Balancing Spell DCs for Reaper

[karatemack]

You can't adjust DCs to make them work well across all of the content/difficulty settings for the following reasons:

1. The range of available player power is far too wide. Imagine if all the DCs were adjusted to the MAX necro DC a player could possibly have. That would mean that players without access to EVERY PL/feat/piece of gear/Reaper Enhancement/etc. to min/max their build would fail. Even veteran players with most of the investment to build out their toon complete would not succeed in the most difficulty settings. FWIW... this is what we argued Reaper should be. I would be OK with DCs being balanced this way too if it weren't for other items in this list.

2. DC ranged vary greatly from class to class AND spell school to spell school. Compare the max necro DCs of a Wizard to those of a Cleric. Or max Enchantment DCs vs max Evocation or max Necromancy. Yes, some of the spells use a different save (fort vs will vs reflex) however there is some crossover. Which class and spell school should the DCs be balanced against?

3. The content difficulty settings make this task nearly impossible to balance on a D20... even in Reaper. This is one of the reasons we asked for Reaper to simply be Reaper without the 1-10 levels. The dev team was struggling to balance DCs across ELITE/HARD/NORMAL and yet now have an additional 10 levels to spread DCs out over. Even if you increase the save stat by 1 for each Reaper level and balance Reaper 10 against the max necro DC for a success rate of only 5%... the caster will gain an additional 5% on the roll of the d20 for every Reaper level below it. Add in the gap to ELITE and suddenly ELITE is no-fail every time for the players built to DC cast in Reaper 10.

4. As alluded to in point 3... this leaves us in a place many of us worried we would eventually wind up... the game being balanced against Reaper. If you build the DC system around ensuring effective DC casting in Reaper, then the other difficulties become trivialized. If you don't ensure people can DC cast in Reaper, then you'll see thousands of threads complaining that Reaper is melee only. Once again, the cat is out of the bag but this is why Reaper should have just been Reaper and the challenge mode impossible for everyone which we were promised.

5. Spell Penetration has the same D20 issue that DC casting has, plus... not every mob has spell resistance. See all of the above points, however, and apply them to the same issues inflated stats bring to a D20 system.

6. Old content. Not all mobs are built/balanced the same way. To really revamp spell DCs you will have to adjust mobs throughout the entire game. Probably not going to happen. I suppose you could build mobs in new quests with insane and all-but-impossible saves, but that still leaves the old content as easy DC killing fields.

7. New loot. Whenever new loot allows a DC caster additional gains to their primary casting stat or an extra +1 DC... if Reaper 10 was previously balanced to 5% with max DCs then it's now 10% with max DCs. As power creep continues to trickle into the game... those numbers will continue to rise. Eventually, we wind up in the same situation with DCs with all the previous work wasted.

So what are some possible solutions? The devs have tried many things throughout the years including:

• Immunity to insta-kills.
• Mobs with inflated stats which need to be energy drained before insta-killed.
• Divine caster mobs who cast mass death ward.

Each of these has had varying degrees of positive reception (although immunity is a lazy mechanic IMO) and have been somewhat successful. What, however, if Reaper mode simply included a behind-the-scenes roll straight up against a d20? Call it a Reaper Spell Check or whatever. The player can never boost their roll and the mobs are assigned a Reaper Spell Resistance stat of 1 - 10 (based on the level of Reaper) and whenever the player attempts to cast a non-damage spell against the mob they must roll higher than the Reaper Spell Resistance number or else the a red shield will pop up and the mob will resist the spell. At R1 you would have a 95% chance (followed by the typical spell pen and DC check) to succeed and at R10 you would have a 50% chance (followed by the typical spell pen and DC check) to succeed.

This would make the D20 relevant again and would ensure casters never reach a "no fail" point while still allowing for greater success rates for those who min/max their DC caster builds. It doesn't address the underlying problems ELITE/HARD/NORMAL had/have but... Reaper is the new normal?

[Deathlylife]

I very much agree with the points made, Reaper is supposed to be the highest difficulty setting and a challenge.

I am not trying to trivialize the difficulty faced in R10 runs (props to all who can do these), but high skull levels become significantly easier for those with reliable high DC insta-kills/CC used tactifully. The reliability takes out the challenge that reaper is supposed to be. The suggestion put forward seems an elegant one in that no matter stat or DC inflation it will be a set amount of unreliability, allowing for a challenge for many years.

[guardiankaiser]

I have thought for a while it might be time to give spell DC's the ol' Atk/AC treatment, letting characters that fall on the low end of DC's still have some chance of success above 5%. There might be a few things that need to be rebalanced after such a change.

