A Decent Proposal

[slarden]

At the very least make it so you can 'hold', say, 5 levels worth of XP?

This would add a lot of flexibility when forming groups and people with different schedules can still play together at level and simply progress as a group at the pace of the slowest player?

What do you think?

-JR

I like the original proposal which lets people bank more xp so they can continue to group with friends. This is also an issue for people using exp potions playing with friends that are not. Xp tomes, VIP and even deaths also contribute to this problem.

[Mellkor]

You start off by saying you are running Racial then you bring Reaper into it, so which is it you are running as both have different values ie

If you are running Racial then then the old Elite is no problem or run Reaper1 and don't worry about the reaper xp penalty which is what a lot of pugs on Khyber are doing just for the additional 120% xp with RXP being a bonus

The reasons why I am running quests is irrelevant to my point. I am sorry if this caused confusion. My point is people who want to run reaper need to find a group within a very narrow range of levels compared to before the update, making it even more difficult to find groups, or staying on an even keel with fiends and/or guildmates who want to run together despite different playing habits.

The ability to 'hold' 5 or more levels would go a long way to making this issue a lot easier to manage. I cannot tell you how many times people had to leave one of my groups because they had to take a level that would put us into a penalty for the level of quests we were doing at the time. People are doing this because of these penalties. It is detrimental to the game because it discourages grouping. IMO my idea would help encourage groups to stay together longer. Much longer.

I think we can all agree things that make grouping more user-friendly would be a great improvement for the game. Especially one built on a foundation that requires social interaction with a group of people.

[EllisDee37]

I think you may be confused. A level 8 quest on reaper 1 will say "level 10" in the quest window when you start the quest, but it is still a level 8 quest.

No, it's not. For example, if you run Shadow Crypt on reaper, you get tier 3 collectables, which drop in quests level 11-15. Clearly it's not a level 9 quest on reaper or you would get Tier 2 collectables.

[slarden]

No, it's not. For example, if you run Shadow Crypt on reaper, you get tier 3 collectables, which drop in quests level 11-15. Clearly it's not a level 9 quest on reaper or you would get Tier 2 collectables.

None of that really matters. All that matters is that for reaper xp purposes the quest level is the actual level of the quest shown in the adventure compendium. The fact that loot and collectibles drop at better rates is a bonus, but has nothing to do with reaper xp. If people are able to figure out the level that certain collectibles drop they should be able to figure out which quests grant max rxp for a given character level.

[EllisDee37]

None of that really matters. All that matters is that for reaper xp purposes the quest level is the actual level of the quest shown in the adventure compendium. The fact that loot and collectibles drop at better rates is a bonus, but has nothing to do with reaper xp. If people are able to figure out the level that certain collectibles drop they should be able to figure out which quests grant max rxp for a given character level.

Understood.

But it's inarguable that the actual quest level is what is shown in the quest xp report. People seem to be trying to say that no, the actual quest level is 2 levels under that, and the quest xp report, collectable drops and chest levels are somehow "wrong." They aren't wrong. The idea that the "real" quest level is two under the xp report listing is simply not correct.

The reaper penalty formula isn't based on the actual quest level, it's arbitrarily based on quest level -2. You've argued that people are completing so it's fine, but why is -2 the magic number? Why is -2 better than -3? Or -4? Isn't the point to increase challenge? Isn't basing it on -2 a total easy button compared to -4?

What is the reasoning that -2 is better than -3 for the reaper baseline?

[slarden]

Understood.

But it's inarguable that the actual quest level is what is shown in the quest xp report. People seem to be trying to say that no, the actual quest level is 2 levels under that, and the quest xp report, collectable drops and chest levels are somehow "wrong." They aren't wrong. The idea that the "real" quest level is two under the xp report listing is simply not correct.

The reaper penalty formula isn't based on the actual quest level, it's arbitrarily based on quest level -2. You've argued that people are completing so it's fine, but why is -2 the magic number? Why is -2 better than -3? Or -4? Isn't the point to increase challenge? Isn't basing it on -2 a total easy button compared to -4?

What is the reasoning that -2 is better than -3 for the reaper baseline?

There is only one Actual quest level which can be found here and in the adventure compendium:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Quests_by_level

The reaper penalty formula IS based on actual quest level and not adjusted quest level. Adjusted quest level applies to xp for hard and elite difficulty only. It also applies to things like loot and collectibles which is nice for those of us running reaper so we don't get less rewards than elite. Reaper gives a +2 level bonus for loot and collectibles.

