Duality, The Moral Compass - do you know what class balance means?

[Arkat]

Ive already been avoiding Friday nights through to Monday mornings for the past 18 months so I dont get caught up in the pattern based Friday after office hours hoe down that usually occurs.

Not me. I'll post whenever the heck I feel like it...or not.

[Avocado]

Its a bad decision because sliding scale balancing does not resolve the issue. There are hundreds of examples of nerfing and buffing in DDO not accomplishing anything even remotely close to game balance.

Furthermore, from a revenue generation perspective, repeatedly getting people all excited to play the new revamped class, only to nerf multiple aspects of it after the revamps (AKA after people already paid into the system to bring their monks up to speed and out of mothballs) is not a very good retention strategy.

I have already outlined, yes using a wall of text, how the game should be balanced, rather than using sliding scale "fairness" or "sameness" systems.

And lastly, every single monk player should not have to suffer because a few people on the forums cannot tolerate a few statistical outliers at the very top (and relegated to the highest levels of the game) outperforming all other melee. Nerfing all family sedans, hatchbacks, and town cars because someone's Ferrari tops out at 240 MPH is horrible logic.

No? Okay buff other melees to that power then. Is the game balanced then?

[Chai]

No? Okay buff other melees to that power then. Is the game balanced then?

Thats just more sliding scale balance. It just moves the slider the other way.

When people demand 'fairness" this is what SSG will choose however, as given a choice between having their characters buffed or having them nerfed, people will choose the former. Buffing entices people to spend money dusting the mothballs off their parked characters and tome-ing+PLing them up to snuff for the current META, and thus is a better retention strategy as well as revenue generation strategy, even when it has just as much of a negative impact on the game from a balance perspective as nerfing does.

Thus, this is what we get when demanding "fairness" and not being willing to explore other options.

[Avocado]

I've seen a lot of people demanding to know why monks got the best weapon buff. It's pretty obvious to me.

Melee that aren't monks got two pieces of gear from raids. http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bloodrage_Chrism

That is why the monk weapon is better. Notice how Bloodrage Chrism uncenters you? That's why.

Why didn't ranged get more damage? Ranged don't need it. Ranged have the advantage of being ranged. Melee need something to make up for that disadvantage. Monks got extra damage, other melee got a badass trinket.

The devs are right to not listen to you people. Power creep happens and it actually fun for a lot of players. DDO is more ARPG than MMO. Deal with it.

That trinket is for two handed fighters. Aka , not all other melees. What about two weapon fighting? That trinket doesn't add nearly the power of those wraps. Range did get more damage. Bows do need more dps. Handwraps that triple dps or 30 percent more damage, 10 double strike, 30 mrr and 10 prr ? Hmm touch choice if you are a dps build. /Sarcastic

[lastsolomon]

That trinket is for two handed fighters. Aka , not all other melees. What about two weapon fighting? That trinket doesn't add nearly the power of those wraps. Range did get more damage. Bows do need more dps. Handwraps that triple dps or 30 percent more damage, 10 double strike, 30 mrr and 10 prr ? Hmm touch choice if you are a dps build. /Sarcastic

Two weapon fighting builds are in a bad place, and I think it would be great if that was addressed. That isn't a good excuse to nerf monks though.

I didn't claimed that ranged didn't get more damage. My claim was that they didn't get as much increased power as monks and two handed builds. And I think that's okay.

I accept that bows are the worst ranged option. I don't care much though as all ranged are still better than melee in high reaper, and there's always going to be better and worse build options. Doesn't mean I would cry if bows were brought more in line with other ranged options, but I also don't see it as something critical to game balance.

I didn't say the trinket adds as much power as the handwraps. I said that the fact that two handed melee get a new trinket and a new weapon is the obvious reason for why the monk weapon is better. Maybe the monk weapon should be nerfed a bit, but I'm not convinced that it should either. It definitely shouldn't be brought in line with the two handed weapons while the trinket also exists.

All builds in DDO need survivability. Monks do the most damage right now. So what? Other builds are tankier. If you want to only care about dps and discount the value of survivability entirely, I suggest you go play World of Warcraft instead of DDO.