A few effects should be Flat % chance as opposed to "value" on the curve (as we currently have with attacks)
Spell focus / Improved / Greater would give a flat +5% chance of success (each total 15%, since they represent a big investment of build, and account of 3 of 80-100 of your DC)

Great Reflex / Fort/ Will would give +10% to the save (but still no one would take them).

Many other changes might need to occur and values adjusted so it wouldn't be a light task

I suppose many people however will not like the change as we are used to building for no fail DC's and saves

[slarden]

They already ruined assassin which was the most advanced and most fun build to run. I hope they don’t ruin dc casting next. I thought they did a good job of adding enemies immune to various dc spells in ravenloft - wisps, flame skulls, flesh golems, a lot of undead. Some things have high spell resistance and some just. Not be penetrated There are some super high fort save enemies. That is on top of reapers and champs.

dc casting is a team role and we saw with gianthold what happens when they kill dc casting.

the only thing broken is charms because they don’t get the dps penalties players get so charmed enemies are the best dps in high skulls.

the easiest way to address issues is by enemy selection.

[Aelonwy]

I don't play Reaper but every time I see threads advocating for caster's to have a 95% fail chance or whatever the percentage, it aggravates me. Casters already have to build for DCs and Spell Pen and many have to work within their spell point resources. Often times as you pointed out yourself casters must debuff an enemy to have any chance of success, costing them more resources. How about MAX caster level on most heroic spells? Hey how about melees have MAX weapon levels?

Casters require more past lives to meet these requirements than melee.

Casters have to deal with enemy elemental resistances, and for some casters this may mean waiting 3 days to change their spells or buying a store item to do so.

Melee just have to manage the to-hit. You hit it you damage it, oh wait its resistant to that damage, take a second and change weapons.

So how about before you toss in a hidden die to obstruct casters we see how melee feel about spending endurance to swing their weapons (counterpart to spell points) and make them pay plat or buy store items to change their weapons?

Gets worse in epics where many casters' spells become useless and they have to spend epic feats for individual spells that are actually worth using in epics. Would melees' spend an epic feat for a single weapon worth using in epics? Or do they prefer epic feats that help them no matter what weapon they equip?

[HuneyMunster]

How about applying the same rules to both melee and ranged classes?

This includes cc such as

dire/shield charge,
stunning blow/fist/shield,
trip/improved trip,
kukan-do,
tomb of jade,
frozen/spinning ice, Slap in the Face,
sweeping strikes,
tremor,
take down,
thunder shock
lay waste

The majority of these can obtain vastly higher dc than casters can.

[karatemack]

I don't play Reaper but every time I see threads advocating for caster's to have a 95% fail chance or whatever the percentage, it aggravates me.

That isn't what I wrote. At most, on R10, casters would have (without ANY investment) a 50% chance to overcome Reaper Spell Resistance. On R1, they would (by default) have a 95% chance to overcome it (not for their spell to fail).

This is being suggested because, in the long term, the DCs will get high, the mob spell resistance will get higher... and more and more "older" content will become invalidated. Blanket immunities tied to a difficulty setting are lazy, but I should have clarified that mob immunities based on creature type are cool/welcome/whatever adjective. Undead should not be effected by Destruction because they're already dead. However, undead which have blanket IMMUNITY to turn undead because "Reaper" is stupid.

[karatemack]

How about applying the same rules to both melee and ranged classes?

This includes cc such as

dire/shield charge,
stunning blow/fist/shield,
trip/improved trip,
kukan-do,
tomb of jade,
frozen/spinning ice, Slap in the Face,
sweeping strikes,
tremor,
take down,
thunder shock
lay waste

The majority of these can obtain vastly higher dc than casters can.

For Reaper mode? Right on! Let's do this.

[Aelonwy]

That isn't what I wrote. At most, on R10, casters would have (without ANY investment) a 50% chance to overcome Reaper Spell Resistance. On R1, they would (by default) have a 95% chance to overcome it (not for their spell to fail).

My apologies if I misread the OP, but I've seen threads calling for blanket failure chance for spellcasters regardless of the games mechanic hoops spellcasters already have to jump through to get a spell to land (looking at you >> You are not facing message when I can't face a creature trying to occupy the same pixel space as my character).

[Wizza]

My apologies if I misread the OP, but I've seen threads calling for blanket failure chance for spellcasters regardless of the games mechanic hoops spellcasters already have to jump through to get a spell to land (looking at you >> You are not facing message when I can't face a creature trying to occupy the same pixel space as my character).

"You are not facing the mob right in front of you!"

