Melee is bad?

[BCalicore2]

Hey --

I just came back after like.. a 6 year hiatus. I was thinking about doing some melee but I hear that endgame that melee is terrible.. Am I wasting my time?

[Xgya]

Endgame melee is very strong DPS, but it's also a lot more work.
Ranged was always safer, but now that the damage has ramped up so much, playing it safe from a distance is pretty much the only easy solution left.

[Enoach]

The trick is finding the balance of..

1. Defense (AC, PRR, Dodge, Concealment, incorporeal etc.)
2. Offence (DPS both single target and AoE)

That works for your playstyle.

This is complicated by the fact of needing to pick the right class(es), feats, enhancements, epic destiny/twists and gear as well as understanding when to "stick-n-move" again for how you play.

If you are looking for a character that does not require lots of "activity" then melee will be disappointing.

[AbyssalMage]

Endgame melee is very strong DPS, but it's also a lot more work.
Ranged was always safer, but now that the damage has ramped up so much, playing it safe from a distance is pretty much the only easy solution left.

Basically this ^.

NPC's put out so much damage and they come in "clusters" that you have to be able to survive the initial 3 to 5 seconds of insane damage. It's possible to survive, as I have witnessed it, but requires the top gear and player knowledge (mostly knowing which Champions/Reapers take priority).

[Kaboom2112]

Most players are bad.

Melees require more skill the perform well than some other builds.

so to bad players, melees are bad.

If you're a good player you'll be fine. If not grab a repeater

[Mandelia]

High level melee takes an advanced knowledge of CC techniques that work against crowns and reapers. Reaper 6+ melee takes an advanced knowledge of having a token thrower to pretend you are helping from the safe spots everyone has mapped.

[BCalicore2]

So that sounds a lot like its not very n00b friendly -- I guess i'll try some ranged

[Qhualor]

I suppose it depends on your idea of endgame. if you are talking elite and below running quests and raids than melee is fine and lies more under the skill of the player than anything else. from what I hear, mid to high Reaper can be tough for melees. I don't play it so I wouldn't know for sure what it's like, but I've seen a few say it's fine if the group works together. you have to take the rumors with a grain of salt around here. it's best to see for yourself instead of relying on what others have to say to influence your decisions on what and how to play. I only play melees and I only play on elite and below and, other than specific bugs, some things need to be reduced or raised in power, melees are not even close to bad. chances are you are hearing "melees are bad" because certain builds like ranged can fight from a distance and certain builds are just faster at killing and progressing through quests. for some reason some think that is what makes classes good or bad.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Bad? Not necessarily.

Generally less effective than casters? Usually yes.

A mediocre caster is going to be a lot better than a mediocre melee character.

A very good melee character in the hands of a good player can do things that a good caster can't do. But that good caster will still be very effective even though it is missing a couple of tricks that the very good melee character has.

Casters are at the top of the heap at the moment.

[SpartanKiller13]

Hey --

I just came back after like.. a 6 year hiatus. I was thinking about doing some melee but I hear that endgame that melee is terrible.. Am I wasting my time?

The trick is finding the balance of..

1. Defense (AC, PRR, Dodge, Concealment, incorporeal etc.)
2. Offence (DPS both single target and AoE)

That works for your playstyle.

This is complicated by the fact of needing to pick the right class(es), feats, enhancements, epic destiny/twists and gear as well as understanding when to "stick-n-move" again for how you play.

If you are looking for a character that does not require lots of "activity" then melee will be disappointing.

I literally built my current character around having Displacement on a melee. Warlock ES T5 gets Displacement, which is super good. Although after running it I find that the Shining Through was the real winner, but I figured Brilliance and Displacement would be the best. After that, Pally 15 for Holy Sword + Zeal + Defender stance and I'm done.

You have to think a bit more to build something, find a few features that will make you survivable.

I suppose it depends on your idea of endgame. if you are talking elite and below running quests and raids than melee is fine and lies more under the skill of the player than anything else. from what I hear, mid to high Reaper can be tough for melees. I don't play it so I wouldn't know for sure what it's like, but I've seen a few say it's fine if the group works together. you have to take the rumors with a grain of salt around here. it's best to see for yourself instead of relying on what others have to say to influence your decisions on what and how to play. I only play melees and I only play on elite and below and, other than specific bugs, some things need to be reduced or raised in power, melees are not even close to bad. chances are you are hearing "melees are bad" because certain builds like ranged can fight from a distance and certain builds are just faster at killing and progressing through quests. for some reason some think that is what makes classes good or bad.

