Teach SSG a lesson

[HAL]

They do give us all of that free of charge. It just takes longer.

Are you saying that it doesn't matter if you follow the rules or not in order to get these things since you would get them one way or another anyway? If not, what is your point?

[slarden]

"The only say we really have is with our wallets (which is the point of the OP I think) and frankly I suspect most players are not exploiters and most players spend some money so it's highly unlikely that they will sink the ship with their decision. That being said, even if they do, it's their company, their rules, their choice and we can't do squat about it."

Wheesh man, some of you people need to wake up.

Your the consumer, you have all the power.

Its called money. With out money the game cannot exist, nor can this company exist with out its costumers.

I wish you people would stop support this Bull **** ancient old technique to divide and conquer, through the use of intimidation, something similar to Romans to dominate and manipulate people to conform to rules. So we will pay taxes and bend to there will for capitalism. Didn't work for them, didn't work out for Napoleon, Hitler, or the America's today, as most of you people won't realize this, till your little brains are choking for the air you breath is so toxic that you just roll over and die. Any how "All Hail SSG".

This Forums reads "Teach SSG a Lesson", not "Lets get our pointy hats on".

So many of you so single minded on the fact if you just start erasing all these people accounts and intimadate the cheaters, it well fix everything. As if you weed your garden, the next day you find more growing.

So lets slither out of your holes, and line up like your supporting another dumb ass "Trump" idea to bring Capitalism back and make America GREAT AGAIN. Throwing your little bags of coins out, while you ware your mask, so the next day you crawl back to what ever hole you came out. And just forget that there are actually REAL things you can do that can bring change. You feel the need to have your voice heard on this thread, but your really just shooting your self in the foot. Cause your support is short lived, has no presidence on the actual underlining issuse that cause you the GRIEF you think your experiencing.

Tomorrow your going to back to the broken game, the same ladder you couldn't climb up in waterworks 12 years ago well still throw you off. Game is going to freeze up, your raids wel fail, you well waste your time and money on pots, and all you did was support SSG on playing a very poor business platform of destroying what some people have worked on for over a decade. In hopes it may "fix" and solves your little peoples lives. Well good luck! not going to work......

And in all honestely you will never actually Fix anything, your still getting half of what you pay for, your still taking the short end of stick, all the meanwhile SSG reaps all the benifets of your support, well totally avoiding walking the Harder, more expensive, and actually do what needs to be done. Just to bring up another quater in sales, that are going to dump like a sack of **** if history should dictate!

You are comparing SSG's character deletion to Hitler.... Hitler.....do you not see that at some point your mind took a wrong turn on this subject?

Look I heard today of a few characters that were deleted on Sarlona and I was both shocked and saddened. One of the guild leaders and guilds I respect most that always welcomed me to their raids were hit really hard. I hope they continue to play - a bunch of great players and great people. I don't know to what extent they exploited but I hope they get their characters back and continue to play.

The sad reality is that when you exploit and gain past lifes it's probably not an easy thing for SSG to unwind which is why they took the delete option. I hope they allow people to undelete after some time assuming that's an option. While SSG is not totally blameless neither are you. I read your entire rant and bolded the thing that is really the point of your post, the rest is mostly bitterness related to the bolded part... understandable... I am sure it's hard to keep your emotions in check after losing a decade of character development.

Best of luck on your next adventure. This is your chance to prove to people that past lifes don't matter.

[slarden]

Personally I think it would be funny if the toons of the cheaters had some sort of graphic on them that let everyone know they were cheaters (say a golden hand making an L over their head). Toss in the burden of guilt effect and the ability for other players to PvP them in all public instances, with them being unable to do anything but run back and it would be a lot more effective punishment.

The mark of the cheater would last say x2 the length of the current ban with it being permanent for repeat offenders. Also it should apply to all toons on their account. Hell make it really interesting and give some XP for killing them (say 100/current level + 2k/ past life) and there's a deterrent. Sure some would wear that like a badge of honor, I say go for it .. free XP's for me.

