Devs: Is there any hope for Avatar of Nature in the future?

[Kylstrem]

I have enjoyed playing a "Tree Build" (Avatar of Nature) for the last 2 or 3 years. It was a very fun and rewarding build. It took quite a bit of game knowledge, twitch/keyboard/mouse skill, and gear to play correctly.

Not many people were playing this build and only about half actually knew what they were doing with it.

However, the recent changes to add the animations for cleave, great cleave, trip, sunder, whirlwind attack, etc. have truly made it where there is absolutely NO reason for anyone to "transform into a tree".

Builds to be proficient while in tree form (i.e. you had to have a Spirit "generator" class in the build... cleric, wizard, warlock) means that outside of tree form, you were definitely in a very sub-optimal build.

However, with the recent changes, my 12 fighter, 5 monk, 3 wizard actually does more DPS outside of "tree mode" than it does while in tree mode, and there is really no benefit at all now to build spirit and transform into tree.

In fact, even if I could stay in Tree build forever at the biggest SIZE of the tree (i.e. most damage), I would still do more DPS with that 12Fighter, 5Monk, 3Wiz "gimp" build.

There was some mention that you couldn't do everything you wanted with AON at this point... I find it discouraging that instead of waiting until you could fix it correctly, you took what appeared to be heavy-handed/brute-force philosophy of "We are just going to break this because we don't have the time/resources to even begin to understand how this actually works." Sorry, not trying to be insulting, but this is the perception that your change is being received as. And since none of the current tree changes were ever on Lammania and you haven't discussed it since the release, you aren't fostering any goodwill about the change.

I definitely understand that the build was taking advantage of previous oversights from the design/dev team, so before the piling on starts from other forum members about "Taking advantage of exploits gets you what you deserved", understand that I know that. What I'm asking is that we have some hope of the tree at least being viable in the future, because as it currently stands, there is absolutely no reason to even use this "epic moment" in the Primal Avatar destiny.

[Boeregard-Sarlona]

I have enjoyed playing a "Tree Build" (Avatar of Nature) for the last 2 or 3 years. It was a very fun and rewarding build. It took quite a bit of game knowledge, twitch/keyboard/mouse skill, and gear to play correctly.

Not many people were playing this build and only about half actually knew what they were doing with it.

However, the recent changes to add the animations for cleave, great cleave, trip, sunder, whirlwind attack, etc. have truly made it where there is absolutely NO reason for anyone to "transform into a tree".

Builds to be proficient while in tree form (i.e. you had to have a Spirit "generator" class in the build... cleric, wizard, warlock) means that outside of tree form, you were definitely in a very sub-optimal build.

However, with the recent changes, my 12 fighter, 5 monk, 3 wizard actually does more DPS outside of "tree mode" than it does while in tree mode, and there is really no benefit at all now to build spirit and transform into tree.

In fact, even if I could stay in Tree build forever at the biggest SIZE of the tree (i.e. most damage), I would still do more DPS with that 12Fighter, 5Monk, 3Wiz "gimp" build.

There was some mention that you couldn't do everything you wanted with AON at this point... I find it discouraging that instead of waiting until you could fix it correctly, you took what appeared to be heavy-handed/brute-force philosophy of "We are just going to break this because we don't have the time/resources to even begin to understand how this actually works." Sorry, not trying to be insulting, but this is the perception that your change is being received as. And since none of the current tree changes were ever on Lammania and you haven't discussed it since the release, you aren't fostering any goodwill about the change.

I definitely understand that the build was taking advantage of previous oversights from the design/dev team, so before the piling on starts from other forum members about "Taking advantage of exploits gets you what you deserved", understand that I know that. What I'm asking is that we have some hope of the tree at least being viable in the future, because as it currently stands, there is absolutely no reason to even use this "epic moment" in the Primal Avatar destiny.

