not actually trying to make a valid argument.

I've made all the valid arguments that can be made, and tomorrow's update to Lama will tell just how much, or how little difference it has actually made. I have absolutely 0 interest in convincing you, you're already stuck on "but my melee". The solution to your problem is already in game, play a lower difficulty. The solution to the problems I have outlined, in threads here, and in the General forum, are not in game yet, and despite your love affair with "it's not fair, ranged shouldn't be able to kill things before I can close", you're not solving any problems. I pointed this out earlier, but in your rush to silence, you likely overlooked it, or, being as "but my melee" wasn't going to address it, chose to ignore it. The last iteration on Lama will not address ranged being able to kill before you close, mostly, because if we're going to run with the whole reason people scream it needs nerfed is IPS, a 20% reduction isn't going to quell a lot of your issues. If it takes 5 shots to kill a conga line, it will now take 6 shots, based entirely on base damage, w/out factoring in imbues, or other damage sources from the actual weapons, since none of this is affected. But, you do get to feel good about yourself, I guess, for getting a weapon set that, even according to the devs is underperforming overall, bows, nerfed some more. Congratulations?

Some people will swap to different builds to accommodate these changes, others will mothball characters, not wanting to delete possibly years of investment in them, and others, like myself, will simply cancel my VIP, remove our credit cards from SSG's database, if it's there, and spend that money on other games, even if we decide to continue playing. Why? Because I've already been through the "I guess we can carry you" when you show up to a party running a pure AA. I've already been through the "if you're not monkcher/(insert FotM here), you're not welcome". I'm surely not going to pay to go through it again. It took years to get out of that, only to have melee screaming "but it's not fair that they're ranged", or to invent hyperbolic arguments like "but 10,000 AC/PRR" because they don't have legitimate arguments, this last, ironically, trying to smash someone else's credibility on the forums... At the end of the day, gimping ranged to accommodate melee isn't going to make R10 easier, and neither is it going to make melee perform better in R10. In fact, I'd argue that it's going to make more melee players quit, either the game, paying or the playstyle. It's not going to suddenly make those melee mobs have lower damage on attacks, it's going to make it worse, because you don't have anyone to either kill them outright, or soften them up. That is, of course, assuming you get all the nerfs you think ranged players need to accommodate your own shortcomings. By all means, make a valid argument, "ranged players have 10k AC/PRR" isn't one.

[palladin9479]

Are you implying casters deal more damage than Carnage Reapers?
That the defenses available against magic damage aren't more common and more easily obtained than defenses against melee damage?

The most dangerous melee foes in the game deal more damage than the most dangerous ranged foes in the game.
Ergo, ranged monsters are the ones that deal the least damage.
This works even BETTER if you just take the averages instead, because most ranged monsters in the game are archers.

You trying to ignore the issue here is yet more proof that you're just here trying to irk people and not actually trying to make a valid argument.

Mostly their just hoping to convince the devs not to nerf IPS because it really is the powerhouse that drives ranged combat style. What they do is start shooting from a distance which agro's a pack of mobs, they then run backwards causing those mobs to string out and form a Congo line due to pathing. The ranged players then mow down the pack of mobs long before the mobs even reach them. They then move to the next room and do the same, except now it's easier because even more space to run backwards. The only time this tactic doesn't work is when the level forces you to fight a pack of mobs in close quarters without a hallway nearby to string them down, instead they have to run in a circle or find a nice safe spot up high where they can shoot down.

At high reaper levels monsters ranged attacks hit for like 200~300 while their melee attacks hit for 3000~5000+, it's not even a comparison. Mid to high reaper is ruled by ranged precisely because they can use that 10,000 AC that the distance between them and the target provides to defend against those crazy melee hits.

[Xgya]

I've made all the valid arguments that can be made, and tomorrow's update to Lama will tell just how much, or how little difference it has actually made. I have absolutely 0 interest in convincing you, you're already stuck on "but my melee". The solution to your problem is already in game, play a lower difficulty. The solution to the problems I have outlined, in threads here, and in the General forum, are not in game yet, and despite your love affair with "it's not fair, ranged shouldn't be able to kill things before I can close", you're not solving any problems. I pointed this out earlier, but in your rush to silence, you likely overlooked it, or, being as "but my melee" wasn't going to address it, chose to ignore it.

