warlocks are imbalanced

[Qhualor]

In ES1 EE, if you were playing with a properly played warlock, you wouldn't have gotten more than 5 kills in the entire chain, and the warlock would never have died.

just ES1 EE or you referring to something more broad? your response seems to pretty much agree with what I said, though I have been in groups with a "properly played" warlock many times and sometimes I feel like I just ride coattails and sometimes we are neck and neck.

really, despite the thread being about warlock and where my post talked mainly about the topic, a well played anything can be considered a top build. something the forums easily like to try and dismiss is the most important part of playing any character.. knowledge. with experience comes knowledge. a strong character is built from knowledge. knowledge is power. you cant just roll up a warlock or any build and suddenly just beat the game so easily.

[jalont]

here, lemme quote the relevant part again



A properly played warlock. As mentioned (by someone else) elsewhere, player knowledge is a HUGE factor in how a character does.

A new player cannot pick up and play a warlock (even an experienced gamer, though their learning curve will be shorter) in anywhere close to the capability of a well played/built/geared vet.

If a new player reads the forums, they may think, 'wow, warlock is so op, I can do anything' roll one, wander into HE (assuming VIP) and get whacked.

It takes knowledge to build a warlock to anywhere near their potential, and if you don't have that knowledge they are only marginally better (if that) than any other class.

I fully believe that any new player could take a Warlock build off this board and perform fine in all EE content. That isn't the case with any other class. That's sort of the point of my post. Qualor was likely playing with someone that had no business being in EE, but they still manage to come in second in kill counts.

[Morroiel]

I fully believe that any new player could take a Warlock build off this board and perform fine in all EE content. That isn't the case with any other class. That's sort of the point of my post. Qualor was likely playing with someone that had no business being in EE, but they still manage to come in second in kill counts.

First off: NOBODY should care about skill floor. You are talking about skill floor. All this does is let somebody who is bad at the game perform better relative to the baseline. It does not in anyway let them perform at the top of the pack. That requires a high skill ceiling build.

There are multiple flavors of warlock so I'm going to break it down:

ES Auralock (massively low skill floor, low skill ceiling) - Performs fine but doesn't benefit from pls, game knowledge, etc. in the same way that other top end builds do. It doesn't scale properly to allow top builds. New players can expect to perform at ~40-50th percentile after a tiny bit of investment. Vets and truly great players can expect to perform at 60th percentile at best.

SE/TS shiradi max dps (fairly usual level skill floor, medium-high skill ceiling) - much more squishy, relies on positioning / kiting, etc. Still not fantastically hard. Easy to learn how to play well if you've played the game for a while. Performs max at ~90th percentile to top builds if I had to place a number.

SE Necrolock (fiend/goo) (fairly high skill floor, arguably one of the highest skill ceilings in the game) - squishy as hell, relies on perfect positioning / kiting, game knowledge, twitch rxns, etc. to perform at its best. A new player trying this build will almost certainly be at bottom 10th percentile at best. A top tier player who spends time learning how to play can be in 95-99th percentile range.

I will say this: I can take a sorc and play it at the 95th-99th percentile range, and I can do the same with a wiz. My point being is that its not the warlock that causes issues for the top tier build balance. Its the massive skill difference of powergamers vs casuals when it comes to game knowledge, skills, and time investment into learning specifics of builds.

Anybody who thinks that dps focused locks are an issue at all in endgame content HAVE NO bearing on the game. If I were to just list roughly speaking builds this is where I'd place them:

S Tier: Arcane Based DC Casters (wiz, sorc, lock), Various shuri builds, Wolf Builds

A Tier: Shiradi sorc/wiz builds (10/6/4 vs 13/4/3) assuming not mana gated, Monk unarmed builds, a few tank builds (given that you need a tank), sylvanus builds

B Tier: Shiradi lock builds (cone shape 20 lock), Fighter twf, Tempest Twf, G xbow Mechanic, Subpar shuri builds

C Tier: ES Auralock, Henshin qstaff, Rogue acrobat, Divine DC Casters, Repeater Mechanic, AA Ranger (pure), barbarian

D Tier: ES Auralock (max con), Arti, Assassin Rogue (till sneak gets fixed), bear form druid, etc.