The Scarlett Letter E

[Singular]

You are comparing SSG's character deletion to Hitler.... Hitler.....do you not see that at some point your mind took a wrong turn on this subject?

Look I heard today of a few characters that were deleted on Sarlona and I was both shocked and saddened. One of the guild leaders and guilds I respect most that always welcomed me to their raids were hit really hard. I hope they continue to play - a bunch of great players and great people. I don't know to what extent they exploited but I hope they get their characters back and continue to play.

The sad reality is that when you exploit and gain past lifes it's probably not an easy thing for SSG to unwind which is why they took the delete option. I hope they allow people to undelete after some time assuming that's an option. While SSG is not totally blameless neither are you. I read your entire rant and bolded the thing that is really the point of your post, the rest is mostly bitterness related to the bolded part... understandable... I am sure it's hard to keep your emotions in check after losing a decade of character development.

Best of luck on your next adventure. This is your chance to prove to people that past lifes don't matter.

Hitler...Hitler...name rings a bell. Something about Internet arguments always boiling down to his name...ah, yes, Godwin's law!

[HungarianRhapsody]

I dont think anyone is misunderstanding this, but they are intentionally dodging it. Theres no way this could possibly be misunderstood as the way the company makes its money by selling faster progression is not new.

I don't misunderstand your position. I just disagree with it. It is NOT like stealing because it isn't a thing being taken from someone (like stealing a car or stealing money, etc). With stealing, a person has a thing and you take it and they no longer have that thing.

It's much more like piracy where the victim of the "theft" still has the "stolen" item - but now the pirate has that item too. SSG makes its money in two ways:

1) By selling content that people can play
and
2) by selling content bypasses that allow people to avoid playing that content.

People who would never buy #2 are not depriving SSG of any revenue when they exploit because there is no revenue to be lost. If they weren't going to buy #2, then the exploiting didn't cost SSH anything at all. It's still a violation of the ToS and of the CoC, but it certainly isn't theft. Turbine still has EVERYTHING that they would have had if the exploit had not occurred.

Also, I'll note that I did not engage in this exploit. I was tempted because SSG *STILL* hasn't fixed the bug that "stole" XP from me by giving the incorrect amount of XP in ransacked optionals, but I decided not to do it (mostly because it smelled like a big honeypot to me and I expected that SSG had done something that would lead to them banning a bunch of people).


I think that SSG overreacted and that this will turn out to be a bad business decision on their part because they just banned and deleted characters of some accounts that were whales. How many of them were whales? I don't know. That's why I *think* that it will turn out to be a bad decision on their part instead of saying that I know for a fact that it was a bad decision.

Also, it's super obvious that it was someone from SSG that posted the steps to follow for the exploit on the unnamed "other forums". It's incredibly rare that anyone posts detailed step by step instructions on how to do an exploit instead of PM'ing the instructions to a few trusted friends. This exploit gets posted right on the front page of the unnamed "other forums" *RIGHT AFTER* SSG adds new tracking software that lets them detect this exact exploit? Tell me that doesn't just scream honeypot and I'll tell you to pull the other one. That's deeply unethical and just plain nasty.

As I said before - I don't have a lot of sympathy for the people who were banned this time around. I'm also disgusted by SSG's behavior here as well.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Are you saying that it doesn't matter if you follow the rules or not in order to get these things since you would get them one way or another anyway? If not, what is your point?

I'm saying that Chai is using terrible analogies and metaphors based on inaccurate comparisons and outright misstatements.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Also, I think that the decision to go from "we'll completely ignore exploits unless they're super blatant and just give people temp bans when they are super blatant" to "we're going to delete all of the characters who engaged in this exploit that we posted on the unnamed other forums" is kind of absurd.

If they hadn't posted the honeypot and had just slowly tracked who was exploiting over a month or two and then did this to the worst of the exploiters, I wouldn't be nearly as disgusted by SSG's decisions.