This post is exactly what I am feeling right now. I have been playing trees for 3+ years. Gearing/Perfecting. I finally just got my main back up to 20 since the update and I am really sad with the changes to the animation in tree form. The dps is just plain bad. Can we please get another re-work on this because it is BROKEN. We are going to see even fewer people in Primal Avatar than there were before the update, even with the Melee Power boost in the cores.

[Teargiver]

Sunday afternoon, 2pm pacific and there are 10 characters with at least 1 level of druid on Thelanis, 12 characters with at least 1 lvl FVS, 15 characters with at least 1 cleric, and 21 with at least 1 bard. Their are far to many of the other classes to count. These are consistent numbers, but there is no point in beating the drum with them. All knowing devs spent all that time "fixing" druid so no one would play it. Once again, all knowing devs went about nerfing fun and making the game less than it had been. Or was this the intent all along? Making druid so useless and boring that it is the least played class now? Least played AFTER an update to fix them with 100's of people all chiming in, 100's of people that never played the class all trying to tell other people how to have fun.

Failure is an option at SSG, unless of course the point was to make a class boring, weak, and unfun, in which case this update was major success! Wolves are neutered, bears are only played for flavor or in heroic levels, and trees have less future in SSG's version of dungeon and dragons than they do in real world amazon where they are getting mowed down like toothpicks.

So yeah, the real result of druid update was making a class the least popular and taking variety out of game. What will game be like if it lasts 5 more years? Everything nerfed to death, fun sought out and destroyed utterly? The entire game just constant tr treadmill by fighters with a spoon that have 1 option to attack, the whack button? I wish I was kidding, but more and more players leave because devs are destroying fun. Who still playing the game does not look at a friends list that is mostly full of players that quit because of nerfs? How many new players are starting DDO to see the miserable treadmill they have to do just to "catch up"?

Seriously, alot of people play games because they like their characters. They like a play style, they like options they have, and one of strongest things keeping people with a game is their characters. It does not matter how wonderful a game is, if players do not like what they have available to play the game they will move on. Even a blind man can see that DDO's problems rely solely on nerfs that have sucked the fun out of the game, on years of taking away things players like until the point players themselves say, "screw this" and move on to other games.

STOP TAKING FROM PLAYERS BECAUSE FORUM MONKEYS CRY THAT OTHERS ARE NOT PLAYING THE GAME RIGHT. START GIVING TO PLAYERS. GIVE TO PLAYERS. GIVE TO PLAYERS.

It is so simple, even a brain dead baffoon should be able to understand this.... Devs TAKE from players constantly, this is bad... If things are unbalanced then GIVE to others. You are coding things, you dont actually have to give players some tangible thing that costs you profit. You are giving happiness to players, or that should be your goal. Instead you TAKE from players, act holier than tho, and tell them to be happy. No wonder the game is dying and any real player who logs on will agree that friends lists are full of people that have quit because of some nerf and that new players are rarer than raid drops.

[Discpsycho]

I'm not really sure what inspired this rant, but I see more druids these days on Argo than I did before the changes. Last time I ran a druid life, I was largely ineffective. This time, though I was intending to go bear, I can't steer clear of wolf in heroic because it's too **** useful.

I hope I'm not alone in saying I fail to understand how this was a nerf. More SLAs for casters, some awesome new abilities for wolf (free ghost touch, cc before level 17), a tangible benefit to having your pet out, and an entirely new enhancement line that supports bear form and provides a bit of passive defensive bonus for wolves.

I admit that there was a minor nerf...if you discount the fact that the TWF/SWF/SM wolf build was exploiting a bug. It's been known for years that those weren't WAI.

There's been some druid-specific (or at least druid-supportive) gear of late. The Disciples of Rage armor and shield are perfect for bear form and there's separate set for caster druids. The only possible argument I can see on the gear front is that Bloodrage Chrism breaks Druidic Oath and uncenters monks, which is fine IMO because I hear lots of people complaining about the non-efficacy of Barbarians and Paladins at endgame.

