Falconry: Praise and Complaint

[Chacka_DDO]

My understanding is this: The backend requires any attack to either be ranged or melee. There is no middle ground where an attack button can be clicked and the game can gracefully detect which type of weapon you are wielding and then makes an attack with the appropriate style.

To avoid this restriction we can use the spellcasting system and make what visually appears to be a weapon esque strike (think fan of knives from Vistani) but that makes the damage completely detached from your weapon and any effects that impact your weapon attacks.

The point is, the desire for a single button that allows you to attack with your bird regardless of weapon style, would be cool, but is not currently supported by the backend core combat systems of DDO.

I assumed already that the task to have one button for all weapon types is a bit more complicated for you but never the less the best solution.

But like many say it here already (incl. me) to get both attacks, melee and ranged would be also a solution and certainly not hard to do for you.

And another option, if you dont like to give a character both attacks (personally I see not a big balance issue) is if you would give a third option that only starts the bird attack without any weapon use and requirements.

[LightBear]

My understanding is this: The backend requires any attack to either be ranged or melee. There is no middle ground where an attack button can be clicked and the game can gracefully detect which type of weapon you are wielding and then makes an attack with the appropriate style.

To avoid this restriction we can use the spellcasting system and make what visually appears to be a weapon esque strike (think fan of knives from Vistani) but that makes the damage completely detached from your weapon and any effects that impact your weapon attacks.

The point is, the desire for a single button that allows you to attack with your bird regardless of weapon style, would be cool, but is not currently supported by the backend core combat systems of DDO.

This one reaction lifts the veil of how big the gab is between dev lingo and user lingo, pritty much the size of Barringer and with the same impact.

[edgarallanpoe]

But like many say it here already (incl. me) to get both attacks, melee and ranged would be also a solution and certainly not hard to do for you.

Unless you actually work for SSG how in the world would you know what is or what is not hard for them to do?

[Wakkander]

Unless you actually work for SSG how in the world would you know what is or what is not hard for them to do?

This.

There is a whole lot of assumptions from armchair developers following Coco's comment without any actual understanding of how the code is actually set up. It may seem like a simple thing to do, but that doesn't mean it actually is.

[askrj1]

Unless you actually work for SSG how in the world would you know what is or what is not hard for them to do?

This.

There is a whole lot of assumptions from armchair developers following Coco's comment without any actual understanding of how the code is actually set up. It may seem like a simple thing to do, but that doesn't mean it actually is.

Coco was commenting they are unlikely to be able to create the attack to autodetect melee/ranged based on weapon. What we are suggesting, and currently exists, is we have enhancements that currently grant both melee and ranged versions as separate clickies.

Of course we have no idea what the backend is like, but I would not imagine it to be something extremely out of their way to change consider what some existing enhancements currently do. I'd still be completely convinced if they do come around to say it will be a complicated change, but until then I believe this "armchair assumption" to be fair.

[Chacka_DDO]

Unless you actually work for SSG how in the world would you know what is or what is not hard for them to do?

That's pure logic, you have two working enhancements, and all you have to do is giving both to a character for the same price.
And to be honest, to create code that detects what weapon you actually use in your main hand (melee or ranged) and use the right attack by giving the same command sounds also not like rocket since magic to me... but this is certainly more difficult to do.

[Xgya]

Small question: Would it be possible to add a runearm-esque function to the bird attacks then? Charge up with a visible indicator on screen, then let fly without interfering with normal attacks? That'd be pretty awesome. Every "charge" in that concept would be a new tier of bird attacks, unlocked as usual.

I'd do a poll to see if many think like I do, but making it deactivate runearm charging wouldn't interfere with any build I'm currently thinking about.

I don't know how the runearm infrastructure underneath calculates maximum charge and passive charge tiers either, so those might interfere, but I still like the idea very much. I know activating a bird strike puts the others on a cooldown, so this would make sense.

I could do very well with just "spells" with no cooldown or animation beyond the bird's attack though.

[Chai]

Unless you actually work for SSG how in the world would you know what is or what is not hard for them to do?

I see this question asked alot on forums, and the answer is experience in the industry.

This question never gets asked of those who constantly shoot suggestions down with copy pastes of completely unrelated dev posts from years ago, and only ever gets asked of those who suggest this should be "easy" but are assumed to only be speaking from a user perspective without fully knowing the user or what perspective they may or may not have.

I beg of you to ask this same question of those who claim:
Spaghetti code
Massive undertaking
time it takes should be devoted to other things
etc...

...posted by players, are somehow a rebuttal to any suggestion they do not want implemented, but have no real answer for why it shouldnt be.

[Chai]

This.