This is assuming best of the best players. Notice there are many dps builds significantly ahead of dps focused locks. I can out kill and out dps pretty much anyone playing a lock, by using my thrower. Anyone who plays actual endgame (or who has any reasonable amount of xp in endgame) will recognize this. There's a big difference between skill floor and skill ceiling. You balance for skill ceiling not skill floor.

[jalont]

First off: NOBODY should care about skill floor. You are talking about skill floor. All this does is let somebody who is bad at the game perform better relative to the baseline. It does not in anyway let them perform at the top of the pack. That requires a high skill ceiling build.

There are multiple flavors of warlock so I'm going to break it down:

ES Auralock (massively low skill floor, low skill ceiling) - Performs fine but doesn't benefit from pls, game knowledge, etc. in the same way that other top end builds do. It doesn't scale properly to allow top builds. New players can expect to perform at ~40-50th percentile after a tiny bit of investment. Vets and truly great players can expect to perform at 60th percentile at best.

SE/TS shiradi max dps (fairly usual level skill floor, medium-high skill ceiling) - much more squishy, relies on positioning / kiting, etc. Still not fantastically hard. Easy to learn how to play well if you've played the game for a while. Performs max at ~90th percentile to top builds if I had to place a number.

SE Necrolock (fiend/goo) (fairly high skill floor, arguably one of the highest skill ceilings in the game) - squishy as hell, relies on perfect positioning / kiting, game knowledge, twitch rxns, etc. to perform at its best. A new player trying this build will almost certainly be at bottom 10th percentile at best. A top tier player who spends time learning how to play can be in 95-99th percentile range.

I will say this: I can take a sorc and play it at the 95th-99th percentile range, and I can do the same with a wiz. My point being is that its not the warlock that causes issues for the top tier build balance. Its the massive skill difference of powergamers vs casuals when it comes to game knowledge, skills, and time investment into learning specifics of builds.

Anybody who thinks that dps focused locks are an issue at all in endgame content HAVE NO bearing on the game. If I were to just list roughly speaking builds this is where I'd place them:

S Tier: Arcane Based DC Casters (wiz, sorc, lock), Various shuri builds, Wolf Builds

A Tier: Shiradi sorc/wiz builds (10/6/4 vs 13/4/3) assuming not mana gated, Monk unarmed builds, a few tank builds (given that you need a tank), sylvanus builds

B Tier: Shiradi lock builds (cone shape 20 lock), Fighter twf, Tempest Twf, G xbow Mechanic, Subpar shuri builds

C Tier: ES Auralock, Henshin qstaff, Rogue acrobat, Divine DC Casters, Repeater Mechanic, AA Ranger (pure), barbarian

D Tier: ES Auralock (max con), Arti, Assassin Rogue (till sneak gets fixed), bear form druid, etc.

This is assuming best of the best players. Notice there are many dps builds significantly ahead of dps focused locks. I can out kill and out dps pretty much anyone playing a lock, by using my thrower. Anyone who plays actual endgame (or who has any reasonable amount of xp in endgame) will recognize this. There's a big difference between skill floor and skill ceiling. You balance for skill ceiling not skill floor.

I agree with all your points. The problem.. and I think where this entire discussion breaks down and why both sides will never agree, is that you're talking about like 2 percent of the game that like 5 people per server care about or play on.

[slarden]

Warlocks have become more imbalanced with reaper in large part because heroic is all that matters. There are still numerous broken builds in this game that having nothing to do with warlock.

One easy button reaper build is an ES/SE charming, instakilling blasting warlock. Cannith crafting helps quite a bit with the gearing.

Rather than looking at one class Turbine should look at certain mechanics like temp hp and charms, but there is a much larger list of broken mechanics beyond those 2.

[Viconiax]

i clearly imagine this was discussed already. but now it is my time. watched game, classes, known players, good(some stellar players on gland) and not so good and class as a whole is even in worse situation as it was before.
from my prespective of view, i can not even recall any game where one class would be so overpowered.
why? everyone knows why, players by taking powers, devs hiding eyes from problem.

to my sense, problem is worse than it was when we had similar thing with monks.

rationally, i have zero good choices if i want tr races. only best choice is variation of warlock.

i told before what you need to do, to balace it.