Finally, there's been plenty of power creep in this game in general. The latest "round" of nerfs was to Henshin cores' MP, and given Shintao Monks are rocking endgame as-is, I think it was pretty justified.

Sincerely,
A crying forum monkey

[Hobgoblin]

I'm not really sure what inspired this rant, but I see more druids these days on Argo than I did before the changes. Last time I ran a druid life, I was largely ineffective. This time, though I was intending to go bear, I can't steer clear of wolf in heroic because it's too **** useful.

I hope I'm not alone in saying I fail to understand how this was a nerf. More SLAs for casters, some awesome new abilities for wolf (free ghost touch, cc before level 17), a tangible benefit to having your pet out, and an entirely new enhancement line that supports bear form and provides a bit of passive defensive bonus for wolves.

I admit that there was a minor nerf...if you discount the fact that the TWF/SWF/SM wolf build was exploiting a bug. It's been known for years that those weren't WAI.

There's been some druid-specific (or at least druid-supportive) gear of late. The Disciples of Rage armor and shield are perfect for bear form and there's separate set for caster druids. The only possible argument I can see on the gear front is that Bloodrage Chrism breaks Druidic Oath and uncenters monks, which is fine IMO because I hear lots of people complaining about the non-efficacy of Barbarians and Paladins at endgame.

Finally, there's been plenty of power creep in this game in general. The latest "round" of nerfs was to Henshin cores' MP, and given Shintao Monks are rocking endgame as-is, I think it was pretty justified.

Sincerely,
A crying forum monkey

it was not druids per say that got nerfed

it was the primal avatar destiny

it went from using cleaves to rip through mobs like paper to now being covered in amber and taking forever to swing.

it was all done at the same time

[blerkington]

I agree this needs more work, either by itself or as part of an ED pass to address bugged, non-functional and less than useful ED abilities.

Right now PA is a destiny that seems pretty only useful to give fate points and for twists. I don't remember seeing a tree build since shortly after the changes and there are players on my server who really enjoyed playing them but no longer do because it became so terrible.

Thanks.

[Vish]

Trees are dead
Warpriest is dead
Ek is dead

Long live the bird man!
Squawk

[edrein]

Trees are dead
Warpriest is dead
Ek is dead

Long live the bird man!
Squawk

I want to be upset with you for that; but it's such an apt description of U39 it hurts. +1 lol...

[Teargiver]

Trees are dead
Warpriest is dead
Ek is dead

Long live the bird man!
Squawk

Kill 3 things to make 1 new shiny, players love shinies and get happy! 3 updates later kill the shiny, devs hate happy players...

[FuryFlash]

I have enjoyed playing a "Tree Build" (Avatar of Nature) for the last 2 or 3 years. It was a very fun and rewarding build. It took quite a bit of game knowledge, twitch/keyboard/mouse skill, and gear to play correctly.

Not many people were playing this build and only about half actually knew what they were doing with it.

However, the recent changes to add the animations for cleave, great cleave, trip, sunder, whirlwind attack, etc. have truly made it where there is absolutely NO reason for anyone to "transform into a tree".

Builds to be proficient while in tree form (i.e. you had to have a Spirit "generator" class in the build... cleric, wizard, warlock) means that outside of tree form, you were definitely in a very sub-optimal build.

However, with the recent changes, my 12 fighter, 5 monk, 3 wizard actually does more DPS outside of "tree mode" than it does while in tree mode, and there is really no benefit at all now to build spirit and transform into tree.

In fact, even if I could stay in Tree build forever at the biggest SIZE of the tree (i.e. most damage), I would still do more DPS with that 12Fighter, 5Monk, 3Wiz "gimp" build.