[slarden]

Also, I think that the decision to go from "we'll completely ignore exploits unless they're super blatant and just give people temp bans when they are super blatant" to "we're going to delete all of the characters who engaged in this exploit that we posted on the unnamed other forums" is kind of absurd.

If they hadn't posted the honeypot and had just slowly tracked who was exploiting over a month or two and then did this to the worst of the exploiters, I wouldn't be nearly as disgusted by SSG's decisions.

I kind of agree with this. I wish they had a 6 month back up they could have pulled from.

[scipiojedi]

The character has been deleted, which is equivalent to being executed.

They should load all the cheaters on Lammannia and hold a public execution of each character...one final death and soulstone for each of them

[Singular]

... SSG makes its money in two ways:

1) By selling content that people can play
and
2) by selling content bypasses that allow people to avoid playing that content.

...

Something about that model seems so wrong.

It suggests that it's in the creators' best interests to build addictive goals, but not good content.

[AzureDragonas]

Also, I think that the decision to go from "we'll completely ignore exploits unless they're super blatant and just give people temp bans when they are super blatant" to "we're going to delete all of the characters who engaged in this exploit that we posted on the unnamed other forums" is kind of absurd.

If they hadn't posted the honeypot and had just slowly tracked who was exploiting over a month or two and then did this to the worst of the exploiters, I wouldn't be nearly as disgusted by SSG's decisions.

By your logic those who already exploited and got all pl feats would be left unscratched because they are already done exploiting and just picking fruits. By all means if exploit was known and you intentionally abused it doesn't matter of what margin you deserve to get equal ban as others who abused it plainly. As long as actions wont be severe enough exploiting will continue, and next time other would think twice before abusing it instead of reporting. As player from Sarlona who didn't participate in exploiting I feel good about action and stand they took specially directed to those who were bragging about achievements they made by unfair methods.

[Algreg]

"The only say we really have is with our wallets (which is the point of the OP I think) and frankly I suspect most players are not exploiters and most players spend some money so it's highly unlikely that they will sink the ship with their decision. That being said, even if they do, it's their company, their rules, their choice and we can't do squat about it."

Wheesh man, some of you people need to wake up.

Your the consumer, you have all the power.

Its called money. With out money the game cannot exist, nor can this company exist with out its costumers.

I wish you people would stop support this Bull **** ancient old technique to divide and conquer, through the use of intimidation, something similar to Romans to dominate and manipulate people to conform to rules. So we will pay taxes and bend to there will for capitalism. Didn't work for them, didn't work out for Napoleon, Hitler, or the America's today, as most of you people won't realize this, till your little brains are choking for the air you breath is so toxic that you just roll over and die. Any how "All Hail SSG".

This Forums reads "Teach SSG a Lesson", not "Lets get our pointy hats on".

So many of you so single minded on the fact if you just start erasing all these people accounts and intimadate the cheaters, it well fix everything. As if you weed your garden, the next day you find more growing.

So lets slither out of your holes, and line up like your supporting another dumb ass "Trump" idea to bring Capitalism back and make America GREAT AGAIN. Throwing your little bags of coins out, while you ware your mask, so the next day you crawl back to what ever hole you came out. And just forget that there are actually REAL things you can do that can bring change. You feel the need to have your voice heard on this thread, but your really just shooting your self in the foot. Cause your support is short lived, has no presidence on the actual underlining issuse that cause you the GRIEF you think your experiencing.

Tomorrow your going to back to the broken game, the same ladder you couldn't climb up in waterworks 12 years ago well still throw you off. Game is going to freeze up, your raids wel fail, you well waste your time and money on pots, and all you did was support SSG on playing a very poor business platform of destroying what some people have worked on for over a decade. In hopes it may "fix" and solves your little peoples lives. Well good luck! not going to work......