Full disclosure: I'm an AWFUL melee.
I've been using crossbows ever since the Artificer came out, and never looked back.
My Paladin lives were all some mix of crossbow-toting maniacs.
My Barbarian lives were Rogue/Arti/Barbarian entirely ignoring the fact Barbarian had AP and class trees to spend them.
I can't play a Monk to save my own skin. I played quite a few monkchers, but even then, not my playstyle.

While this doesn't represent most players, the fact you think I was arguing only about myself and my own life and not out of concern for the general health of the game says more about you than it does about me.

As for why, this is mostly because I've gotten people telling me I was killing things fast enough for them not to be able to land Finger of Death without quickening it in a few heroic quests.
They said that laughingly, and most likely didn't resent me for helping the quest move along, but that doesn't mean that some people won't.
I'll be hit severely by the nerf, and it might change my playstyle quite a bit, but I can also understand where the reasoning behind it comes from.

TL;DR: some people think about other people they play with instead of deliberately trying to sabotage them.

[Ashlayna]

Mostly their just hoping to convince the devs not to nerf IPS because it really is the powerhouse that drives ranged combat style. What they do is start shooting from a distance which agro's a pack of mobs, they then run backwards causing those mobs to string out and form a Congo line due to pathing. The ranged players then mow down the pack of mobs long before the mobs even reach them. They then move to the next room and do the same, except now it's easier because even more space to run backwards. The only time this tactic doesn't work is when the level forces you to fight a pack of mobs in close quarters without a hallway nearby to string them down, instead they have to run in a circle or find a nice safe spot up high where they can shoot down.

At high reaper levels monsters ranged attacks hit for like 200~300 while their melee attacks hit for 3000~5000+, it's not even a comparison. Mid to high reaper is ruled by ranged precisely because they can use that 10,000 AC that the distance between them and the target provides to defend against those crazy melee hits.

You know, in the great wide world of MMOs, there are people that land here that have played ranged toons in other games, watch the definition of "kiting" presented here, and laugh their asses off. In these other multitudes of MMOs, a ranged character is used to pull mobs to the group. Of course, in these other mystical, apparently non-existent MMOs, they're not trying to zerg through quests for the completion, all while complaining that the mobs are dying too fast. I came from such MMOs. In one, I had a toggle that reduced my threat to 0. I could take a mob from 100 to 10% HP, and you could hit it unarmed for one damage, and get aggro off of me. Why? Because that toggle was meant to be used to pull. In that MMO, grind was very real, it was the only way to level, at the time, after about level 80, and the xp required to get from 115 to 116 was equal to the xp required to get from 0 to 80. Meaning I had lots of time to learn to play a ranged toon as both a pure DPS, and as a puller. I can't even begin to outline the number of hours I spent running around in a circle around the party, with a pack of mobs chasing me, so the tank could pull them off me with a taunt, the real definition of "kite". I'm sorry that your experience is based on what kiting is defined as here, but for some of us, that definition is a joke. If I were the type to make gaming videos, I'd use "kiters" here as an example of what not to do.

Full disclosure: I'm an AWFUL melee.
I've been using crossbows ever since the Artificer came out, and never looked back.
My Paladin lives were all some mix of crossbow-toting maniacs.
My Barbarian lives were Rogue/Arti/Barbarian entirely ignoring the fact Barbarian had AP and class trees to spend them.
I can't play a Monk to save my own skin. I played quite a few monkchers, but even then, not my playstyle.

While this doesn't represent most players, the fact you think I was arguing only about myself and my own life and not out of concern for the general health of the game says more about you than it does about me.