PS: Your sarcasm and use of whataboutisms is probably why so many people seem to disagree with you virulently. If you tried to make your points in a more personable way your words might not fall on deaf ears so often. This is probably also why the devs don't respond often. If I were them I would be quite sick of dealing with people that act like you.

[Avocado]

Two weapon fighting builds are in a bad place, and I think it would be great if that was addressed. That isn't a good excuse to nerf monks though.

I didn't claimed that ranged didn't get more damage. My claim was that they didn't get as much increased power as monks and two handed builds. And I think that's okay.

I accept that bows are the worst ranged option. I don't care much though as all ranged are still better than melee in high reaper, and there's always going to be better and worse build options. Doesn't mean I would cry if bows were brought more in line with other ranged options, but I also don't see it as something critical to game balance.

I didn't say the trinket adds as much power as the handwraps. I said that the fact that two handed melee get a new trinket and a new weapon is the obvious reason for why the monk weapon is better. Maybe the monk weapon should be nerfed a bit, but I'm not convinced that it should either. It definitely shouldn't be brought in line with the two handed weapons while the trinket also exists.

All builds in DDO need survivability. Monks do the most damage right now. So what? Other builds are tankier. If you want to only care about dps and discount the value of survivability entirely, I suggest you go play World of Warcraft instead of DDO.

PS: Your sarcasm and use of whataboutisms is probably why so many people seem to disagree with you virulently. If you tried to make your points in a more personable way your words might not fall on deaf ears so often. This is probably also why the devs don't respond often. If I were them I would be quite sick of dealing with people that act like you.

People disagree with me because of principle. They want to disagree. There are many that also agree with me, they just get drowned out by all the people who don't. A few of the ones that disagree have brought little evidence to the discussion about why they should get to keep their OP gear. I know some of these people's reputation in game and I know why they disagree with me. They like their dps toys.

I didnt ask them to nerf monks. I asked them to consider the implications of their choices and see if it actually was what they intended. If they intended for these wraps to be very powerful then fine. Nerfing the handwraps is not a direct nerf to the class, unless classes are defined by the named weapon they choose. If that is so then we have a larger issue in DDO. If monks are now defined by these handwraps, that IS a problem.

[nokowi]

Going back to Symbiot's screenshots...

Monk Weapon Dice

20 monk	3.5
Duality	7.5
Shintao - touch the void dragon	1.0
Shintao - to seek perfection	2.0
Improved Martial Arts (Feat)	1.0
Legendary Dreadnought Improved Power Attack	0.5
Guild Buff	0.25
Legendary Dreadnought - combat brute	1.0
Grand Master of Flowers - a dance of flowers	1.5
Fleetfoot necklace	1.5
Past life	0.5
TOTAL WEAPON DICE	20.25

Monk Melee Power

Sentient - prowess	100
Legendary Dreadnought - blitz	70
Epic Levels x 10	30
Legendary Dreadnought 6 tiers	18
Shintao - touch the void dragon	10
Shintao - to seek perfection	25
Sentient - per Symbiot post	18
Other feats and gear	~20
Human boost	20
TOTAL MELEE POWER	311

Monk Base Damage - Legendary Tavern Brawlers 293 MP and +5% relentless fury
Weapon Dice: 18.25 (see above and subtract 2)
Dex Bonus: 26
Power Attack: 10
Weapon Enhancement: 15
All other damage (deadly + build): ~35
Crit: (18)x3 (19-20)x5 overwhelming critical & devastating critical

UNSCALED DAMAGE = (18.25*3.5 + 15) wraps + 26*1.5(dex from power attack) + 10(power attack) + 35 (all other damage) = 162.875

DAMAGE WITH MELEE POWER = 162.875*(100+293)/100 = 640.1

DAMAGE WITH LEG DREAD ACTION BOOST DAMAGE (30%) & Relentless Fury (5%) = 669.4*1.35 = 864

TOTAL DAMAGE = 784 (after 80 DR from LH portal) - consistent with Symbiot's screenshot - a touch low