And in all honestely you will never actually Fix anything, your still getting half of what you pay for, your still taking the short end of stick, all the meanwhile SSG reaps all the benifets of your support, well totally avoiding walking the Harder, more expensive, and actually do what needs to be done. Just to bring up another quater in sales, that are going to dump like a sack of **** if history should dictate!

and so the narrative shifted from confused costumer and unapologetic cheater to keyboard revolutionary. I have to say, this thread delievers. By all means, keep up the good work (gosh, I hope this is real).

[Dragavon]

and so the narrative shifted from confused costumer and unapologetic cheater to keyboard revolutionary. I have to say, this thread delievers. By all means, keep up the good work.

The amount of ******** in this thread is incredible.

Cheaters where caught red-handed, and given their just punishment according to how badly they had abused the exploit.

I just see a lot of post from spoiled little children that does not want to accept that cheating and breaking rules has consequences.

Grow up and take responsibility for your actions, stop whining.

[Forzah]

Only in the land of make believe.

DDO is indeed a fantasy game.

Again incorrect. I already outlined how it is literally stealing. Not going circular on this one.

The company still has exactly the same things they had first, so nothing was stolen. At best, the opportunity for SSG to make a sale in the future was stolen. But then I can also call growing my own vegetables stealing from the grocery store, since I deny the grocery store the opportunity to sell vegetables to me in the future. Of course, denial of possible future sales is very different from physically stealing an item as in the shoplifting analogy. As pointed out, piracy is much more accurate analogy, because it also denies possible future sales.

DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING!!!!

...Yet another incorrect analogy.

Players can forego the sale by not buying whats sold, while still not exploiting the system to get whats being sold free of charge.

LOL no...not in the eyes of the company, whose revenue generation system is being cheated and stolen from.

You just put the nail in your own argument's coffin with this one. The very reason why they design a higher amount of grind into the game is to sell you the ability to get through it faster. They did not design the higher amount of grind into the game so players could find a way to exploit the system and get faster advancement for free.

Obviously, the company doesn't like that they lose revenue like this. However, in games that do not sell faster advancement, exploits leading to faster advancement are typically more gamebreaking, since the game was not balanced around it. In that sense, exploiting is a worse crime there.

Or any factual discussion on cheating which excludes the moral part of the discussion.

Equating "forgoing a sale" to exploiting a system to steal something the company intends to sell you but does not intend to give you free of charge serves to identify an increased level of complicity.

I'm only pointing out the flaw in the analogy; there is no need to call me complicit in exploiting for that. This is a clear personal attack and, according to you, that automatically shows I'm right, so thanks for the support!

[Pyed-Pyper]

Something about that model seems so wrong.

It suggests that it's in the creators' best interests to build addictive goals, but not good content.

welcome to the hamster wheel

[Chai]

I don't misunderstand your position. I just disagree with it. It is NOT like stealing because it isn't a thing being taken from someone (like stealing a car or stealing money, etc). With stealing, a person has a thing and you take it and they no longer have that thing.

Youre right, its not LIKE stealing. It literally IS stealing.

Game sells faster character advancement.
Players exploit system in game in an obviously unintended way to gain what the game sells, but gain it free of charge.
This is straight down the checklist first ballot hall of fame stealing.

There is no rules lawyering, bantering of semantics, word smithing, or last wording, which refutes this.

It's much more like piracy where the victim of the "theft" still has the "stolen" item - but now the pirate has that item too.

Piracy is stealing.

Your statements sound like you are very aware of the laws which govern physical objects and material possessions, but are unaware of the laws which govern intellectual property.

I'm saying that Chai is using terrible analogies and metaphors based on inaccurate comparisons and outright misstatements.

Hilarious.

Which analogy is less accurate when describing exploiting? Shoplifting, or Forgoing a sale?

Youre not calling out any of the other "inaccurate analogies" (and there are plenty in this thread alone) even after claiming that when you see anything inaccurate it bothers you. Its not because the analogies are accurate. Its because you only call out what you believe t be inaccurate when you disagree. This is clear cut substitution of logic for a belief system, and in that belief system, stealing data is not theft, simply because the data wasnt removed, but copied instead.

Theres only one question that needs to still be asked at this point.