I am not sure what argument you are talking about. My only argument is that there is no reason to make reaper easier because there is no problem with reaper being too hard.

If you want to change it so it's required to run a level 10 quest at level 8 to get full rxp you should start a thread on that topic. Not a single person besides yourself mentioned that. It has nothing to do with this thread which is about banking xp so people can run together longer even if they are earning xp at different rates due to potions, tomes, vip status, deaths, etc.

[Avantasian]

This is not correct. Running a level 10 character through any level 10 quest on any reaper skull level does not incur a penalty. (if it is the first time you are running it, repeat penalty(s) apply after the first run through).

I think you may be confused. A level 8 quest on reaper 1 will say "level 10" in the quest window when you start the quest, but it is still a level 8 quest. In this case there is indeed, a rather harsh penalty. (as should be IMO, in this case).

The willful ignorance required to see that it's level 10 in every aspect and clearly spelled out as level 10 on atleast 2 places ingame and still conclude that is level 8. Just wow.

[EllisDee37]

There is only one Actual quest level which can be found here and in the adventure compendium:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Quests_by_level

The reaper penalty formula IS based on actual quest level and not adjusted quest level.

The adjusted quest level is the actual quest level. You're talking about base quest level, which is a different thing.

[EllisDee37]

I am not sure what argument you are talking about. My only argument is that there is no reason to make reaper easier because there is no problem with reaper being too hard.

What they should do is base reaper off the actual quest level, as shown in the xp report and the level that dictates collectables and chest loot. In other words, make it use the same measure that everything else in the game uses.

At the same time, they should increase reaper difficulty to compensate.

[Avantasian]

None of this is complicated or hard to figure out.

Complicated enough to confuse you, for sure.

None of this is causing any grouping issues on Sarlona.

It is causing grouping issus on Thelanis.
It's a bad mechanic because it disallows smoothly changing between reaper and elite. It separates people who are running the exact same content. It's confusing and arbitrary.
It's inconsistent with other mechanics.

If you want to make the quests easier to run just keep begging on the forums and maybe the devs will see it your way and make it easier. I don't see a reason with people gaining more power from reaper trees and more power from racial lifes.

It's not about making the game easier. Make reaper harder or nerf the reaper trees to compensate, I don't mind. Difficulty can always be constructed, it's far more important to make sure the game mechanics are sound first. This one isn't.

[slarden]

Complicated enough to confuse you, for sure.

You are making up nonsense again...

What they should do is base reaper off the actual quest level, as shown in the xp report and the level that dictates collectables and chest loot. In other words, make it use the same measure that everything else in the game uses.

At the same time, they should increase reaper difficulty to compensate.

It's hard to compensate since part of the power increase from level ups has to do with spell availability, feats and gear available. If you run a level 10 quest on reaper as a level 10 character you wouldn't have min level 11/12 greensteel available, but you would as a level 12 character. The same is true of certain feats and enhancements with a minimum level. Running the vale quests as a level 18 cleric and wizard means wail of the banshee, energy drain and implosion are in play. Running it with a level 16 character means level 9 spells are not in play.

For me it's meant an old dog having to learn knew tricks as I already mastered beating level 16 quest with level 18 characters literally HUNDREDS of times. I hope they don't change it and make it easier.

If you prefer the word "Base" quest level that's fine. They should require base level and character level the same for full xp in reaper as it is now.

[Avantasian]

You are making up nonsense again...

No. You can't even adress it. The actual level of a quest which all elements that regards quest level has been based on for 11 years is clearly stated on the quest window and the xp-panel. Overlevel penalty was already a thing before reaper, and you can guess what that is based on, the actual level of the quest.

I get that you don't want things to become easier, but trying to spin things as though this mechanic is consistent and makes sense with the rest of the game just makes you come off as a liar.
Ignoring the myraids of problems this is causing doesnt help that image.

[slarden]

No. You can't even adress it. The actual level of a quest which all elements that regards quest level has been based on for 11 years is clearly stated on the quest window and the xp-panel. Overlevel penalty was already a thing before reaper, and you can guess what that is based on, the actual level of the quest.

I get that you don't want things to become easier, but trying to spin things as though this mechanic is consistent and makes sense with the rest of the game just makes you come off as a liar.
Ignoring the myraids of problems this is causing doesnt help that image.

As I stated very simply several times the base quest level is listed here:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Quests_by_level

If you run these quests and your character level is not > than the level listed in the list you will get full rxp. Everything I've said is true to the best of my knowledge and I have no reason to believe it's wrong based on any responses I've seen.

