U38 Balance Changes

[Cantor]

The wraps change to twf die boost is only natural and should have come that way to start honestly. Really, it never should have made it off lama, it was obvious to everyone.

The henshin mp reduction is only natural and should have come that way to start honestly. I'm not saying staff is too strong, but this much melee power this easy is too much. They need to buff staves in another way, such as giving the weapon line damage boosts closer to kensei levels, giving boosts to the clickies, etc.

I think you could have left the heshin 18 core and capstone at 10/25, it's the dipping that's the major issue after all. Is there going to be a corresponding reduction in the shintao 18 core and capstone? or just don't change the henshin 18/cap.

[Cantor]

Why not just level the playing field and remove all melee classes except one?

Isn't that what they are trying to fix? because right now monk is dominating.

NO ONE PLAYS A HENSHIN MYSTIC QUARTERSTAFF BUILD. There is no way that a melee build that is substantially better than all other non-monk 2HF builds would have no presence on the server.

Sure there is, when you can pick up handwraps and put your staff to shame.

How were your tests on ninjas? I assume that they did ok but mainly due to the melee power from henshin. Perhaps add MP to the cores of ninjas as well as dodge (like in Thief Acrobat--a good tree that makes sense)

(sigh) my current splash just got a lot less sexy.

Will you be giving people hearts who have monk splashes? I am happy about the change--nerf is good. MOAH nerf!

I have to echo this, ninja needs a little something. Of course I know why that is too, you could tell in the mnk pass that they really wanted to make sure not to give anything to shurikens so ninja got the short stick. also, touch of death is a joke at high levels, it should scale 2x mp at least and have no DC.

Agreed good nerf, and I just TR'd my main to a wrap mnk literally yesterday... only at level 4.

[Bill_Jones]

Disappointing news for me about hand wraps.
I guess I don't play monks the right way. Every time I play one, I do very little damage and get hit for a ridiculous amount of damage.
I've used good builds on these here forums, got my dodge and PRR as high as possible and have some really good named and crafted wraps and still I get my face eaten off.
I'm not saying DOOM, but the builds I've enjoyed splashed monk and this seems fairly DOOMy. Guess I'll pull out the khopesh and splash 6 Ranger in the future.

[Qhualor]

Looks to me like bringing the top builds down some notches and moving the lower builds up some notches. A meet in the middle kind of thing. I was actually going to say something about TWF, but since I'm not a numbers guy to back it up, I wasn't sure how to have a discussion on it. Glad it's been noticed and is worked on and I don't have to start a confusing thread on the subject.

So step 1 is this.

Step 2 is eventually 2HF.

Step 3 the differences and advantages of ranged builds over other melee builds?

[Amundir]

... are planning to alter it from (10/10/10/10/10/25) to (3/3/3/3/3/15).

Noooooooooooooooo!!! Lol, dang it. I have two builds planned on splashing 3 monk levels for that tasty melee power. ****.

Oh well. So far most the changes to classes have happened just as I've TRed out of them (for whatever cosmic reason). It was bound to hit me on the frontend eventually,

[Thrudh]

The non-quarterstaves are significantly better in terms of raw DPS, crit profiles and overall usefulness of the effects and procs.

25% doublestrike makes up for a lot of that, plus the monk stances. And all that melee power (before this change) put them over the top.

Nice work devs... Looking forward to seeing your next changes after this one.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Remove Combat Expertize for a pre-req for whirlwind. AND for Improved Trip.

Those 2 feat applications need NOT to be restricted by the useless CE feat.

You want to help melees but ignore small things like this to improve how to build for a melee.

I am but one small voice, and I dont agree with all the build gurus on here. And a few of them agree with me, a few don't, but they build for the meta. I DON'T

Think of how stupid this is for a melee...........

have to have 3 offensive stances as Kensai *the master of all melees *ahem** to use Imp Trip.......