There was some mention that you couldn't do everything you wanted with AON at this point... I find it discouraging that instead of waiting until you could fix it correctly, you took what appeared to be heavy-handed/brute-force philosophy of "We are just going to break this because we don't have the time/resources to even begin to understand how this actually works." Sorry, not trying to be insulting, but this is the perception that your change is being received as. And since none of the current tree changes were ever on Lammania and you haven't discussed it since the release, you aren't fostering any goodwill about the change.

I definitely understand that the build was taking advantage of previous oversights from the design/dev team, so before the piling on starts from other forum members about "Taking advantage of exploits gets you what you deserved", understand that I know that. What I'm asking is that we have some hope of the tree at least being viable in the future, because as it currently stands, there is absolutely no reason to even use this "epic moment" in the Primal Avatar destiny.

Exactly how I felt when they nerfed unarmed-uncentered attack speed - it made my unarmed barbarian build unplayable for the style I had built him for (which also required significant twitchy skills). Nerfs like this that target minority builds are not helpful nor appreciated, instead reducing build customization options and frustrating players who have spent time perfecting these builds. The sad part is, these builds are almost never near the top of the DPS chain anyways - it's more of an attempt to make an weaker combat style "work" (at least in my experience).

I agree with the part about exploits (although the unarmed combat style I didn't even know was an exploit until they nerfed it), and I also agree that if they are going to fix these exploits (which already seem like strange priorities), then they should replace the nerfed abilities with otherwise useful stuff that doesn't rely on exploits to make it work.

[Teargiver]

Exactly how I felt when they nerfed unarmed-uncentered attack speed - it made my unarmed barbarian build unplayable for the style I had built him for (which also required significant twitchy skills). Nerfs like this that target minority builds are not helpful nor appreciated, instead reducing build customization options and frustrating players who have spent time perfecting these builds. The sad part is, these builds are almost never near the top of the DPS chain anyways - it's more of an attempt to make an weaker combat style "work" (at least in my experience).

Exactly! Why the work to nerf a minority of players that actually add flair to the game. I love to see people running around with weird builds that work. I also bet that this build you had played differently too. The style of wolf I used to have played differently, which is what I enjoyed. I did not care about weapon damage, I just cared about effects. Damage was set to wolf so I looked at weapons purely for effects. I know trees played differently also. Devs have systematically killed all variety in the way characters play and more importantly, felt when you played them. And you if don't know what I mean by how a build feels when playing it, you spend to much time on forum and not enough in game. Each time the game is nerfed it loses players and the things that made it great. DDO is about coming up with unique builds, builds with tremendous synergies. Alot of the nerfs that took place would be under powered now with the power creep of game, but instead the nerf bat was used and players left.

I guess my bitterness comes from this simple fact, I actually played the game alot. Anyone that has played knows that their friends list are full of people that quit and if they are honest the number 1 reason people quit is because nerfs. Devs take way more than they give. A nerf is taking from customers. Devs should give, and give alot. It is just code, it does not cut into profit to give players anything. Do that to balance instead of nerfing. And seriously, most of these nerfs occured because devs listen to forum warriors who are ranting about a minority player base that is not "having fun the right way". I mean seriously, I don't care how other people play. Why on earth should anyone else? People whine about trees because? Whine about wolf form? Whine about fury archers or whatever else? I mean honestly, Devs are nerfing the creativity of the player base and also how they chose to have fun. Wolves should have been fixed, but should have been fixed in way that made attack speed their thing. All about attack speed, crits, and weapon effects. Not overwhelming damage in any 1 hit. That is how they were played before and it was unique. Bears needed serious help... But the help bears should have received should have been something entirely new and unique, not just variance of what already exists. They are bears after all, playing them should be different. And I never played a tree, but I sure did enjoy knowing they were in the game and it never once occured to me to come on forum and cry "that tree is not having fun the correct way".

Seriously, players should play their own toons and not worry about others. Devs should shop taking away variety, stop limiting creativity, and should embrace diversity of play in game. Also they need to get rid of the notion of taking from players and start giving more. Like I said, it costs absolutely nothing to give because it is just programming. Try giving more and maybe peoples friends list wont be 80% full of people who quit because of stupid nerfs.