__________________________________________________ ____________________________


Monk Base Damage - Duality 311 MP, no relentless fury
Weapon Dice: 20.25
Dex Bonus: 27
Power Attack: 10
Weapon Enhancement: 17
All other damage (deadly + build): ~35
Crit: (17-18)x3 (19-20)x5 overwhelming critical & devastating critical

UNSCALED DAMAGE = (20.25*(3.5+6) + 17) wraps + 27*1.5(dex from power attack) + 10(power attack) + 35 (all other damage) = 294.875

DAMAGE WITH MELEE POWER = 294.875*(100+311)/100 = 1211.9

DAMAGE WITH LEG DREAD ACTION BOOST DAMAGE (30%) = 1211.9*1.30 = 1575

TOTAL DAMAGE = 1495 (after 80 DR from LH portal) - low compared to Symbiot's screenshot averaging 185 more damage


So the screenshots for damage are right about where we would expect from these build choices.

__________________________________________________ ____________________________

Duality	3270 avg damage	= 1575*(1+0.1*2+0.1*4) + 750 SA
Legendary Tavern Brawlers	2046 avg damage	= 864*(1+0.05*2+0.1*4) + 750 SA

This looks like more like a 65-75% boost in power from increase base weapon damage (my duality damage #'s are 10-15% too low, so my "best guess" build values are probably off a bit.

Any weapon effects would be on top of this (5% more? + orange slot).


--> I will update if Symbiot gives me better values for MP and additional feat/build damage.

[nokowi]

reserved

[Symbiont]

Going back to Symbiot's screenshots...

Monk Weapon Dice

20 monk	3.5
Duality	7.5
Shintao - touch the void dragon	1.0
Shintao - to seek perfection	2.0
Improved Martial Arts (Feat)	1.0
Legendary Dreadnought Improved Power Attack	0.5
Guild Buff	0.25
Legendary Dreadnought - combat brute	1.0
Grand Master of Flowers - a dance of flowers	1.5
Fleetfoot necklace	1.5
Past life	0.5
TOTAL WEAPON DICE	20.25

Monk Melee Power

Senitent - prowess	100
Legendary Dreadnought - blitz	70
Epic Levels x 10	30
Legendary Dreadnought 6 tiers	18
Shintao - touch the void dragon	10
Shintao - to seek perfection	25
Sentient - per Symbiot post	18
Other feats and gear	~20
Human boost	20
TOTAL MELEE POWER	311

Monk Base Damage - Legendary Tavern Brawlers 293 MP and +5% relentless fury
Weapon Dice: 18.25 (see above and subtract 2)
Dex Bonus: 26
Power Attack: 10
Weapon Enhancement: 15
All other damage (deadly + build): ~35
Crit: (18)x3 (19-20)x5 overwhelming critical & devastating critical

UNSCALED DAMAGE = (18.25*3.5 + 15) wraps + 26*1.5(dex from power attack) + 10(power attack) + 35 (all other damage) = 162.875

DAMAGE WITH MELEE POWER = 162.875*(100+293)/100 = 640.1

DAMAGE WITH LEG DREAD ACTION BOOST DAMAGE (30%) & Relentless Fury (5%) = 669.4*1.35 = 864

TOTAL DAMAGE = 784 (after 80 DR from LH portal) - consistent with Symbiot's screenshot - a touch low

__________________________________________________ ____________________________


Monk Base Damage - Duality 311 MP, no relentless fury
Weapon Dice: 20.25
Dex Bonus: 27
Power Attack: 10
Weapon Enhancement: 17
All other damage (deadly + build): ~35
Crit: (17-18)x3 (19-20)x5 overwhelming critical & devastating critical

UNSCALED DAMAGE = (20.25*(3.5+6) + 17) wraps + 27*1.5(dex from power attack) + 10(power attack) + 35 (all other damage) = 294.875

DAMAGE WITH MELEE POWER = 294.875*(100+311)/100 = 1211.9

DAMAGE WITH LEG DREAD ACTION BOOST DAMAGE (30%) = 1211.9*1.30 = 1575

TOTAL DAMAGE = 1495 (after 80 DR from LH portal) - a little low compared to Symbiot's screenshot


So the screenshots for damage are right about where we would expect from these build choices.

