Melee is bad?

[Chai]

Well I guess I'll have to say it again...

BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS
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nerf
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Chai - "Hey guys...why can't you see nerfing isn't working?"

Repetition of the same fallacy where you put words I didnt say into my mouth doesnt make it true. This is only needed due to lack of refutation of what I actually did say.

Anyone with one iota of understanding of my position knows I have been asking for horizontal progression for years.

Me disagreeing with you about the the implementation of nerfs is not me trying to make this discussion personal.

But the thing is youre not disagreeing with me. Ive been asking for horizontal progression for years. You claim to hate power creep (balancing with buffs). What happens when you remove power creep? A horizontal progression system emerges.

The sheer level of try-harding and last-wording to disagree still leaves us believing some past conversation is being "avenged" here. So we tested you on this bias. You agreed with the exact same post word for word when one of our associates posted it under their name. Then vehemently disagreed with it, mocked and derided it, when it was posted as Chai. Exact same post, word for word. We do this when someone is trying so hard to disagree they talk past the 98% of the part of the quoted post they agree with in order to berate and belittle the 2% of the post they disagree with.

Not interested in having that kind of discussion. When we see this level of bias, we test to confirm, to be absolutely sure, then move on.

And when the Chai posts devolve into this its because he realizes he has lost the debate.

Might be on the losing side. Sure aint the wrong one however.

[Kaboom2112]

So nerf monks more? Got it.

[Kaboom2112]

Well I guess I'll have to say it again...

BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS
BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS
BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS
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nerf
BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS
BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS
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Chai - "Hey guys...why can't you see nerfing isn't working?"

Just as funny the second time

[Chai]

So nerf monks more? Got it.

Enjoy playing with the two other people left? Got it.

[Forzah]

Repetition of the same fallacy where you put words I didnt say into my mouth doesnt make it true. This is only needed due to lack of refutation of what I actually did say.

I'd say it quite accurately represents where your argument falls short.

Anyone with one iota of understanding of my position knows I have been asking for horizontal progression for years.

But the thing is youre not disagreeing with me. Ive been asking for horizontal progression for years. You claim to hate power creep (balancing with buffs). What happens when you remove power creep? A horizontal progression system emerges.

While maybe that is not the intention, you are doing exactly the opposite by constantly defending the companies vertical progression policy. You'd make a much stronger point if you just focus on horizontal progression alone and what would be needed for that, rather then riling against people asking for nerfs and blaming them for things they aren't responsible for.

The sheer level of try-harding and last-wording to disagree still leaves us believing some past conversation is being "avenged" here. So we tested you on this bias. You agreed with the exact same post word for word when one of our associates posted it under their name. Then vehemently disagreed with it, mocked and derided it, when it was posted as Chai. Exact same post, word for word. We do this when someone is trying so hard to disagree they talk past the 98% of the part of the quoted post they agree with in order to berate and belittle the 2% of the post they disagree with.

Not interested in having that kind of discussion. When we see this level of bias, we test to confirm, to be absolutely sure, then move on.

You now accuse others of exactly the things you are doing yourself (try-harding, last-wording, personal attacks, bringing in past disagreements).

Might be on the losing side. Sure aint the wrong one however.

Definitely on the losing side, most likely also wrong.

[zehnvhex]

You now accuse others of exactly the things you are doing yourself (try-harding, last-wording, personal attacks, bringing in past disagreements).

You forgot arguing semantics.

Anyways....

An important fact to remember is that Blizzard, with a much more sophisticated API and 10000x as many players giving them billions of hours and some of the best game programmers on the planet in a much simpler environment still can't balance ranged vs. melee. And WoW is a competitive game to a small degree where those sorts of things actually matter.

It's an impossible to solve problem.

In DDO all we can really hope for is not balance, but playability. They should focus less on "Is this balanced " and instead gun for "Is this fun?"

That would be my issue with melee. If I have my enablers then it's good fun. However, if I'm lacking any of those tools I can still do it, but it becomes tedious and unfun.