1. make all and every lock power be dependant of spell points. and. every and any walrock power under all caster weaknesess, spell level, cost, etc.
2. no hyper hp. it may be still viable ability, but it have to have downsides. my suggestion is negative levels. what would affect spell ability. every and each time warlock takes hitpoints from nowhere, it loses its sp, it loses level.
3. reduce so op warlock tree aoe hit. reduce it seriously in terms of cooldown AND spell power + spell level. make monsters to able save from it heavily. make it as spell as it should be.

there is zero excuses for warlocks be as it is. situation what we have now is worst class disbalance i can remember, save monkshuri/muri some years ago.

ty for time reading. not going into heavy discussions, not want, do not have time for this. we all love our game, i wish possibilities. choices. this is major flaw is see so far.

Hello, I just want to check in and say that while warlock is OP in heroic, they're nothing compare to good wizard/sorcerer in epic. Especially in epic reaper, any good DC PM/monk & Sorcerer will most of the time outperform them. And on higher skulls reaper, blasting warlock are ****.

Likewise, I thought this game was a PvE game and not PvE?

And @ sorcerer can't get high enough UMD. They're one of the easiest class to get really high UMD on.

[Smokewolf]

I agree with the OP that Warlocks are toally overdone in Heroics. Mix in 2 levels of Rogue, then a Warlock build can solo pretty much all non-raid Heroic content as well as most Epic content without breaking a sweat. Only class that even comes close to this is a TWF Barbarian wih Blood-Strength... (Considering overall DPS, healing, survivability and limited dependency on shrines)

IMO, Warlocks have become the goto class for all new players and those wanting to complete Racial-TR's. Most all the of pugs I've created / joined in the last three months typically have 2-3 Warlocks. It extremely rare now to see Favored Soul, Sorcerer or Bard. With the exception of those seeking completionist status.

[Sweyn]

Try counting just those players at level 30.

There is no reason to just count those at level 30. I made a claim that too many people are playing warlocks and provided evidence to support it. Level demographics are not important.

[jalont]

There is no reason to just count those at level 30. I made a claim that too many people are playing warlocks and provided evidence to support it. Level demographics are not important.

Exactly. You can't tell the majority of the game population who run 1-30 on elite or low-level reaper. tr, and then do it over again (which is how 95 percent of the population plays) that there's no problem just because warlock is "balanced" for the five people left in your dying "endgame" channel.

[SirValentine]

Warlocks are intentionally unbalanced.

Sadly, yes. Which is why, even when they make some token change to appease the threads like this that call it out, they don't address any substantive issues.

EDIT: A couple months later now, but I guess have to retract that: Devs have said in U36 they are actually directly nerfing Warlock DPS in Heroic.

[Six_Gun]

Sadly, yes. Which is why, even when they make some token change to appease the threads like this that call it out, they don't address any substantive issues.

Every nerf they've done to Warlock has only affected their Epic play, not their Heroic. I don't think the devs are capable of making corrections to their power in Heroic levels without completely trivializing them in Epics.

They are fine as is, a second/third tier Epic class.

[jalont]

They are fine as is, a second/third tier Epic class.

This isn't true. They remain OP compared to every other class in all Epic Elite and all LE, except for like three raids that no one runs on LE anymore. They also remain OP compared to every other class in epics from R1-R4.

What percentage of the player base do you think ever even steps foot into the content where Warlock power becomes more balanced? 3 percent? 4 percent? Obviously you see the problem here.

[JOTMON]

i clearly imagine this was discussed already. but now it is my time. watched game, classes, known players, good(some stellar players on gland) and not so good and class as a whole is even in worse situation as it was before.
from my prespective of view, i can not even recall any game where one class would be so overpowered.
why? everyone knows why, players by taking powers, devs hiding eyes from problem.

to my sense, problem is worse than it was when we had similar thing with monks.

rationally, i have zero good choices if i want tr races. only best choice is variation of warlock.

i told before what you need to do, to balace it.

1. make all and every lock power be dependant of spell points. and. every and any walrock power under all caster weaknesess, spell level, cost, etc.
2. no hyper hp. it may be still viable ability, but it have to have downsides. my suggestion is negative levels. what would affect spell ability. every and each time warlock takes hitpoints from nowhere, it loses its sp, it loses level.
3. reduce so op warlock tree aoe hit. reduce it seriously in terms of cooldown AND spell power + spell level. make monsters to able save from it heavily. make it as spell as it should be.

there is zero excuses for warlocks be as it is. situation what we have now is worst class disbalance i can remember, save monkshuri/muri some years ago.

ty for time reading. not going into heavy discussions, not want, do not have time for this. we all love our game, i wish possibilities. choices. this is major flaw is see so far.

these suggestions come across foolish at best.

