Lh thth

[entropyspinner]

It has been a while since I've read a thread so full of elitism and insults that stayed alive this long.

I don't recall ever seeing any of us Casuals tell the Elitists they need to "get out" or that they don't belong here. Nor then should we have to tolerate such from them.

...<redacted>

Adding to name calling and finger pointing as anyone who takes the game seriously and strives to improve upon past failures as elitists, doesn't help the situation.

As some have tried to point out along the way, there ARE difficulty settings for a reason.

This thread is telling us there is a population of dedicated players craving reward by meritocracy rather than simply having it handed to them.

Falling back to a "there's 12 other difficulties that can be played" type response is a copout. This poorly thought out mechanic does little to add to gameplay other than mostly throw more mobs at you with more HP and more lag. There's a reason a lvl 1 player in Korthos is unable to hop into a level 32 raid and not get a completion. Or perhaps we should rethink that as well.

If those crying here about not being to get a completion, spent half that time looking into how to best beat down a raid boss, I'm convinced they would likely have a had a completion, and not need SSG to dumb down content further. Suddenly their other 99+% of content is not good enough.

[scut207]

Adding to name calling and finger pointing as anyone who takes the game seriously and strives to improve upon past failures as elitists, doesn't help the situation.



This thread is telling us there is a population of dedicated players craving reward by meritocracy rather than simply having it handed to them.

Falling back to a "there's 12 other difficulties that can be played" type response is a copout. This poorly thought out mechanic does little to add to gameplay other than mostly throw more mobs at you with more HP and more lag. There's a reason a lvl 1 player in Korthos is unable to hop into a level 32 raid and not get a completion. Or perhaps we should rethink that as well.

If those crying here about not being to get a completion, spent half that time looking into how to best beat down a raid boss, I'm convinced they would likely have a had a completion, and not need SSG to dumb down content further. Suddenly their other 99+% of content is not good enough.

I just don't get the mindset of people who are complaining that they cant ez-mode, week 1, a major release in a game that's had 4 major releases in 12+ years.

[Mindos]

I've been reading all the feedback about this raid, and I'm thinking of making the following changes (as if I had the power):

1. Raid is easier to complete on normal. This is already done.
2. Raid is a special tier Raid, and will no longer follow the usual rune drop rate progression. Drop rates of both loot and runes will be greatly reduced on normal.
3. Puzzle levers will now be random as to which crystal they control on hard and elite.

After listening to everyone's point of view, I have come to the following conclusions:

1. People like being the few with this raids loot.
2. People like being the few who can complete this raid, let alone on higher difficulties.
3. People want to just experience the raid, without regard to loot.
4. People have already tired of the raid, and have all loot/runes they could want already.

I think the above changes retain the pride of the best players DDO has to offer, while also allowing all players the chance to experience all the content that DDO has available. Breaking with tradition, and greatly increasing the number of raid completions for these new tier of raids from roughly 20 normals, to a much higher number will retain the rarity of special loot and encourage the best of the best to complete on higher levels. Adding variety to the lever mechanics will require more attention as well.

Personaly, I think DDO must offer differing challenges to different power levels of players. It seems we've gotten into this contested discussion not because some are better then others, but rather, across all levels of play, there quite frankly are too few of each. While the elite power gamer may see the casual player as a piker riding on his coattails, the casual very likely is lamenting not that he cannot do the raid with the elite, but rather that he cannot do the raid with his fellow casual players because there are not enough of them available. For example, while the high end raiding scene on most servers is very well defined, as most players know each other and their alts, the number of players at the more casual level of play have trouble grouping, let alone finding 12 players of the same caliber to enjoy a fun (albeit most likely doomed) outing in the latest raid.

I submit to you, gentle readers, that the casual player does NOT want to group with a more powerful player. Indeed, I believe the casual player would enjoy a hearty loss at THTH, much more then a carry thru. Can you imagine how much fun it would be, to group with players who have about the same gear, some few named pieces, maybe some crafted, and, AS A GROUP, try to tackle this raid? I bet they would have a blast! Learning together, failing together, improving together.

But in the end, I think the power gamers WANT more challenge, and they DO NOT want their accolades taken away, or diluted. Making normal easier for the casual, so they may experience and learn, while greatly dropping the drop rates, and conversly making the grind for named items in future higher tier raids longer, answers BOTH group's complaints. I want the loot to be sought after, and I want the reward for harder play to be meaningful, meaning worth the time invested instead of just grinding normal. I want all players a chance to have fun, and I realize fun is defined differently for different people, and sometimes what's fun changes for a group over time. I'd like to see the casual players get the named loot they want after roughly a year or so, when the next raid or level of loot is released. Conversely, I don't want the power players getting bored and fully looted after only one month, but rather 3 to 6 months or so. (refering to these new tiers of raids only)

Oh and one final thing I've learned: Casual + Power = Drama

[Quikster]

I just don't get the mindset of people who are complaining that they cant ez-mode, week 1, a major release in a game that's had 4 major releases in 12+ years.