At the core this is a grouping issue. If I'm playing with other people who are on the same skill level as me with relatively the same power level of my character it's a lot of fun to play DDO. However, grouping sucks so hard and there's so many barriers to it that it's rarely possible to do. I don't have this issue in WoW. I don't have to worry about people having first run bonuses, not owning content, not being in the level range for BB, not knowing where a quest is, not being able to get there in time, etc...

I just push a button and 1~5 minutes later I'm in a dungeon with some other people ready to crush content. In DDO it's like filing your taxes every day.

If they made grouping less obnoxious and actually supported it, the complaints would rapidly diminish. We'd still have the occasional gripe about AE builds getting all the kills, but those people are easy to ignore.

[Chai]

While maybe that is not the intention, you are doing exactly the opposite by constantly defending the companies vertical progression policy.

Incorrect.

Anyone with one iota of understanding of my position knows I have been asking for horizontal progression for years.

Those who repeatedly iterate the "money versus time" argument are those who defended the company's vertical progression policy. How are they going to sell you faster tracks to more character power, without massive vertical progression?

Definitely on the losing side, most likely also wrong.

On the losing side, but only due to the company implementing what I am against. Lets us know how that turns out in a 18 months or so. Got my money on monks being in the same place in that meta as barbarians and paladins are in this one. It might even be far less than 18 months as casters are now up for their passes.

Not on the wrong side. All of the things I have stipulated would happen due to the company implementing the big elephant in the middle of the room, have happened. What the "money versus time" argument won through volume and disruption tactics, it lost through logic for anyone who is into system balance / stable meta / build diversity.

At one point, there was a time where there was some doubt - that people were actually missing the pattern or not understanding the pattern. That point is passed. We have been 100% convinced over the past 18 months or so that everyone (the usual suspects) who advocate for this stuff understand the negative impact of what they are advocating, and now have to resort to talking past and dismissing it, invoking the "its too late to turn back now" mentality. Any claim of objectivity is lost when not being willing to analyze previous examples, and continue to advocate for the same thing as if the same result will not occur.

[Kaboom2112]

Enjoy playing with the two other people left? Got it.

If it means they're not monk cheerleaders, I'm okay with that

[Chai]

If it means they're not monk cheerleaders, I'm okay with that

Whatever it takes to stop the warlock hyperbole I guess. They didnt even nerf any of the things you claimed were OP about the class, and now, not a peep. All they had to do was give monks a two handed damage mod.

[Kaboom2112]

Whatever it takes to stop the warlock hyperbole I guess. They didnt even nerf any of the things you claimed were OP about the class, and now, not a peep. All they had to do was give monks a two handed damage mod.

I think I need a bigger picture of Chewbacca.

[chrysahor]

Bad
Does not need balancing for having those abilities while being competitive dps wise with class with far less abilities




This is my DC based monk. Alt with very few past lives (Monk2, pally 1 and ranger 1). No fighter for DC, and obviously not completionist. 1 iconic, no racial.
28 reaper, spread in all 3 trees (+2 easy DC to grab, +1 at T5 dread). Ofc course high reaper capable with hardcore CC (jade line has the same DC's as kukan-do).

Ofc this come from shintao abilities: higher than average hamp, self raise no need worry about DR so I can keep duality on all the time.
Running with GMoF, I adjusted MP while leveling to get the U38 feel.

[Chai]

I think I need a bigger picture of Chewbacca.

Naaa, he just needs to be wearing handwraps. You can tape that poster over the one where he's shooting eldritch blasts from his fingertips.

[Kaboom2112]

Naaa, he just needs to be wearing handwraps. You can tape that poster over the one where he's shooting eldritch blasts from his fingertips.

I wish I had the photoshop skills to do this

[McFlay]

But the thing is youre not disagreeing with me. Ive been asking for horizontal progression for years. You claim to hate power creep (balancing with buffs). What happens when you remove power creep? A horizontal progression system emerges.

I haven't claimed I hate power creep, and I'm not asking to stop or remove it lol. Power creep over time with me is totally fine as long as the game remains reasonably balanced. We're going to have power creep, things are going to change...all I'm saying is that as those changes occur nerfs also need to be a part of the process to keep things balanced. Its no wonder you think I'm auto quoting you just to disagree when we're apparently having a separate conversation that's only taking place in your imagination.