[Archaos]

Exactly! Why the work to nerf a minority of players that actually add flair to the game. I love to see people running around with weird builds that work. I also bet that this build you had played differently too. The style of wolf I used to have played differently, which is what I enjoyed. I did not care about weapon damage, I just cared about effects. Damage was set to wolf so I looked at weapons purely for effects. I know trees played differently also. Devs have systematically killed all variety in the way characters play and more importantly, felt when you played them. And you if don't know what I mean by how a build feels when playing it, you spend to much time on forum and not enough in game. Each time the game is nerfed it loses players and the things that made it great. DDO is about coming up with unique builds, builds with tremendous synergies. Alot of the nerfs that took place would be under powered now with the power creep of game, but instead the nerf bat was used and players left.

I guess my bitterness comes from this simple fact, I actually played the game alot. Anyone that has played knows that their friends list are full of people that quit and if they are honest the number 1 reason people quit is because nerfs. Devs take way more than they give. A nerf is taking from customers. Devs should give, and give alot. It is just code, it does not cut into profit to give players anything. Do that to balance instead of nerfing. And seriously, most of these nerfs occured because devs listen to forum warriors who are ranting about a minority player base that is not "having fun the right way". I mean seriously, I don't care how other people play. Why on earth should anyone else? People whine about trees because? Whine about wolf form? Whine about fury archers or whatever else? I mean honestly, Devs are nerfing the creativity of the player base and also how they chose to have fun. Wolves should have been fixed, but should have been fixed in way that made attack speed their thing. All about attack speed, crits, and weapon effects. Not overwhelming damage in any 1 hit. That is how they were played before and it was unique. Bears needed serious help... But the help bears should have received should have been something entirely new and unique, not just variance of what already exists. They are bears after all, playing them should be different. And I never played a tree, but I sure did enjoy knowing they were in the game and it never once occured to me to come on forum and cry "that tree is not having fun the correct way".

Seriously, players should play their own toons and not worry about others. Devs should shop taking away variety, stop limiting creativity, and should embrace diversity of play in game. Also they need to get rid of the notion of taking from players and start giving more. Like I said, it costs absolutely nothing to give because it is just programming. Try giving more and maybe peoples friends list wont be 80% full of people who quit because of stupid nerfs.

+1

Flavor adds variety, and is a GOOD THING for the game.

The flavor of tree-form is precisely AoE damage, and the cleaves (while unintentionally bugged) suited that perfectly. Its not like other animal-forms could have used to "bugged" mechanic effectively due to the feat cost. The non-animation cleaves gave it very high AoE damage, but single target it was still way below other builds. Despite the cleaves' non-animation being unintentional, it was a bug that actually made AoN competitive and have a distinct role.

AoN should have been nerfed, but instead they killed it. By removing the bug and not increasing the damage profile or attack speed to compensate, its a useless epic moment now. It would be more sensible to give back cleaves to AoN, but reduce base damage appropriately.

Of course there are other forms of attacks that can abuse the in-form-non-animation-attacks bug, and these should be considered or removed depending on balance testing. But the current changes to the cleaves in AoN have killed it. Another flavor lost.

[Teargiver]

+1

Flavor adds variety, and is a GOOD THING for the game.

The flavor of tree-form is precisely AoE damage, and the cleaves (while unintentionally bugged) suited that perfectly. Its not like other animal-forms could have used to "bugged" mechanic effectively due to the feat cost. The non-animation cleaves gave it very high AoE damage, but single target it was still way below other builds. Despite the cleaves' non-animation being unintentional, it was a bug that actually made AoN competitive and have a distinct role.

AoN should have been nerfed, but instead they killed it. By removing the bug and not increasing the damage profile or attack speed to compensate, its a useless epic moment now. It would be more sensible to give back cleaves to AoN, but reduce base damage appropriately.