There is a whole lot of assumptions from armchair developers following Coco's comment without any actual understanding of how the code is actually set up. It may seem like a simple thing to do, but that doesn't mean it actually is.

It also doesnt mean it takes multiple sprints to refactor code to be more efficient.

Set it up more like finger of death. This is what Coco was hinting at when saying they could use the spell casting tech rather than the weapon tech. Sure, the damage gets disassociated from weapon type, but since its the bird attacking anyhow, that fine. There are other special abilities that activate as spells.

[edgarallanpoe]

I see this question asked alot on forums, and the answer is experience in the industry.

With all due respect, that is complete rubbish unless you are talking about experience with the actual DDO code. I actually do have some experience in software development and anyone who does, knows that assumption is the mother of all f-ups.

[Chai]

With all due respect, that is complete rubbish unless you are talking about experience with the actual DDO code.

I actually do have some experience in software development and anyone who does, knows that assumption is the mother of all f-ups.

And you just made an assumption.

[jskinner937]

Read the description of the attack guys. This clicky attack is basically a double attack. Your character does a +W attack which is why there is a melee and ranged version just like any other clicks attack. There is also a bird attack which does a trio/assasinate/blind/etc which is the same regardless of which version you take. It’s not messed up and WAI. I think people are just confused about the attack itself.

[jskinner937]

FalconDivingAttack.png Diving Attack: You and your Hunting Bird attack as one against a single target.

Activate this ability to attack for +1/2/3[W] against a single target. Your Hunting bird will follow up for an additional 3d6/6d6/10d6 damage that scales with 200% of melee or ranged power, whichever is higher.

Your Hunting Bird also trips the target, causing them to become Helpless. Your target is slowed by 30% for 10 seconds whether they make the saving throw or not. Trip DC: 10 + Character Level + Wisdom modifier + Assassinate bonuses. Cooldown 20 seconds, with a 4.5 second shared cooldown with other Hunting Bird attacks. Choose one: Diving Shot (Ranged Falconer Attack) or Diving Strike (Melee Falconer Attack).

[Chacka_DDO]

Read the description of the attack guys. This clicky attack is basically a double attack. Your character does a +W attack which is why there is a melee and ranged version just like any other clicks attack. There is also a bird attack which does a trio/assassinate/blind/etc which is the same regardless of which version you take. It’s not messed up and WAI. I think people are just confused about the attack itself.

Yes, we are well aware that you do an attack with your weapon with additional +W and your bird does also a very small extra amount of damage plus an additional effect like a trip.
The point is why doesn't at least attack your bird when you e.g. have the melee version and click the command?
Like as if your bird tells you: sorry master I cannot follow your command because you have the wrong weapon in your hand.
Makes not much sense to me...

Personally, I see no significant balance issue if you would have only one button that fully supports ranged and melee attacks but this seems to be difficult to implement...
But to give both attacks for the same price would be also an option.
Or a third version that doesn't do a weapon check and attack at all and just only let your bird do the attack.
Another option would be if you have the wrong weapon equipped you doing no weapon attack but your bird still does his attack.

I dont know if this is that hard to understand but in DDO builds are possible who are able to have decent ranged and melee weapon attacks.
One example is Rangers who get even auto guaranteed feats for both melee and ranged attacks (but they usually specialize on one kind of damage anyhow)
Or sometimes you are forced to do ranged attacks even with a melee build who does garbage damage with ranged weapons e.g. in Zawabi's Revenge at the start.
This should be at least technically supported as long as it makes sense, this means no additional hot buttons, etc. if any possible.
And even less the need to change a weapon back and forth in order to make your bird attack.

[askrj1]

Read the description of the attack guys. This clicky attack is basically a double attack. Your character does a +W attack which is why there is a melee and ranged version just like any other clicks attack. There is also a bird attack which does a trio/assasinate/blind/etc which is the same regardless of which version you take. It’s not messed up and WAI. I think people are just confused about the attack itself.

I don't think anyone is confused about the attack. There are now very specific melee and ranged versions of it, of which you can only pick one. What some of us are suggesting is just let us use the bird regardless of whether of what we were holding, for example let my tempest hit the ranged version with a bow before I close in or when targetting some unreachable targets, which currently is not possible if I had selected the melee version.

What (I think) Coco said was it would be a PITA to code something that works for both ranged and melee by weapon detection. What some of us suggested was for the attack to just grant both melee and ranged versions like some other enhancements are already doing, and we could choose to use the one appropriate to our current weapon. The point is, the tree should be about me working with my trained bird companion, and it shouldn't suddenly not know how to perform its attack just because I changed from a maul to a throwing axe.