__________________________________________________ ____________________________


Duality 3270 avg damage = 1575*(1+0.1*2+0.1*4) + 750 SA
Legendary Tavern Brawlers 2046 avg damage = 864*(1+0.05*2+0.1*4) + 750 SA

Very close on both, missing only miscellaneous bonuses:



^ When I posted this, this was not with Dreadnought +30 MP boost - so this is actually 356 MP, situationally.



There was a mixture of reaper/mythic boosts spread across gear; it ends up adding to this value of MP and 20.75 dice, respectively. This compensates for some of the slight drop of your calculated DPS versus the damage portrayed. Though, no matter how it's looked at, dice seem to have an unexplained multiplicative bonus that is adding more than it seems. I don't know if adding +[W] takes the maximum that each die can possibly roll (if anyone's ever noticed that hitting cleaves on a THF weapon seems to add over 100 to base damage at level cap, despite them merely being +1/2[W] attacks), bringing [1d6+6] to a theoretical value of 12 - which is then prone to scale with MP. This is just a thought, solely because there's still a substantial gap in the DPS dealt and DPS calculated in text, despite nearly all quantities being factored into the breakdown.

On top of this, intelligence scaling into KTA wasn't factored - which is currently sitting 70 (30 mod, +15 damage prone to scaling), so this helps.

On the contrary, Dreadnought +30% damage boost doesn't exist anymore - it was replaced with Melee Power +30 boost. There's a plethora of additional bonuses that factor in a multitude of ways - I don't have enough time tonight to do a breakdown on everything; I posted the damage profile of duality (+120 to damage, but KTA does not visually add to this number on your details list, so this is +135 in reality), and the base profile of Tavern Brawler's can be calculated by just stripping Duality of filigrees and adjusting it to compensate for the difference. This is an interesting thread to say the least (in terms of the subject), and I plan on testing additional Ravenloft weapons (and breaking down damage) whenever I eventually roll a kensei to do this.

+1 for taking the extra step

[Borkor]

No offense , F2P did NOT save this game. It brought us an influx of new players, yes, longevity? NO.

Not sure how you define longevity. If by longevity you mean 80 years you may be correct. If longevity means, as I think others intend, that a life of something is extended, then they are correct and you are wrong. As to saving the game, you are clearly wrong. F2P is why this game still exists today and you are able to make such nonsensical statements on the forums of said game. Without F2P this game would have died years ago. So if by 'save' you mean keep the game alive and extend it's life (longevity) maybe now you can see how absurd your comment is.

[Borkor]

The raid one is a great choice over a riftmaker. Also, vulnerability + armor destruction adds a ton of raid dps on high level bosses.

If all weapons and classes scaled exactly the same 1-30 there would be no moment to shine and no interesting weapons to enjoy. Every weapon would be formulaic +1 enhancement per 2 levels, +1[W] per 10 levels, and 1d6 bonus damage of the same element per 3 levels (because it would be unfair to get the element that everything is immune to).

At that point, you might as well make it a first person shooter, and do away with gear entirely as it wouldn't add anything interesting to the game.

When they nerf Duality, they should make sure to nerf SoS and ESOS as well because they are also clearly far more power creep than other items at their level. If monks can't have a period to shine, no one else should either.

Are you playing in 2013? SoS and ESoS are garbage in current meta. You can craft a better weapon. Why would they nerf garbage that no one uses anymore?

[grandeibra]

When they nerf Duality, they should make sure to nerf SoS and ESOS as well because they are also clearly far more power creep than other items at their level

Are you playing in 2013? SoS and ESoS are garbage in current meta. You can craft a better weapon. Why would they nerf garbage that no one uses anymore?

Hey I play monk and I'm all for Duality being fixed... but esos garbage at lvl vs crafted weapons? Are you saying you can craft much much better weapons than esos at lvl 20? Can you specify bc if so Ill change my choice of weapons not only on 2HF but on others as well for lvls 20-22 on future epic reincarnations.