[Nickodeamous]

Hmmm...this is interesting. I have played a pure month for 15 plus epic lives. I took a break when Ravenloft came out and came back, only to discover that they basically give you hand wraps (morninglord) that put all of my other wraps to shame. I spent a ton of time getting my LGS tier 3 wraps, only to use them for the 1,000 HP boost...once that hits, back to morninglord. I have enjoyed leading kill counts on fleshies (for the first time in my 15 lives), but when it comes to undead, I am still irreverent. Most of the new content is undead...sure, I can still wreak havoc on Slavers, but that is basically obsolete now. I'd like to say my claim to fame is being able to Jade reapers in every level, so I got that going for me

Anyway, I actually don't think it will change how I play. I crunched the numbers and once I get Duality, I'll still do 20% more damage then I do with the current state of the Morninglords. Duality will still be a huge improvement over morninglord as it is today. Also, my MP will be 22 points higher if I run in GMOF with 2 cores in henshin. Current state: 24MP from GMOF +20MP from Henshin = 44. Future state: 60MP from GMOF +6MP from Henshin = 66.

although this is a nerf, it's really not that terrible. as a pure monk, I can dig it. (just sad I'll probably never see the duality in its current state...750 Runes to go!)

Nico

[Cantor]

Remove Combat Expertize for a pre-req for whirlwind. AND for Improved Trip.

Those 2 feat applications need NOT to be restricted by the useless CE feat.

Yes please.

[Vish]

Steel, you are killing me

Last year monks for president
This year impeachment

I have done extensive tests on duality and Gulthias builds
Those are my two favorite
I am usually a henshin by choice

Killing the mp in henshin cores will lower dps on a niche build
Problem is is the splash of cores
Lotta builds go monk for henshin cores
11 ap is 30 mp
Best deal in the game for melee
Now you're reducing it
Nerfing from 75 to 30!
I guess that's not too bad
The top end is 350
So 50 less is just taking away the gravy
But melee power was my attraction to monk
Kinda made up for the lame tree
And I play a henshin
Won't stop me, but it's a devastating blow
You know, I thought you guys had it wrong when u put mp into henshin
I thought it should have went to Shintao
And kept the henshin a hybrid caster type
So you killed the mystic
And now you're killing the melee

What are you balancing too?
All melee doing same dps?
Because that's what the metric sounds like
I'm just glad I got a chance to play it while it was good
Like with es warlock, and how many times you nerfed that
It's feeling like ddo is going bland, getting homogenized
And you just killed my new shuri build
For a universal tree, it needs something low hanging
Sorry but daggers is a big fail,
Flavor or not
And vkf is a waste of your time
And you're killing the best melee in the game
A melee that could actually reap over 5
I thought it was gonna be the new standard,
And bring the other melees along
But the melee power issue is to overpowering
I see
I hate it
But I hated it when you implemented it
And you guys don't seem to have a grasp on designing your own game
Or that's it's a game of give and take
And we always hang in the balance
God I hate nerfs
Shows you guys just don't get it
Or get it wrong
Nuff said,
I'll post as this gets deeper

[jakeelala]

Steelstar:

You have now pretty massively nerfed throwers for 3 or 4 consecutive updates:

-Changes to 10k
-Removal of ALL Arcane Archer abilities
-Removal of Vistani MP power applying to shuriken (NO ONE RUNS A KNIFE THROWER WHY ARE YOU STILL PRETENDING THIS IS A THING?)
-Adding MP to all Epic destinies, BUT NOT RP while simultaneously removing weapon versatility for shurikens as stated above.

Please understand there are only 2 viable Epic Destinies for a thrower (Fury or Legendary Dreadnought). If you added RP as well as MP throwers (and other ranged builds) might actually someday experience some build diversity.

I understand that SSG has for a long time now been very clearly biased toward crossbows being supreme ranged DPS at the expense of bows and shurikens (and all other thrown weapons but those have always been totally non-viable choices, and remain so). With more buffs coming to Arties, and newest round of nerfs to shuriken throwers, we will back to shuriken being closer to crossbow builds, but bows and all other thrown weapons remaining at best, a situational use case, and at worst, a niche or remain totally unused.