1. Warlocks use eldritch power which does not use spell points, is not affected by meta's, no save, ignores spell pen. period..
..screwing with this would likely cause issues with the DnD license granted from WoTC..
..adjustments need to fall within reasonable limitations of the core class..

2. no.
..the Temp HP should be governed by warlock levels.. splashing 5 levels of warlock for full Temp HP access should be looked at.
..duration and cooldown could be looked at.
..address the Temp HP access for other classes.. like the upcoming cleric pass.. other classes..
Divines in particular should have access to casting temp HP buffs on players that do not stack with warlock temp HP.

3. no. Eldritch blasts have no save and the aoe is what it is.
smarter implementation of mobs.. ask a warlock how they fare against the Arach Knight in Von5.. http://ddowiki.com/page/Arach%27s_Knight
..where are the mobs that are resistant, immune or healed by force damage.. easy button for warlocks since this type of damage was never factored into old content.
..address things like 'Uttedark blast', the easy all access full damage button.. some Evil mobs should be immune or healed by evil damage like Liches..
..speed of eldritch attacks early in the game.. spam lobbing eldritch blasts from each hand , no cooldown, chargeup, just hold attack button...
..Pact access and pact damage comes early in the game.. this could be pushed back.


The game deserves smart tweaks, not uneducated nerf batting.


Fix melee.. it is currently fuxed. a melee needs to be able to stand toe to toe without being one or two shotted.. they are 'melee' after all...
Fix tanks.. a tank needs to be able to take a beating with minimal smart cures.. not yo-yo spam heals.. or rez cakes...flatten out that PRR curve for armored melee.. higher damage mitigation is needed.
Tanks need real damage mitigation.. standing stances that increase DR/PRR/MRR while stationary...
Melee DPS in Reaper.. something needs to be done here.. the melee reaper tree is weaksauce.. amp it up.. increments of +1 Melee Power/action point .. really.. pft... pathetic..


Cleric pass..
Cerics are supposed to be the walking destroyers of undead not just nanny booboo bandaid dispensers and rez spammers.
Serious revamp to turn undead..
Necro enhancement tree like wizard pale masters..
Temp HP spells/SLA's, regen spells, .. worthy spells, not left over garbage like 'mass aid' that died when endgame was level 12...
remove spell caps from healer spells.
Have the Temp HP be the same type as warlock Temp HP so it doesn't stack for them.
add enhancements for divines to add caster level/meta's to scrolls
NPC scrolls used to be part of the healer cycle of casting.. up through level 16.. now healers are left sucking mana pots to try and keep up..


Blue bars in general should have better access to mana regenning (without relying on DDO store mana pots and shrines)
.. its a big part in why Warlocks are so favorable.. they can keep contributing long after the mana bar is gone...
better regen options for blue bars for caster classes based on caster levels.. amp up the Echoes of Power by caster level..
perhaps enhancements/spells/sla's for draining mana from mobs..
conc-op doesn't hold up .. some better upgraded versions are long past due..
yeah yeah sure DDO store pots generate money.. until they don't .. when players TR out of sucky classes because no one wants to play a money pit class.
..change the 'Lost Souls' SP drop to be usable by everyone, not just the first sob to grab them.. adjust drop rate to compensate..

[esojiul]

i clearly imagine this was discussed already. but now it is my time. watched game, classes, known players, good(some stellar players on gland) and not so good and class as a whole is even in worse situation as it was before.
from my prespective of view, i can not even recall any game where one class would be so overpowered.
why? everyone knows why, players by taking powers, devs hiding eyes from problem.

to my sense, problem is worse than it was when we had similar thing with monks.

rationally, i have zero good choices if i want tr races. only best choice is variation of warlock.

i told before what you need to do, to balace it.