[JoeShmo]

Very close on both, missing only miscellaneous bonuses:



^ When I posted this, this was not with Dreadnought +30 MP boost - so this is actually 356 MP, situationally.



There was a mixture of reaper/mythic boosts spread across gear; it ends up adding to this value of MP and 20.75 dice, respectively. This compensates for some of the slight drop of your calculated DPS versus the damage portrayed. Though, no matter how it's looked at, dice seem to have an unexplained multiplicative bonus that is adding more than it seems. I don't know if adding +[W] takes the maximum that each die can possibly roll (if anyone's ever noticed that hitting cleaves on a THF weapon seems to add over 100 to base damage at level cap, despite them merely being +1/2[W] attacks), bringing [1d6+6] to a theoretical value of 12 - which is then prone to scale with MP. This is just a thought, solely because there's still a substantial gap in the DPS dealt and DPS calculated in text, despite nearly all quantities being factored into the breakdown.

On top of this, intelligence scaling into KTA wasn't factored - which is currently sitting 70 (30 mod, +15 damage prone to scaling), so this helps.

On the contrary, Dreadnought +30% damage boost doesn't exist anymore - it was replaced with Melee Power +30 boost. There's a plethora of additional bonuses that factor in a multitude of ways - I don't have enough time tonight to do a breakdown on everything; I posted the damage profile of duality (+120 to damage, but KTA does not visually add to this number on your details list, so this is +135 in reality), and the base profile of Tavern Brawler's can be calculated by just stripping Duality of filigrees and adjusting it to compensate for the difference. This is an interesting thread to say the least (in terms of the subject), and I plan on testing additional Ravenloft weapons (and breaking down damage) whenever I eventually roll a kensei to do this.

+1 for taking the extra step

I would love to know why my damage dice is 16.8 [1d6+6] instead of 20ish? I have all the things that give extra W that were listed a post above yours so not sure what I'm missing here. I don't have the Improved PA from LD and it doesn't look like you do either? Just trying to see what I'm missing or if my UI is bugged somehow...Thanks!

[nokowi]

I would love to know why my damage dice is 16.8 [1d6+6] instead of 20ish? I have all the things that give extra W that were listed a post above yours so not sure what I'm missing here. I don't have the Improved PA from LD and it doesn't look like you do either? Just trying to see what I'm missing or if my UI is bugged somehow...Thanks!

When I was trying to guess a reasonable build through wiki, I found several sources of +W that don't properly appear on the UI. Improved PA is one of them, but there were also a few others.

Improved Power Attack: Active Ability: (Cooldown 6 seconds) When Stance: Power Attack is active, you deal +0.5[W] damage with weapons.
Bug: As of Update 22.3 the extra 0.5[W] damage from Improved Power Attack does not display on your weapons, but does display on the inventory damage box and in the players combat chat log. The +0.5[W] increase in damage works and applies normally.

[nokowi]

Very close on both, missing only miscellaneous bonuses:

Thanks!

I think your base damage of +120 is larger than what I had. I'm pretty sure I can iron out the differences and get closer to your values.

We can conclude that +20W and 1500 base damage are clearly obtainable values for non-helpless mobs.

Throwing in monk attack speed and helpless condition should make for some crazy DPS. I'd like to see what you can achieve.

[JoeShmo]

When I was trying to guess a reasonable build through wiki, I found several sources of +W that don't properly appear on the UI. Improved PA is one of them, but there were also a few others.

Improved Power Attack: Active Ability: (Cooldown 6 seconds) When Stance: Power Attack is active, you deal +0.5[W] damage with weapons.
Bug: As of Update 22.3 the extra 0.5[W] damage from Improved Power Attack does not display on your weapons, but does display on the inventory damage box and in the players combat chat log. The +0.5[W] increase in damage works and applies normally.

Yeah I understand that bug, but Symb is running Combat Expertise since you took that in LD, so PA wouldn't apply, right?

[Slazinger1]

Guess I don't understand how running with a monk in my group that is using these wraps is hurting me.

[Alled78]

It is about 2 years we had a very strong class: warlock
I dont see any problem if another can lead the scene...