Sometimes old things don't scale well and need buffed, sometimes old things scale too well and need nerfed. Sometimes new things are underwhelming from launch and need buffed, sometimes new things are overkill and need nerfed. Sometimes things are just outright exploited and need fixed, and sometimes when this happens, people scream nerf. Buffs have their place, and nerfs do to.

If you don't have nerfs the only mechanism for balancing the game is buffing things. What I'm hearing from you is nerfs don't work, which leaves us with buffing as the only balancing mechanism, yet, you claim to want horizontal progression...so basically...you want something unobtainable.

[Chai]

I haven't claimed I hate power creep, and I'm not asking to stop or remove it lol. Power creep over time with me is totally fine as long as the game remains reasonably balanced. We're going to have power creep, things are going to change...all I'm saying is that as those changes occur nerfs also need to be a part of the process to keep things balanced. Its no wonder you think I'm auto quoting you just to disagree when we're apparently having a separate conversation that's only taking place in your imagination.

Sometimes old things don't scale well and need buffed, sometimes old things scale too well and need nerfed. Sometimes new things are underwhelming from launch and need buffed, sometimes new things are overkill and need nerfed. Sometimes things are just outright exploited and need fixed, and sometimes when this happens, people scream nerf. Buffs have their place, and nerfs do to.

If you don't have nerfs the only mechanism for balancing the game is buffing things. What I'm hearing from you is nerfs don't work, which leaves us with buffing as the only balancing mechanism, yet, you claim to want horizontal progression...so basically...you want something unobtainable.

Name a time after 2012 when this game was "reasonably balanced."

If you don't have nerfs the only mechanism for balancing the game is buffing things.

Vastly incorrect. This is what I was talking about before. Its right down the checklist first ballot hall of fame false dichotomy. I would go into some long lecture of how horizontal progression systems need neither of those, if I wasnt so convinced it would be quoted and glossed right over. This polarization of the discussion, and quickness to disagree with the same few posters over and over again, has caused people to talk right past what resolves this issue.

If you don't have nerfs the only mechanism for balancing the game is buffing things. What I'm hearing from you is nerfs don't work, which leaves us with buffing as the only balancing mechanism, yet, you claim to want horizontal progression...so basically...you want something unobtainable.

Also incorrect. I would cite the numerous examples of other games that use this, as well as numerous examples of how it was used in DDO in the past, if I wasnt convinced this too, would get quoted and glossed over. Not only is horizontal progression very obtainable (we used to have it in much larger degree than we do now), it wastes far less people hours than this nerf/buff see saw you are advocating here. Horizontal systems do not require anywhere near the degree of revisiting to correct issues, and even when they are off, they are off by like 5% or less in most cases, not producing builds that are multiplicitively more powerful as we see here in DDO, or abilities that are so bad they get added to the unofficial list of DO_NOT_USE abilities.

Once again, see sawing might be fun at the park, but it has no place in RPG system balance.

Horizontal progression saves more time when games do not have to use multiple updates to shoe horn in a new difficulty system which nerfs abilities upwards of 90% - but the populace isnt satisfied enough with that so they demand nerfs to the base classes in all levels due to the hilarious ideological belief that one weapon equip-able for two out of thirty of those levels turns bad builds into god mode.

This nerf agenda is not ground in reality. Pointing out the insanity of the buff agenda doesnt justify the nerf agenda. At least we know why they buff so often, and even when we dont agree with it we can understand the reasoning. Its to sell you character power. If they put a huge mountain of character power in front of you, you might buy an elevator ride up instead of taking the winding path.

[zehnvhex]

I promised myself I wouldn't because it's too easy but I've been doing so well lately that I think I should treat myself.

Name a time after 2012 when this game was "reasonably balanced."