Please add more robust ranged DPS tests into your process. I'd be happy to help if you want it.

[Thrudh]

Remove Combat Expertize for a pre-req for whirlwind. AND for Improved Trip.

Those 2 feat applications need NOT to be restricted by the useless CE feat.

Yes please.

Think of how stupid this is for a melee...........

have to switch offensive stances as Kensai *the master of all melees *ahem** from lets say power attack to turn on CE to use Imp Trip.......

You don't have to have CE on to use Improved Trip

[CeltEireson]

Think of how stupid this is for a melee...........

have to switch offensive stances as Kensai *the master of all melees *ahem** from lets say power attack to turn on CE to use Imp Trip.......

You don't have to be in CE to use improved trip - just have to have it as a feat doesn't need to be active.

Bah Thrudh beat me to it!

[Captain_Wizbang]

You don't have to be in CE to use improved trip - just have to have it as a feat doesn't need to be active.

Bah Thrudh beat me to it!

yeah, and you both beat me before I edited it, lololol

[XAlexosauronX]

Grandmaster of flowers is a really intersting epic destiny for monks that is dead now because the DCs don't take into account combat mastery bonuses, how can I play a destiny which abilities get up to 58-70 DCs while for endgame it is required around 90-100...

[silinteresting]

Looks to me like bringing the top builds down some notches and moving the lower builds up some notches.

i got to admit ive seen some stuff that will make one of my builds stronger thankyou to the devs not that it needed it.

i am wondering what a lower build is tho ?.

your friend sil

[CeltEireson]

Grandmaster of flowers is a really intersting epic destiny for monks that is dead now because the DCs don't take into account combat mastery bonuses, how can I play a destiny which abilities get up to 58-70 DCs while for endgame it is required around 90-100...

Yup, they either need to relate it to epic level or allow for combat mastery bonuses to apply, otherwise that whole line from lily petal to a scattering of flowers and everything is nothing is useless in high epics.

Having said that - compared to Legendary Dreadnaught most 'epic moments' for other epic destinies are decidedly unepic. Blitz you can keep going the entire quest, most of the other epic moments last 20-20 seconds per rest if youre lucky.

[GramercyRiff]

The only thing I care about here is a brief mention of possibly buffing THF. I'll wait for that since I don't play Monk because the attack animation is the worst thing of all time. Looking good > being OP serious.

I like and don't like the buffs to the Destinies. On one hand, I like buffs to things rather than nerfs. On the other hand, lol Fatesinger gets more innate MP than Dreadnought.

Shadowdancer gets juicier though. It's a pretty juicy Destiny overall, it's just not as good as LD. I'm still not sure it's as good as LD, but the gap has closed.

[jakeelala]

Grandmaster of flowers is a really intersting epic destiny for monks that is dead now because the DCs don't take into account combat mastery bonuses, how can I play a destiny which abilities get up to 58-70 DCs while for endgame it is required around 90-100...

Seconded emphatically.

A lot ED's are super interesting but do not have DC's or DPS scale properly to actually ever be used for anything.

This is a horrible shame, making 50-75% of the ED's in this game basically an abandoned/orphaned game system. WHICH IS INSANE.

[CeltEireson]

As for the survivability of the monk compared to other classes - yup less PRR/MRR (although if you're in earth stance that's much less of an issue) but as well as pretty high dodge, reasonably high ac (depending on build) you can also easily get 25% incorporeality, as well as arguably 2nd best saves in the game after paladin, improved evasion, built in spell resistance that stacks and decent self healing that doesn't rely on spell points.

From the sounds of it the overall single target DPS from monk/handwraps will still be as high or a little higher than other builds just not as massively higher than it was before.

Yes, it was nice for my monk to shine for a change but the level of melee power that was available in enhancements was a little on the high side.

Having said that the devs still need to have a look at melee vs ranged.