I wanna see that power monk in r10...

I think the problem is the real weak of all other a mele, because

Casters and ranged are doing very well.

At the end i donthave any problema with Duality

Ps actually playing: warlock, artificier, sorc

[CeltEireson]

Very close on both, missing only miscellaneous bonuses:

^ When I posted this, this was not with Dreadnought +30 MP boost - so this is actually 356 MP, situationally.

There was a mixture of reaper/mythic boosts spread across gear; it ends up adding to this value of MP and 20.75 dice, respectively. This compensates for some of the slight drop of your calculated DPS versus the damage portrayed. Though, no matter how it's looked at, dice seem to have an unexplained multiplicative bonus that is adding more than it seems. I don't know if adding +[W] takes the maximum that each die can possibly roll (if anyone's ever noticed that hitting cleaves on a THF weapon seems to add over 100 to base damage at level cap, despite them merely being +1/2[W] attacks), bringing [1d6+6] to a theoretical value of 12 - which is then prone to scale with MP. This is just a thought, solely because there's still a substantial gap in the DPS dealt and DPS calculated in text, despite nearly all quantities being factored into the breakdown.

On top of this, intelligence scaling into KTA wasn't factored - which is currently sitting 70 (30 mod, +15 damage prone to scaling), so this helps.

On the contrary, Dreadnought +30% damage boost doesn't exist anymore - it was replaced with Melee Power +30 boost. There's a plethora of additional bonuses that factor in a multitude of ways - I don't have enough time tonight to do a breakdown on everything; I posted the damage profile of duality (+120 to damage, but KTA does not visually add to this number on your details list, so this is +135 in reality), and the base profile of Tavern Brawler's can be calculated by just stripping Duality of filigrees and adjusting it to compensate for the difference. This is an interesting thread to say the least (in terms of the subject), and I plan on testing additional Ravenloft weapons (and breaking down damage) whenever I eventually roll a kensei to do this.

+1 for taking the extra step

Tend to use the action boost haste - not the outright increase in damage per hit, but its nice seeing the monk hitting at the speed of a blender, plus increases self healing if you've applied the healing curse.

Also its not that difficult to add in another 40 melee power from Henshine Mystic - only requires an investment of 21 enhancement points and there's some stuff in there for non-quarterstaff users. And if you really want to stack up the multiple Ws you could always take Way of the tenacious badge for another 1w if you don't mind being at half health.

[Chai]

Two weapon fighting builds are in a bad place, and I think it would be great if that was addressed. That isn't a good excuse to nerf monks though.

I didn't claimed that ranged didn't get more damage. My claim was that they didn't get as much increased power as monks and two handed builds. And I think that's okay.

I accept that bows are the worst ranged option. I don't care much though as all ranged are still better than melee in high reaper, and there's always going to be better and worse build options. Doesn't mean I would cry if bows were brought more in line with other ranged options, but I also don't see it as something critical to game balance.

I didn't say the trinket adds as much power as the handwraps. I said that the fact that two handed melee get a new trinket and a new weapon is the obvious reason for why the monk weapon is better. Maybe the monk weapon should be nerfed a bit, but I'm not convinced that it should either. It definitely shouldn't be brought in line with the two handed weapons while the trinket also exists.

All builds in DDO need survivability. Monks do the most damage right now. So what? Other builds are tankier. If you want to only care about dps and discount the value of survivability entirely, I suggest you go play World of Warcraft instead of DDO.

PS: Your sarcasm and use of whataboutisms is probably why so many people seem to disagree with you virulently. If you tried to make your points in a more personable way your words might not fall on deaf ears so often. This is probably also why the devs don't respond often. If I were them I would be quite sick of dealing with people that act like you.

I agree entirely. Isolating one variable in a vacuum and demanding it to be fair throughout the classes will simply cause the class that performs better in other ways to be the next META. If all melee have the same or similar DPS due to fairness balancing the game, the one that recovers and mitigates best will be the most popular. This fixation on damage numbers alone, as well as the fixation on the new thing alone, hurts any case for sameness and fairness balance far more than it helps.