To me the big divide is heroic vs epic. My current character can solo Heroic R3 as a melee (only rarely taking actual HP damage thanks to temps), but EE even in a party is a bit of a slog. Obviously depends on the quest etc, but that's where I'm at.

I love melee, so I play it and choose the quest difficulty to match my capability.

-----

If you're just in heroics, I'd say melee is easier than ever. Power creep is constant, and I literally used a ML 6-8 set from when I equipped it until level 24. For weapons, I went from ML2 to ML10 to ML 22. You don't need a ton, just a bit here and there.

[Whitering]

Slarden's pale master/fighter performs just fine soloing up to R2 in almost all quests, but some are really hard and if they are light casting mobs, forget it. Axel's battle cleric is also fine R1 and R2 solo. Now, everyone wants to do higher...well, that requires kiting, so for higher reaper, it's pretty hard unless you have a great healer and super high tank stats.

Since I mostly solo, no, they are not dead, I am in Tilo's tree build right now, can solo R1 and R2 easily, could probably step it up, but I am still missing a lot of power from Epic past lives and such. But it's a bit annoying running after archers, not a huge deal since you one shot them, but when there are lots of ranged units flying around it can be tough.

Think of Von 4 that room with the mobs up on the bridge, can't do anything about those as melee, just run through to the Elementals, locks can put on cone or chain and wipe them out in 1 or 2 shots.

[glmfw1]

Pure Kensei Dual-Wielding Fighter, using Legendary Dreadnaught Tree, in a mixed group can do well in EE/LE. Lots of button pushing, even after selecting target with Auto-attack on - special attacks +Action boosts deliver a lot of extra damage.
Decent AC, Concealment, Dodge mean you don't get hit too often. Decent PRR means things hurt less. Decent Healing Amp/Pos Spellpower mean incoming healing heals more.

I suspect the people who think melee is "bad" want to see themselves topping the kill counts and are in groups with instakill and DPS casters, and either get beaten by instakill & DPS casters if they are melee or are playing instakill/DPS casters and see much higher kill counts for the casters than for the melees. Any group should be able to look at who is in the group and plan tactics accordingly, but many anecdotes of "melee suck" revolve around tactics free attacks, where fastest is often "best".

[Vish]

Hey --

I just came back after like.. a 6 year hiatus. I was thinking about doing some melee but I hear that endgame that melee is terrible.. Am I wasting my time?

Melee endgame is fine,
It's just over reaper5 that it drops off

If you're returning, run EE or less, and you be good

[Symbiont]

Melee is both ends of the pendulum; the skill gap in terms of playing melee is the widest of any category. An truly and completely optimized melee player, with every single intricacy honed to nothing short of perfection will obliterate everything, far more effectively than any other role - with defensive attributes that allow your character to be the recipient of multiple enemy strikes in the highest possible difficulty (Reaper, 10 skulls). In the right hands, with the necessary gear and resources, melee is actually arguably the best possible thing to roll. However, it is the most difficult to play, and the sheer amount of required attention to every individual stat makes gearing far more complicated; being in the front-line means that you must focus accordingly into defense to survive - and as a DPS role, there must be a simultaneous investment into the damage you deal in the midst of combat. For someone just returning to the game, or even someone that lacks extensive gear - I would not recommend melee. However, the sky is literally the limit in the potential of a melee; as you'd smash mobs at least that high when you swing.

[Ellihor]

If you asked this one year ago I'd say yes without blinking. I was very active in lobbing to help melees in those days. I just recently uploaded a video of february 2017 and you can see how melee clearly sucked, while caster was very strong and ranged was basically the way to go dps.

But things changed, the game changed. But people think they didn't, their mind didn't catch up to what happened. Now melee is in a very good position and are competitive at endgame, and do significantly more damage than ranged to make them worth, while the defenses are better than one year ago. And compared to casters, the improvement is ever greater: while one year ago it was really hard for melee to compete with casters, now they're closer because the damage escalated a lot, specially helpless, and the HP of the enemies and caster cooldowns are the same.

When you see people saying this kind of things, is because they didn't catch up with the times. Melee are fine today. But I agree with someone here who said they require more skill, while ranged require less. But if you have that, the reward is worth it.

[Ellihor]

A mediocre caster is going to be a lot better than a mediocre melee character.

A very good melee character in the hands of a good player can do things that a good caster can't do. But that good caster will still be very effective even though it is missing a couple of tricks that the very good melee character has.

Casters are at the top of the heap at the moment.