[Chacka_DDO]

In my opinion, DC checks are the biggest issue in DDO, the suggestion to give monsters, even more, Saves so DC spells like death spells jut almost never work to make the content more difficulty leads DDO even more on the wrong path.
If you give monsters rediculous high saves you effectively remove certain spells from the game because almost no one can make those spells work anymore.
DDO needs a new system for DC casting similar to ac not a 20 roll and all or nothing, this is just wrong in my opinion.
For death spells the balance should come foremost from the casting time and cool down.
It is also possible to make partially success possible (percentage damage) the system adapted from Pen & Paper is not really sufficient for an MMO
Even if it worked for many years, this doesn't mean it can't be better.
The biggest gap of the current system is that if you have 95% fail the conclusion foremost from new players is: This game is not working.
This splits for the player base even more in my opinion.
And if you have 95% success chance there is no possible improvement too.
The d20 should give some variance but it should not decide for all or nothing.
Much like the old AC system showed that this is just not a sufficient system for DDO

[Jasparion]

How about applying the same rules to both melee and ranged classes?

This includes cc such as

dire/shield charge,
stunning blow/fist/shield,
trip/improved trip,
kukan-do,
tomb of jade,
frozen/spinning ice, Slap in the Face,
sweeping strikes,
tremor,
take down,
thunder shock
lay waste

The majority of these can obtain vastly higher dc than casters can.

Can we change it so that Melee kite mobs without getting hit and suffer zero loss to their DPS?

[Pyed-Pyper]

... Reaper is the new normal?

Reaper = New Elite = New "normal". Yes, and I think it is obviously intentionally so.

I appreciate the amount of thought you've recently put into trying to fix the game.

Too bad DDO is the game equivalent of a slum-lord's rent house. Sure, it was beautiful when it was new. But that was then, and this is now. The current owner doesn't care about the structural rot, they just want to squeeze every last dime out of it before the city condemns the neighborhood. As the tenant, you point out the termites here, and the leaky plumbing there, to no avail. The owner doesn't want the hassle of really fixing it right, it makes (business) sense to just slap on another coat of paint, squirt some temp sealant on the pipe and make bank.

[AbyssalMage]

And the hate versus caster continues. I would ask when the hate will end but I know the answer.

[AbyssalMage]

In my opinion, DC checks are the biggest issue in DDO, the suggestion to give monsters, even more, Saves so DC spells like death spells jut almost never work to make the content more difficulty leads DDO even more on the wrong path.

Well, the game has been going the "wrong path" for awhile so "adding another nail" would be "par for the course."

If you give monsters rediculous high saves you effectively remove certain spells from the game because almost no one can make those spells work anymore.

They have done this. If any of the forumites who post things like the OP has been around, they would know this.

DDO needs a new system for DC casting similar to ac not a 20 roll and all or nothing, this is just wrong in my opinion.

There is nothing inherently wrong with d20. The new AC system is a joke. Which was followed up with PRR and MRR. Now they added "Deflection." When does it stop?

For death spells the balance should come foremost from the casting time and cool down.

Yeah, that is what they are balanced around currently. I forget what FoD and PW:K have their timers at now but I know it is longer than back in 2010 because of ideas like this.

It is also possible to make partially success possible (percentage damage) the system adapted from Pen & Paper is not really sufficient for an MMO

Why? If the spell fails, the NPC stays alive. Otherwise it is dead. Those "climbing the mountain" have something to look forward too while those at the "top" can revel in their accomplishments.

Even if it worked for many years, this doesn't mean it can't be better.

What's that quote?
"If it's not broke, don't fix it?"
DC casting has finally been viable now for ~2 years. Still sucks vs. immune targets, so adjust. Those players have.

The biggest gap of the current system is that if you have 95% fail the conclusion foremost from new players is: This game is not working.

If you are failing 95% of the time then maybe you should seek help. Even without effort you should be at least 50/50 which isn't great when things happen so fast and teammates are relying on you to drop that CC spell in a hoard of 15 NPC's that just caused DA (giving them even more advantage). Let's put the speculation to rest, SSG (and formerly Turbine) actively create DA in newer content, when fully scaled (and occasionally when not scaled).

This splits for the player base even more in my opinion.

Yeah, how many nerf DC casting posts can SSG allow?

And if you have 95% success chance there is no possible improvement too.

Hmmm...If I am at 110% chance (capped at 95%) I can stand to lose 3 DC on a slot and maybe place something there that will benefit my damaging spells (so I can contribute more vs. Red Named, DW NPC's. It's just a thought on my part. Or, my single target DPS is as "Good as it's going to currently get" so I look at improving my Dodge or PRR cap. There is always something to improve.