How far does complicity go with the lawyering of analogies, word smithing, and straining the pour of semantics?

[Chai]

I'm only pointing out the flaw in the analogy; there is no need to call me complicit in exploiting for that. This is a clear personal attack and, according to you, that automatically shows I'm right, so thanks for the support!

You are arguing analogies (ex: foregoing a sale, and executing a jaywalker) which word lawyer your position in favor of the exploiters by painting their actions in a light which attempts to (incorrectly) imply no negative impact or minimal negative impact of their actions.

Bolded = complicity.

Anyone can do the requisite research here, and observe your posting history showing other examples of complicity. In one such example, after being asked how banning exploiters negatively affects you, you argue that expelling people who duped timer bypass will affect you negatively as you wont get to raid with them as often, then a mere 4 posts down talk about how they hand you timer bypass, but since you werent the one who duped to get it, you are in the clear. This is about as complicit as it gets. You didnt commit the crime, but you certainly benefited from it and from those who did.

If this equal footing discussion gets uncomfortable for you, I will remind you that you had the option of refraining from quoting and replying to me which we have discussed several times in the past. You chose to challenge my position instead, and did so using analogies, and supporting other analogies, which show every favor to those who exploit (ex: they were just forgoing a sale) and which condemn the actions of the company around every corner. (ex: executing a jaywalker)

All I'm doing is pointing it out. This demonstrates complicity.

[Forzah]

You are arguing analogies (ex: foregoing a sale, and executing a jaywalker) which word lawyer your position in favor of the exploiters by painting their actions in a light which attempts to (incorrectly) imply no negative impact or minimal negative impact of their actions.

Bolded = complicity.

Incorrect. I said in this very thread that exploiters should be punished by taking away at least the progress that they made by exploiting and preferably more than that. I made the observation that taking away only the progress is already a deterrent for cheating, since it renders the time investment in exploiting worthless. I find that character removal is too draconic due to the limited availability of character names.

Anyone can do the requisite research here, and observe your posting history showing other examples of complicity. ...

Even more personal attacks and bringing in past discussions, making my point more and more correct

You chose to challenge my position instead, and did so using analogies, and supporting other analogies, which show every favor to those who exploit (ex: they were just forgoing a sale) and which condemn the actions of the company around every corner. (ex: executing a jaywalker)

All I'm doing is pointing it out. This demonstrates complicity.

Just to be clear: I think removing characters is the in-game equivalent of execution. I do not think the punishment for these exploits is equivalent to executing a jaywalker, since the severity of these exploits goes much further than a simple violation of traffic rules. I also think the exploiting is more accurately described as piracy than as stealing (though piracy is also not completely accurate, since no store items were copied; rather there was an abuse of items freely obtainable in the game being obtained more often than normally possible, which has nothing to do with whether or not similar stuff is sold in the store).

Stating my opinions about analogies and correcting them where needed has nothing to do with complicity. Then you're just seeing things that aren't there.

[Forzah]

Which analogy is less accurate when describing exploiting? Shoplifting, or Forgoing a sale?

Forgoing a sale is not an analogy, it is what actually happens when people decide not to buy store items because another alternative (exploiting) is available. However, that does not equate to those items being stolen. I don't understand why you question this: it boils down exactly to the point you are making that the company makes fewer sales. It's also one of the main reasons why the punishment is so harsh.

[Chai]

Forgoing a sale is not an analogy, it is what actually happens when people decide not to buy store items because another alternative (exploiting) is available. However, that does not equate to those items being stolen. I don't understand why you question this: it boils down exactly to the point you are making that the company makes fewer sales. It's also one of the main reasons why the punishment is so harsh.

I am not questioning it. I am refuting it outright.

Forgoing a sale is not buying whats being sold. Players can choose to not buy whats being sold, and still not cheat the system to get it free (aka stealing).

Thus what we are talking about here, is not forgoing a sale. The more you attempt to word smith this the more complicit it makes you appear (regardless if you are actually complicit or not).