1. make all and every lock power be dependant of spell points. and. every and any walrock power under all caster weaknesses, spell level, cost, etc.
2. no hyper hp. it may be still viable ability, but it have to have downsides. my suggestion is negative levels. what would affect spell ability. every and each time warlock takes hitpoints from nowhere, it loses its sp, it loses level.
3. reduce so op warlock tree aoe hit. reduce it seriously in terms of cooldown AND spell power + spell level. make monsters to able save from it heavily. make it as spell as it should be.

there is zero excuses for warlocks be as it is. situation what we have now is worst class disbalance i can remember, save monkshuri/muri some years ago.

ty for time reading. not going into heavy discussions, not want, do not have time for this. we all love our game, i wish possibilities. choices. this is major flaw is see so far.

the class ok, i you dont like it, don't use warlocks. years ago ppl complain FVS and caster, they nerfed it, many ppl leave the game, because ppl wanted there toon to be special, and spends years improving it, and went they are happy with their build, its nerfed. Either way forget about other ppl, if you are new to the game, continued playing, sooner or later you will also how to make solid build.

[jalont]

the class ok, i you dont like it, don't use warlocks. years ago ppl complain FVS and caster, they nerfed it, many ppl leave the game, because ppl wanted there toon to be special, and spends years improving it, and went they are happy with their build, its nerfed. Either way forget about other ppl, if you are new to the game, continued playing, sooner or later you will also how to make solid build.

Disagree completely. Nerf all overpowered things.

The thought that you can't nerf Warlock's heroic/EE/ER1 OPness without hurting it in "endgame" is ridiculous. The reason warlock is so OP is because it is unkillable in heroic/ee/ER1, meaning warlocks can surround themselves with entire dungeons and blast away, greatly increasing their DPS to points that no other class can hit.

You can't play this way in R10.

R10 warlocks play completely differently. For the 6 people who play R10 on warlocks, nerfing its OPness will not hurt them whatsoever because they aren't running and blasting an entire dungeon with four clicks of a button.

[KoobTheProud]

Why would SSG want to nerf a class that is designed to allow newish players and casuals to overperform in heroic levels?

Seriously, if Locks were OP at endgame then yes a nerf is called for but if they're just OP while leveling through heroics and some EE content it's nuts for SSG to nerf that. That's the thing that keeps DDO accessible to people who want to get on the TR chain and get rolling. It's a simple on the highway class to 36 point builds.

Also, why is anybody complaining about Locks given that they are not OP at endgame?

What's that all about?

[jalont]

Why would SSG want to nerf a class that is designed to allow newish players and casuals to overperform in heroic levels?

Seriously, if Locks were OP at endgame then yes a nerf is called for but if they're just OP while leveling through heroics and some EE content it's nuts for SSG to nerf that. That's the thing that keeps DDO accessible to people who want to get on the TR chain and get rolling. It's a simple on the highway class to 36 point builds.

Also, why is anybody complaining about Locks given that they are not OP at endgame?

What's that all about?

Not "some EE." ALL EE and all LE quests as well. Sure, they're not OP in like two raids and R10 content, but no one, comparatively, plays that. DDO endgame is TRing, and that's where most people are and what most people are doing. And for the 95ish percent of the playerbase that never steps foot in high level reaper or LE raids, Warlocks break the game.

It would be insane to not balance them.

[Sweyn]

these suggestions come across foolish at best.

1. Warlocks use eldritch power which does not use spell points, is not affected by meta's, no save, ignores spell pen. period..
..screwing with this would likely cause issues with the DnD license granted from WoTC..
..adjustments need to fall within reasonable limitations of the core class..

2. no.
..the Temp HP should be governed by warlock levels.. splashing 5 levels of warlock for full Temp HP access should be looked at.
..duration and cooldown could be looked at.
..address the Temp HP access for other classes.. like the upcoming cleric pass.. other classes..
Divines in particular should have access to casting temp HP buffs on players that do not stack with warlock temp HP.

3. no. Eldritch blasts have no save and the aoe is what it is.
smarter implementation of mobs.. ask a warlock how they fare against the Arach Knight in Von5.. http://ddowiki.com/page/Arach%27s_Knight
..where are the mobs that are resistant, immune or healed by force damage.. easy button for warlocks since this type of damage was never factored into old content.
..address things like 'Uttedark blast', the easy all access full damage button.. some Evil mobs should be immune or healed by evil damage like Liches..
..speed of eldritch attacks early in the game.. spam lobbing eldritch blasts from each hand , no cooldown, chargeup, just hold attack button...
..Pact access and pact damage comes early in the game.. this could be pushed back.