Right now. With the obvious exception of monk at 30, the issues we're facing right now are not a balance issue but one of a lack of grouping focus in DDO. Ranged could use a bit of a buff because they don't offer much other than "Worse dps but safer" and blaster casters could use an end game identity but by and large there isn't an egregious issue with one class/build dominating the meta.

we used to have it in much larger degree than we do now

Yeah, and it was boring. The game hemorrhaged players because once you spent a few months or so farming there was literally nothing left to do. Horizontal gameplay only works if you continue to expand it and DDO has neither the mechanisms nor the interface for it.

For people who wonder what the heck 'horizontal power growth' is, look at MOBA's or CCG's. You don't necessarily get more powerful over time in a MOBA, you just get access to more stuff but you're limited by how much stuff you can carry at any given time.

What makes it work is the free access to switching it all up. In Heroes of the Storm when they release a new hero I just buy it and add it to my pool and can play it whenever. I don't need to spend 3 months farming up a whole new gearset to match the new item I got with shifted around stats, figure out where to store everything, etc...etc...

[Shadow_Jumper]

Right now. With the obvious exception of monk at 30, the issues we're facing right now are not a balance issue but one of a lack of grouping focus in DDO. Ranged could use a bit of a buff because they don't offer much other than "Worse dps but safer" and blaster casters could use an end game identity but by and large there isn't an egregious issue with one class/build dominating the meta.

You have to remember. He doesn’t think melee DPS is good right now. There’s no reason for any of us to be running them because they have lower DPS and they have to be close to the mobs which means that they take more damage. There’s literally no reason for any of us to run melee.

[Chai]

You have to remember. He doesn’t think melee DPS is good right now. There’s no reason for any of us to be running them because they have lower DPS and they have to be close to the mobs which means that they take more damage. There’s literally no reason for any of us to run melee.

This is incorrect.

Ive said all along that melee runs a much higher risk due to having to stand next to mobs to play their role. I'm not the one here who hinges their entire position on DPS comparisons.

[Chai]

Name a time after 2012 when this game was "reasonably balanced."

Right now.

[Chai]

For people who wonder what the heck 'horizontal power growth' is, look at MOBA's or CCG's. You don't necessarily get more powerful over time in a MOBA, you just get access to more stuff but you're limited by how much stuff you can carry at any given time.

What makes it work is the free access to switching it all up. In Heroes of the Storm when they release a new hero I just buy it and add it to my pool and can play it whenever. I don't need to spend 3 months farming up a whole new gearset to match the new item I got with shifted around stats, figure out where to store everything, etc...etc...

In MMOs with horizontal progression, they give you gear load outs with different stats, and you have to choose which to wear, or you can mix and match. This enforces trade offs in the most literal way possible. You can be the best DPS if you want, but you will be running a glass character with minimal, if any, defense. You can also be the best face tank in the game, but this means sacrificing all but the base level DPS. You can make a well rounded character by mixing and matching stat load outs, but you will not be maxed out in anything. Any power creep at all that enters the game only happens when new unique abilities are added, and the min maxers learn the synergies between the brand new abilities to the old abilities. This is when nerfs and buffs actually do work, but they typically only have to nerf/buff a percentage point or two, or increase/decrease a cooldown a few seconds, to bring back balance, rather than nerfing an entire class in all levels due to getting carried away when implementing a near max level weapon.

Each character might have 75 potentially useful skills, and can hotbar 10 at a time. This is yet another way of enforcing trade offs. You dont see these load outs with 400 slots surrounding the center of the screen with different switch outs for every single gear slot. Characters arent wheeling around 55 gallon drums of potions, golf bags chucked full of weapons, with a supply caravan a mile long carrying all their boot racks, glove displays, and shelving for helmets and endcaps for belts.

As stated before, the nerf that would actually be needed to balance DDO is not comprehended by most, and would cause the game to play entirely differently than it does now. In order to challenge us in a D&D setting with all this nonsense we can do with our characters, they needed to create a difficulty setting where trash mobs have 15k HP and the majority of DPS + self healing is nerfed - and this is becoming the default setting people play in. These buff+nerf see sawing sessions that continue t be advocated around these parts serve to eat up people-hours, but they dont bring the game closer to balance. Not by a long shot.