It's totally the opposite. Mediocre casters at endgame can't do anything and are close to useless, while mediocre melee can be useful if the support is good.

The second part also is opposite. A good caster can do things melee can't do. He can can be the difference between a smooth or not run, while a good melee, well, he can't have that effect no matter what. Imho caster at endgame is the playstyle that scales mostly with player skill. In my experience the number one factor determining how smooth a run will be is how good is the caster, then the tank, then the healer (not putting they in the "caster" category because by this I mean the role of healing, in opposition to the role of dealing with the mobs with spells), and last the dps. That is because the first 3 are the support, and DPS are the "doers", they're what is being supported.

[blerkington]

Melee works well even in upper skull runs, but I'm not sure that would be the best place to start as a new player or someone returning after a long break. So bear in mind how accurate the advice you're getting in this thread is depends on quest difficulty.

The people who have the most trouble with melee are those who don't have a good feel for how survivable their character is and don't think about aggro. On lower difficulties charging first into groups of monsters works fine, in higher difficulties with slower kill times, higher incoming damage and worse self healing, it may well get you killed. So observe how aggro is allocated when your group attacks, and use whatever CC your group has to maximum advantage. You have to modify the way you play based on circumstance, not expect the same approach to work all the time.

If you are the sort of person who thinks about aggro and uses it to keep yourself safe, bear in mind there's been an AI change in the last little while that is very significant for melees. That is, if monsters are aggro'd on someone they can't reach, their aggro may switch to you very quickly if you start attacking them, even if the person with aggro has done a fair bit of damage already.

Thanks.

[lyrecono]

Hey --

I just came back after like.. a 6 year hiatus. I was thinking about doing some melee but I hear that endgame that melee is terrible.. Am I wasting my time?

It depends on;
Your definition of endgame, tr-ing or sitting at cap.
Your prefered dificulty.
Your ability to get into a community that runs the same content at the same time you do.
Ect.

Currently, lots of people are farming racial lives and reaper exp/gear so it's easy to hop into those kinds of groups, meaning you need to be ready for reaper, wich for a player that has been away for 6 years, ranged will serve you better.
You could play a melee but think of it as a rogue, don't rush in, let the caster CC everything first.

So, on reaper 6+
Don't play a melee class that depends heavily on gear andd past lives to shine.
At least for now, don't bother with barbarian, builds that try to CC or face tanking.
Don't go for a monk splash, as they used to be popular back in the day.
A platemail wearing kensai in defencive stance is a 105 prr and a 55 mrr ahead of cloth wearing melees. It is doubtfull that you have the gear to boost your reflex for evasion or the means to mitigate incomming melee damage.

More important is, talk to people in party, ask of them what they expect of a melee, how they stay alive and do dps, group mechanics became more important since the introduction of reaper mode. Let people know you recently returned to the game so they can adjust their expectations. They can also help by passing gear.

Honnestly, i would suggest picking up a few racial past lives (or even better, all 33) and get used to the game again and meet new people through the lfm.
In epics, the tr vets have a habbit of hideing behind channels.

Don't listen to the people who say, you'll be fine on EE, they are so used to reaper whille benefitting from all their gear and past lives that they no longer can imagine how weak their toons were 6 years ago, compared to now. The devs went overboard with the dificulty to the point where they had to introduce prr and mrr, something you'll be lacking atm.
They also introduced champions(mobs with random buffs like diablo 2) that, on EE, will severly damage you when you're lacking the gear to mitigate the damage.

So yes, melee is a lot less friendly to new and returning players. Try a supporting role untill you get the hang of things again.

[goodspeed]

High level melee takes an advanced knowledge of CC techniques that work against crowns and reapers. Reaper 6+ melee takes an advanced knowledge of having a token thrower to pretend you are helping from the safe spots everyone has mapped.

lol right? Yep im whipping this old lv 8 throwing knife I use to hit door openers at the crystals in legendary shroud.

[Niminae]

The trick is finding the balance of..

1. Defense (AC, PRR, Dodge, Concealment, incorporeal etc.)
2. Offence (DPS both single target and AoE)

That works for your playstyle.

And that works for the level of play where you intend to run.

If you're going to be running on Normal then melees are just fine. Any class is just fine on Normal. If you want to run on difficulty levels where the mobs hit like trucks then you need to consider how to not be hit by that truck. Or how to mitigate the damage when you do get hit by that truck, since no defense is perfect. Also having other players in your group to assist you in recovering from being hit by that truck is a good thing at those levels of play.