As for why, this is mostly because I've gotten people telling me I was killing things fast enough for them not to be able to land Finger of Death without quickening it in a few heroic quests.
They said that laughingly, and most likely didn't resent me for helping the quest move along, but that doesn't mean that some people won't.
I'll be hit severely by the nerf, and it might change my playstyle quite a bit, but I can also understand where the reasoning behind it comes from.

TL;DR: some people think about other people they play with instead of deliberately trying to sabotage them.

Irony: I've been grouping with the same people for 7 years. When I'm not actively playing, they miss having me around. Why? Because I can play with the top tier players, but I don't. I prefer fun to "zerg zerg zerg". If the group's struggling in Elite, I have no problem with stepping down to Hard, let alone stepping into or out of Reaper. I play what they want to play, and I've never heard any real complaints, although one of my guild mates did say he was scared of my FvS AA once. I've run in groups with them and used them for bait on my assassin, so I could assassinate spiders, or beholders, all while reading about how assassins were unplayable on these very forums. My guild's second was reminiscing the other day about my assassin, on it's first life, getting caught in the blade trap room in Haunted Halls, thinking I was going to die, and instead I searched up the box, and disabled the trap, while watching "Evade evade evade" on my screen. I play some fairly straight forward stuff, a Pure Arti, with no Inquisitive, since there was no such thing for either of it's TRs. An 18/2 Mech/Arti, so I could use rune arms. One of my guildmates is convinced I can make an AA out of anything, because he's seen me run Ranger, and complain about how boring it is, a pure Druid AA, a 14/6 Druid/Ranger AA for Druid past lives on my main arti, who is currently a Ranger AA. Hell, I ran a pure Wizard AA, because I hate casters. I ran a barbarian sorc once, a Drow Sorc EK. I ran around in the Spinner chain wielding a Great Axe, bragging about being proficient with it. All grouped with the same people. I guess it's fun to say "but you're just being selfish" or "you don't care about other players", but I stay in the guild I'm in, and run with the people I run with specifically because I do care about them. Even when I was on my little hiatus, I would log in every once in a while to gossip. It's how I knew a certain situation had been dealt with, and why I re-upped my VIP. I don't regret that, got to have some fun with the guild for a while w/out having to worry about whether or not I could run most things, since "Free to VIP".

I've got nothing but family and friends on my Face Book page, about 1/3 of the friends are from other MMOs I've played over the last 15 years or so. Something about that just rings as off from your assessment of my character. That's fine. I'm not posting on the forums looking for friends. I'm looking to stop things that I see as detrimental to the game, as a whole, not just to the top x% that's concerned about performance in R10, or afraid that they may hurt someone's feelings by actually contributing to the completion of quests. I have no desire to go back to ranged toons not being welcome in parties because they are perceived as not being able to contribute, according to that top x%. This update is a big step backwards from where we are back towards that very thing. You see, I see the attitude of "we're 'balancing' for endgame" falling a bit flat when one of the skills on the table is granted for free at level 4. Unless I missed something really drastic over the last year, 4 is not endgame. That is, however, where the nerfs start affecting ranged players. That you're ok with that is fine, but I'm not.

[DRoark]

At high reaper levels monsters ranged attacks hit for like 200~300 while their melee attacks hit for 3000~5000+, it's not even a comparison. Mid to high reaper is ruled by ranged precisely because they can use that 10,000 AC that the distance between them and the target provides to defend against those crazy melee hits.

This, by the way, is a good example of fertillizer. The ranged mobs in R-10 were shooting the squishies in the back for 1-2k a pop, and the melee
was hitting the tank for an average of 500-1k a pop. We did the Sharn chain R-10, and not ONCE did I see a 3-5k melee hit.

The rogue DID get flash-fried. Can he borrow your mythical +10,000 AC? Oh, wait... that's SPELL damage. Nevermind, I thought you'd be useful.

When the Producer himself, says that Inquisitor is the problem, you really think the players hadn't figured that out before he did?
Like it or not, IPS had nothing to do with it. If you made a Palladin (yeah), dual-wielding Greatswords, guess what the Meta
would be next week? Some dumb Palladin, dual-wielding Greatswords. Shocker.