There are no problems. If someone is capable of running reaper they should be capable of understanding 3 extremely simple things
- base quest level
- character level
- character level must be <= base quest level for full rxp

[Renvar]

I can't believe people are still bickering about the difference between base quest level and actual quest level. Reaper XP calcuation is the only thing in the game that works off of base quest level. Everything else works off of the actual quest level (which is +1 level higher than the base level on hard and +2 levels higher than the base level on elite and reaper).

I have no idea why SSG thought it made sense to alter something that is uniform and consistent across the game. When asked "Why is reaper using a different level calculation than every other thing in the game" The only explanation given was "Reaper is it's own thing." Which is like answering the question "Why is the sky blue?" with "Because it is the sky."

The problem with the change from actual quest level to base quest level for XP determination is that it messes up the leveling progression. With running Elite on a heroic character you can do the following:

(Starting at level 10, for simplicity)

Run BASE level 10 quests at level 12 for full bonuses and XP while having enough XP to take 13, but "holding" the level. So you are, effectively a level 13 character running base level 10 quests for full XP. Play that out:
14 runs base 11 quests
15 runs base 12 quests
16 runs base 13 quests
17 runs base 14 quests
18 runs base 15 quests
19 runs base 16 quests
Capped. This is the years long method of finishing the game as a level 18 character, banking 19, running the vale and LoD chain. You have all the level 17 base, level 18 base, and level 19 base quests that you don't really need to cap. Because of this, you can actually choose to run quests earlier if you want. Going back to BASE level 10 quests, you can run them while you are level 11 (holding 12) or level 10 (holding 11).

Those give you the following progressions as you move forward:
12 runs base 10 quests (this is the level 11, holding 12)
13 runs base 11 quests
14 runs base 12 quests
15 runs base 13 quests
16 runs base 14 quests
17 runs base 15 quests
18 runs base 16 quests
19 runs base 17 quests

11 runs base 10 quests (this is the level 10, holding 11)
12 runs base 11 quests
13 runs base 12 quests
14 runs base 13 quests
15 runs base 14 quests
16 runs base 15 quests
17 runs base 16 quests
18 runs base 17 quests
19 runs base 18 quests

As you can see, you still have quests to run at every level to progress. You can even be level 9 (holding 10) or level 10, not holding any levels and progress just fine in the old system. You get full bonuses and have quests that take you to cap while never having to run quests for a penalty.

10 runs base 10 quests (this is the level 9, holding 10 or just level 10 not holding a level)
11 runs base 11 quests
12 runs base 12 quests
13 runs base 13 quests
...
19 runs base 19 quests

BUT in the new reaper xp world, to get full XP, you have to run at BASE quest level. Now, you can be holding a level. So you can do this:

11 runs base 10 quests (this is the level 10, holding 11)
12 runs base 11 quests
13 runs base 12 quests
14 runs base 13 quests
15 runs base 14 quests
16 runs base 15 quests
17 runs base 16 quests
18 runs base 17 quests
19 runs base 18 quests

or you can do this:

10 runs base 10 quests (this is the level 9, holding 10 or just level 10 not holding a level)
11 runs base 11 quests
12 runs base 12 quests
13 runs base 13 quests
...
19 runs base 19 quests

But, if you start running BASE level 10 quests any earlier than this you run into the following problem:

9 runs base 10 quests (this is the level 8, holding 9 or just level 9 not holding a level)
10 runs base 11 quests
11 runs base 12 quests
12 runs base 13 quests
...
18 runs base 19 quests

What happens at level 19? You can't run level 20 quests until you are level 20. So, if you used all the level 19 quests to get from level 18-19, what do you use for that last 300kish of XP? You have to use adventure areas (some of which you may have used earlier at "weak" content levels) or rerun lower level content for diminishing returns. Certainly YOU CAN LEVEL THIS WAY. It is just inefficient and slow. (and repetitive. Not in a good XP/min way). And we know that players will find and almost exclusively use the optimal or near optimal paths and shun the slow and inefficient paths. They will do repetition if it is efficient, but generally dislike repetition that is not efficient.

The end result of the change:

When running elite, you can have a level range of 9-12 on BASE level 10 quests and get full XP and bonuses in a part of other 9-12 players. Everyone could do this and not have content problems later on when leveling.