Not how I read the thread at all. I read it as this:

Server specific post: woot. Completed hard.
Various questions about post from people not on server.
Dev post talking about amount of completions/difficulty of said completions, and servers of said completions.
People start whining the raid is getting nerfed.
A few who have multiple completions agreeing with stated nerf.
One who hasn’t been able to sniff the raid cuz nobody will accept them in their groups
Bunch of posts piling on the dirty casuals.
Back and forth between last 3 types of posters.

Nowhere did I read a bunch of people ask for ezmode one week after release. I believe the thread started earlier this week which would make it multiple weeks since release. And I see nobody asking for easy mode.

[scut207]

Not how I read the thread at all. I read it as this:

Server specific post: woot. Completed hard.
Various questions about post from people not on server.
Dev post talking about amount of completions/difficulty of said completions, and servers of said completions.
People start whining the raid is getting nerfed.
A few who have multiple completions agreeing with stated nerf.
One who hasn’t been able to sniff the raid cuz nobody will accept them in their groups
Bunch of posts piling on the dirty casuals.
Back and forth between last 3 types of posters.

Nowhere did I read a bunch of people ask for ezmode one week after release. I believe the thread started earlier this week which would make it multiple weeks since release. And I see nobody asking for easy mode.

I get what you are saying, my point was someone, not going to try to find the post to name the name, said:

I paid for the game, I am a long term VIP, I want to see the content I paid for and it should be able to be completed by a PUG.

My counter argument is that we, in my somewhat not so humble opinion, should be 3-4 months from completing all the content in a pack released a month ago. Now that may go into a deeper argument about game design and what not.

**** I remember when it took a year+ for some servers to complete released content in WoW/EQ. Those games had millions of subscribers.

I care about the game, I like this game a lot, I want it to grow. I think it has a really cool design where none of the Raids or Quests take longer than 40 min with a minor exception here or there. This allows us the older crowd that couldn't keep up in those other titles where a raid was a solid 3hrs to keep up with the content.

I think the short raids and being able to make solid character progress in under an hour is the sweet spot for the crowd of players that are willing to pony up for this game.

I honestly think raids that are difficult that cannot be completed by characters that dont have 5-6 BiS gear from the raid preceding it are good things for this game even if it means I wont see it.

[entropyspinner]

My counter argument is that we, in my somewhat not so humble opinion, should be 3-4 months from completing all the content in a pack released a month ago. Now that may go into a deeper argument about game design and what not.

**** I remember when it took a year+ for some servers to complete released content in WoW/EQ. Those games had millions of subscribers.

This!

Being able to complete the Sharn saga day one on R10 Legendary, without anyone in group having played it beforehand, troubles me for the longevity of this game. This is why I am so disappointed in the raid nerf. The supposed pinnacle of the most challenging of all content.

[scut207]

If they made a server where upon character creation you got racial, heroic and epic completionist out of the gate, all content hard set to normal, who would play on that server and keep their VIP sub?

No one would.

They would come back for a month to face-roll new content in a week, once every 2 years to reminisce about how hard it was 9 years ago and disappear again.

gotta make that carrot.

[Quikster]

I get what you are saying, my point was someone, not going to try to find the post to name the name, said:

I paid for the game, I am a long term VIP, I want to see the content I paid for and it should be able to be completed by a PUG.

My counter argument is that we, in my somewhat not so humble opinion, should be 3-4 months from completing all the content in a pack released a month ago. Now that may go into a deeper argument about game design and what not.

**** I remember when it took a year+ for some servers to complete released content in WoW/EQ. Those games had millions of subscribers.

I care about the game, I like this game a lot, I want it to grow. I think it has a really cool design where none of the Raids or Quests take longer than 40 min with a minor exception here or there. This allows us the older crowd that couldn't keep up in those other titles where a raid was a solid 3hrs to keep up with the content.

I think the short raids and being able to make solid character progress in under an hour is the sweet spot for the crowd of players that are willing to pony up for this game.

I honestly think raids that are difficult that cannot be completed by characters that dont have 5-6 BiS gear from the raid preceding it are good things for this game even if it means I wont see it.

I got no problem with SSG putting out more difficult content so long as it is advertised as such. This wasn’t. Also, I think the wow/eq comparison is apples/oranges. DDO has never been that popular, and has always had a different Schlick than 3 hour long raids.

[scut207]

I got no problem with SSG putting out more difficult content so long as it is advertised as such. This wasn’t. Also, I think the wow/eq comparison is apples/oranges. DDO has never been that popular, and has always had a different Schlick than 3 hour long raids.