The d20 should give some variance but it should not decide for all or nothing.
Much like the old AC system showed that this is just not a sufficient system for DDO

The old AC system worked until you added % (i.e. multiplicative) increase to AC to individual classes. Go look at PnP D&D and see how usable AC is at all levels of play. My +5 Leather Armor (w/high Dex) was just as relevant as your +5 Platemail at the upper levels. Once you start adding Power Creep and losing control of the core of the game, that is when you have problems. I wasn't in favor of the AC changes then and it's still coming back to haunt the developers now. Look above, how many "new" defensive systems have they included because they are continuing to try and balance the Power Creep they keep adding.

[Jasparion]

And the hate versus caster continues. I would ask when the hate will end but I know the answer.

Yeah, its so tough for casters now. And dont even get me started on ranged builds.

[PermaBanned]

The suggestion put forward seems an elegant one in that no matter stat or DC inflation it will be a set amount of unreliability, allowing for a challenge for many years.

In my longest running (8th grade ~> age 26) table top group, we used "The Rule of 1s & 20s." Simply put the 1s always fail, 'cause no matter how good you are; sometimes **** happens. The 20 always succeeds, 'cause anyone can get lucky.

I always thought it was a pity that DDO didn't use something similar, (even though some folks do just hate any element of randomness) as it would prevent "no fail" and "guaranteed success" builds. When success isn't garaunteed, it remains sought after rather than expected.

[Wipey]

Randomness is bad, not a challenge.
Magic in this game ( and many others ) is a chess, not a lottery.
The challenge is to know monsters spawns, behaviour, weak and high saves. Now add immunities, especially now in high skulls which you must know if you dance it, hold it, web it, stone or greater shout it. Building for such high DCs is another matter itself. So how many uber casters you know ? How many newbs even try ? Yeah thought so.

What are your characters DCs anyway ?

It would be like attacking a monster and your weapon just keeps randomly dropping on the ground ... because challenge.
Without bonus effect of some of your party dying too due to fail crowd control.
So you build for DCs, you react quick, but nope. Challenge.

[Odysseus2011]

What, however, if Reaper mode simply included a behind-the-scenes roll straight up against a d20? Call it a Reaper Spell Check or whatever. The player can never boost their roll and the mobs are assigned a Reaper Spell Resistance stat of 1 - 10 (based on the level of Reaper) and whenever the player attempts to cast a non-damage spell against the mob they must roll higher than the Reaper Spell Resistance number or else the a red shield will pop up and the mob will resist the spell. At R1 you would have a 95% chance (followed by the typical spell pen and DC check) to succeed and at R10 you would have a 50% chance (followed by the typical spell pen and DC check) to succeed.

This has already been implemented; this is literally what the champion system does. There are specific champions that are immune to Mind Control/Instakill effects so in every difficulty from Hard -> Reaper 10 there is a percent chance that a mob will be a champion, then a percent chance that that champion will be immune to either Mind Control, Instakills, or both.

The chance that a mob is a champion increases from some value in Hard up to a much higher value in Reaper 10, therefore the system you are advocating for is already in effect.

[karatemack]

And the hate versus caster continues. I would ask when the hate will end but I know the answer.

I play a DC caster as my main. No hatred for casters here at all. Balance against no-fail DCs helps casters in the long-term. A practical return to a valid D20 roll would be very healthy for the game. It would also allow DC and Spell Pen progression in the rest of the content (outside of Reaper) without fear of negating all of the difficulty of Reaper mode. It's a win for the players and the developers.

Randomness is bad, not a challenge.

Completely disagree. A roll of a D20 is built into a LOT of the game as is it now... even with DC casting... the DC check, spell pen check and the check I propose ALL involve the roll of a D20. The only difference is you won't be able to inflate your roll against Reaper Spell Penetration.

Magic in this game ( and many others ) is a chess, not a lottery.

Wrong again. Some spells have 1 save... some have many save attempts. What determines when a mob saves vs when it stays under the effect? What's lame is pass/fail checks... what's interesting is chance for success.

It would be like attacking a monster and your weapon just keeps randomly dropping on the ground ... because challenge.

No, it's more like you attempt to trip an enemy but it guards against the attempt. Or attempt to stun a mob but it resists the effect. You melee attack is like a ranged damage spell attack... your DC abilities are like DC spells.

This has already been implemented; this is literally what the champion system does. There are specific champions that are immune to Mind Control/Instakill effects so in every difficulty from Hard -> Reaper 10 there is a percent chance that a mob will be a champion, then a percent chance that that champion will be immune to either Mind Control, Instakills, or both.

Blanket immunity is nowhere close to what I proposed. % of mobs immune and % to succeed against every mob are different things. The way it is now... you see the champ flag and change tactics. The way I'm suggesting... every mob could be your doom. But then, only those who actually want Reaper to be a challenge for years to come will see the value in what I'm proposing.