Of course there are other forms of attacks that can abuse the in-form-non-animation-attacks bug, and these should be considered or removed depending on balance testing. But the current changes to the cleaves in AoN have killed it. Another flavor lost.

DDO doesn't feel like DDO anylonger. It feels like WoW with advent of Reaper. Reaper should have been something to give variety to the hamster wheel past live train, that is it. It should never have been allowed to be actual end game. It involved a level of power creep that is entirely new and turns DDO into something else entirely. But now the damage is done, you will never convince those players who benefit from Reaper that Reaper is not actually DDO, they have tasted the power creep and like it. Just like drinking the Kool aid. And adding more HP to already bloated fat WoW type Reaper is just crazy, reduce the healing debuff and that should help to get things back in line.

And after playing through 20 or so TR's this past year I can say with authority that alot of classes feel exactly the same. Divine plays really close to Arcane now, all melee feels generic AF to play. If this is what SSG's inane quest for balance has brought then I totally understand why players have left the game in percentages I have not seen since I started playing (2010).

I don't ***** at game because I hate it. I ***** at game became I want it to succeed. DDO should never try and be balanced at the expense of fun but devs go after classes with the nerf bat and vile hatred the way marines go after taliban. It is crazy that devs alienate players over "Balance" in a game like DDO where there is absolutely no competition except for the fragile egos of some players. And lets be honest, this culture of righteous nerfing comes from the crusading of the forum, "those players are not having fun the right way".

There is NO VALID LOGICAL ARGUEMENT for balancing DDO being more important to the game than fun, variety, and uniqueness. DDO is great because it is DDO and not inflated like WoW or just generic eye flourish like Diable style.

OH and lastly, if you reply to this and tell me to explain what DDO feels like, just check yourself. If you do not know what had made DDO great for the past decade then you have spent way to much time on forums. And also, yes balance is good and important. It just should not be more important than fun, uniqueness, and variety. It used to be applauded that players found some synergy, this was the goal of character making back in the day. Now if you find synergy you keep it quiet, sharing only with closest friends that still play and have not quit because if certain players find out they will cry about how its not fair and then devs will kill it.

[Saekee]

Trees are dead
Warpriest is dead
Ek is dead

Long live the bird man!
Squawk

you forgot pale masters

edit: sorry for derail

[Teargiver]

you forgot pale masters

+1

Why did Pale Masters have to get nerfed? I cant even remember why they got nerfed anymore. I do remember whining on forums for years tho about pale masters, "Those people play their characters in ways we dont like, make them go away!". At least back then Arcane could be shiradi or dc, which felt entirely different that playing divine. Now playing any caster feels like playing a watered down version of warlock.

What about the bow? What was so horrible and unbalanced about bows and arrows that devs had to act to save the integrity of DDO by making throwing stars and knives out perform bows and arrows?

Making Eberron great again by making it uniformly vanilla, room temperature oatmeal!

BTW, I actually do still like DDO in a way and I do recognize the improvements SSG has made, improvements I had read were impossible to make. I applaud SSG in alot of ways, I just do not understand their desire to seek balance at cost of alienating customers a ton of customers, my server (and friendslist) is deserted since SSG implemented Reaper. Reaper is NOT DDO at all. Losing trees, pale masters, wolves, warpriests, EK, and bows makes DDO smaller and more mundane. Okay, wolves might not be dead but they are not all that unique anymore. Alot of players never understood obsession to balance everything, balance and competitiveness is NOT DDO at all, competitiveness in DDO is entirely player created and negative to the overall experience.

And I am tired of reading "everything is fine". Anyone saying game is fine does not actually log on. Aside from 2 servers, population density is down considerably. Instead of striving for room temperature vanilla game play, why not develop fun and unique things into classes. And if you cant think of what anything fun and unique might be, look at the history of DDO. Tons of unique and creative things have been nerfed out of existance.