I think I explained that I dont think designing 3hr raids should be a goal. Far from it.

WoW and EQ dumbed down the content so anyone could do it. Bled accounts like crazy for doing so. Its not a business model that should be followed.

[Shadow_Jumper]

I got no problem with SSG putting out more difficult content so long as it is advertised as such. This wasn’t. Also, I think the wow/eq comparison is apples/oranges. DDO has never been that popular, and has always had a different Schlick than 3 hour long raids.

They advertised a raid. Usually that means a difficult quest that requires teamwork, tactics, and skill to complete. That’s why they give you 12 players instead of 6.

The sad fact is that most people assume raids means Tempest Spine where they can solo it, and it’s an ez completion.

I hope the next raid is so hard that it’s not completable for 3+ months.

[Quikster]

I think I explained that I dont think designing 3hr raids should be a goal. Far from it.

WoW and EQ dumbed down the content so anyone could do it. Bled accounts like crazy for doing so. Its not a business model that should be followed.

I don’t think you need to worry about that. This game had its account bleed years ago.

[Quikster]

They advertised a raid. Usually that means a difficult quest that requires teamwork, tactics, and skill to complete. That’s why they give you 12 players instead of 6.

The sad fact is that most people assume raids means Tempest Spine where they can solo it, and it’s an ez completion.

I hope the next raid is so hard that it’s not completable for 3+ months.

I don’t think people expect a raid that can be solo’d. I do think people would like a raid where 2k hp builds aren’t one shot routinely on normal.

[Cordovan]

It's literally a cake walk now. Like an absolute 9-minute joke.

Thanks for completely ruining the "hardest" raid in the game by caving into pressure from players who have absolutely no interest in bettering their characters to meet a challenge. Now everybody has easy access to the best gear in the game without a shred of work. Naked characters? No problem. Absolutely no strategy? Step right up. We had something good. No longer.

Also, please demote the raid to a Tier 2 raid. It has absolutely no place being in a class of its own any longer.

Sincerely, the raiding community.

This post obviously concerned me when I read it recently, and our intention is certainly not to make the raid that easy. I have been keeping an eye on completion rate data, and so far it appears the recent changes have only led to a small bump in higher-difficulty completions. I do recognize that the completion statements made in the forums are not 100% equal to the reported number of Hard completions below, so it could be a matter of reporting delay, but we also want to make sure the numbers are being reported accurately. This data is from the past 12-ish hours:



Since we never normally give these numbers, we'll keep the number of Normal completions to ourselves other than to say it is being completed pretty regularly. We'd love to see some harder difficulty completions! It's quite unusual to see these numbers, not even sure when the last time this was.

[Sinetic]

This post obviously concerned me when I read it recently, and our intention is certainly not to make the raid that easy. I have been keeping an eye on completion rate data, and so far it appears the recent changes have only led to a small bump in higher-difficulty completions. I do recognize that the completion statements made in the forums are not 100% equal to the reported number of Hard completions below, so it could be a matter of reporting delay, but we also want to make sure the numbers are being reported accurately. This data is from the past 12-ish hours:



Since we never normally give these numbers, we'll keep the number of Normal completions to ourselves other than to say it is being completed pretty regularly. We'd love to see some harder difficulty completions! It's quite unusual to see these numbers, not even sure when the last time this was.

Hey Cordo, just for clarification purposes... Are those completions only WITHIN the last 12 hours of game time or are those the total number of completions both post and pre raid nerf?

[kain741]

This data is from the past 12-ish hours:

For understanding purposes is this just data of completions in the last 12ish hours or is this completions before 12ish hours ago...meaning all completions before 12 hours ago to include pre nerf?

[Clemeit]

This data is from the past 12-ish hours:

Appreciate the transparency.

we'll keep the number of Normal completions to ourselves other than to say it is being completed pretty regularly

But this is probably what many people are most curious about.

[Cordovan]

For understanding purposes is this just data of completions in the last 12ish hours or is this completions before 12ish hours ago...meaning all completions before 12 hours ago to include pre nerf?

Total completions (by group, so one raid group is one completion) since the raid opened with Update 42.

[kain741]

Total completions (by group, so one raid group is one completion) since the raid opened with Update 42.

thank you

[rfachini]

Thanks, Cordovan. I appreciate that you have made the raid easier. I have tried a few times when it first came out, and failed. Since the changes, I have not been able to get any joiners on LFMs, nor have I found a PUG LFM group to join. I'm just looking for at least one completion on normal (it's the only quest I haven't done yet). I'm fine with keeping higher difficulties challenging.

[Arkat]

Lava Divers completed 2 LH 2H2H raids last night. That makes 3 total LH completions on Khyber.

Lava Divers is going to attempt an R1 completion on Saturday (tomorrow).