The game deserves smart tweaks, not uneducated nerf batting.


Fix melee.. it is currently fuxed. a melee needs to be able to stand toe to toe without being one or two shotted.. they are 'melee' after all...
Fix tanks.. a tank needs to be able to take a beating with minimal smart cures.. not yo-yo spam heals.. or rez cakes...flatten out that PRR curve for armored melee.. higher damage mitigation is needed.
Tanks need real damage mitigation.. standing stances that increase DR/PRR/MRR while stationary...
Melee DPS in Reaper.. something needs to be done here.. the melee reaper tree is weaksauce.. amp it up.. increments of +1 Melee Power/action point .. really.. pft... pathetic..


Cleric pass..
Cerics are supposed to be the walking destroyers of undead not just nanny booboo bandaid dispensers and rez spammers.
Serious revamp to turn undead..
Necro enhancement tree like wizard pale masters..
Temp HP spells/SLA's, regen spells, .. worthy spells, not left over garbage like 'mass aid' that died when endgame was level 12...
remove spell caps from healer spells.
Have the Temp HP be the same type as warlock Temp HP so it doesn't stack for them.
add enhancements for divines to add caster level/meta's to scrolls
NPC scrolls used to be part of the healer cycle of casting.. up through level 16.. now healers are left sucking mana pots to try and keep up..


Blue bars in general should have better access to mana regenning (without relying on DDO store mana pots and shrines)
.. its a big part in why Warlocks are so favorable.. they can keep contributing long after the mana bar is gone...
better regen options for blue bars for caster classes based on caster levels.. amp up the Echoes of Power by caster level..
perhaps enhancements/spells/sla's for draining mana from mobs..
conc-op doesn't hold up .. some better upgraded versions are long past due..
yeah yeah sure DDO store pots generate money.. until they don't .. when players TR out of sucky classes because no one wants to play a money pit class.
..change the 'Lost Souls' SP drop to be usable by everyone, not just the first sob to grab them.. adjust drop rate to compensate..

Could not have said it better myself... +1

Seriously, if Locks were OP at endgame then yes a nerf is called for but if they're just OP while leveling through heroics and some EE content it's nuts for SSG to nerf that.

Endgame IS leveling (what an oxymoron)... It's a sad truth that there is no more "endgame" anymore. But that's a discussion for another thread.

[TedSandyman]

It takes knowledge to build a warlock to anywhere near their potential, and if you don't have that knowledge they are only marginally better (if that) than any other class.

I've played warlock and it takes next to nothing other than a few common sense decisions to make them far more overpowered than you can do with anything else. And if someone knows what they are doing it goes from being ridiculously overpowered to stupendously, ridiculously overpowered. Yeah, you can mess them up but you almost have to be trying to mess them up.

I made a pally/warlock, walked around with my aura running and not blasting anything and was still getting complaints about killing everything.I've seen some first lifers gunk up a warlock. But far and away most just put everyone to shame. It absolutely makes the game not worth playing unless you are playing warlock. If you get in a party with a decently built one and you may as well just pike.

And why? Why do you want to just kill everything instantly. It's like some five year old's idea of fun. Design a game where you walk in a room and everyting dies. Weeeeeeee. I'm winning. Why don't they just make it so warlock blasts just kill the entire dungeon so we can walk around and pick up the loot. That is essentially what most of us non warlocks end up doing anyway.

And it really is indefensible. If you think in your screwed up logic that it isn't a problem, you just have not been playing this game. Look around at the number of warlocks being played. Look at the LFMS and all the high reaper levels, almost all have 2 or 3 warlocks. Look at the number of kills they almost always have compared to anyone else. Yeah occasionally someone will kill more, but not often. Probably just when the Warlock started feeling bad and quits really trying.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Don't like Warlock? Don't play one.

Keep your broken brain and it's stupid thoughts out of my business.

It is NONE of your business how I play or what I play.

Get better at classes you like.

IT IS A SEROUS PROBLEM WITH HUMANS WHO THINK LIKE THIS.

Stop comparing and judging.

It REALLY is a bad look and POOR FORM.