When running reaper, you can only be a level 9-10 running base level 10 quests. Although level 7 or level 8 characters could run the BASE 10 quests with you reaper without incurring a power leveling penalty, them doing so creates a problem for them at levels 18-19 where they have run out of content because they are running things 1-2 levels early. So it is extremely inefficient for them to do so. And not in their best interest.
And that assumes a level 7 or 8 character will be as capable and efficient in Reaper on a base 10 quest (effective level 12 on elite). Chances are, their time to complete will also be negatively effected in those runs. They are better off running content closer to their current level.

So, you have shrunk the level range for LFM's in half by changing to the base level XP curve in Reaper so that "Reaper is it's own thing". Which limits social/group functions in a social/grouping game. I think that SSG forgot that priority 1 in an MMO is not challenge. Priority 1 is right there in the name "Massively Multiplayer". If all a player wants is challenging gameplay, they can get that from any game out there. What makes an MMO unique, their market differentiator (so to speak), is the ability to play with other players. All decisions should be made with this in mind. Don't betray your core value proposition when implementing new features.

Sorry for the TL;DR.

P.S.

Tony Stark, in Avengers: "An intelligence organization that fears intelligence. Historically, Not awesome."

Paraphrased: "A multiplayer game that creates systems that limits multiplayer play. Historically, Not awesome."

[Kylstrem]

You start off by saying you are running Racial then you bring Reaper into it, so which is it you are running as both have different values ie

If you are running Racial then then the old Elite is no problem or run Reaper1 and don't worry about the reaper xp penalty which is what a lot of pugs on Khyber are doing just for the additional 120% xp with RXP being a bonus

he didn't say his exclusive reason for running racial was just for the racials past lives.

If you are planning on getting the 30 racial past lives and doing that grind, then many people are going to gravitate towards a similar goal of also trying to get as much reaper XP while accomplishing the first goal.

And when they do that, they will want to run the quests to maximize reaper XP.
People that don't care at all about reaper XP will likely be doing the "normal" elite streaking.

The reaper XP "maximizers" are not going to want to take the 50% penalty to Reaper XP that the "old" elite streaking would give you.

and as this thread shows, there are still many who can't figure out how the Reaper XP penalty actually functions.


here's an example.
Old Elite Streak:
I'm a level 9 Warlock and I'm on an elite streak. Usually, when I hit level 9, I would starting doing level 7 quests on elite (making those quests "effective" level of 9. Quests that would normally be run a this time are:

• The Pit
• Tear of Dhakaan
• Gwylan's Stand

All those quests are base level 7, but level 9 on elite.

Now if was doing those on Reaper, it would still qualify for the elite streak, but as I did them I would be getting a 50% penalty to the Reaper XP since I was level 9 and the base level was 7 (effective level 9).

New Reaper Streak stratagem (at least the way I'm doing it)
When I hit level 7, then I do those base level quests on Reaper 1 to avoid the Reaper XP penalty for being overlevel.
So, at level 7, I'm doing the Pit on Reaper. The quest's effective level becomes 9 when I step in on Reaper. Elite streak is still intact and I avoid the reaper overlevel penalty.

[Avantasian]

As I stated very simply several times the base quest level is listed here:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Quests_by_level

If you run these quests and your character level is not > than the level listed in the list you will get full rxp. Everything I've said is true to the best of my knowledge and I have no reason to believe it's wrong based on any responses I've seen.

That is not a list of the level of quests on reaper difficulty.
The fact is that if you run a level 10 quest on reaper with a level 10 character you get a 50% exp penalty. That said quest has a base level of 8 listed on some web page is completely irrelevant to that, which is proven by the fact that every single element that regards to quest level up until now is not based on that web page and it has been that way for the entire lifetime of the game.

You must surely see that you are just trying to rationalize it. Your position would be far more credible if you accepted these facts and admited that there are problems but simply said that despite all that the upsides outweigh the downsides.

There are no problems. If someone is capable of running reaper they should be capable of understanding 3 extremely simple things
- base quest level
- character level
- character level must be <= base quest level for full rxp

That it is possible to figure a mechanic out does not mean that said mechanic is good or have no problems. You are not even attempting to adress the problem that has been cited because you know that you have nothing to say.

I've had party members kicked, have had to leave groups myself and been unable to play with friends all due to this mechanic that makes no sense to being with. So you are simply incorrect that there are no problems.

[Mellkor]

wow, I can't believe the arguing over what level a quest is. There are only 2 possibilities:

1: the level of the quest as listed in the quest compendium and in the links provided. This is the definition I, and almost everyone else in the game uses. For some reason some here choose to ignore the links to what DDO defines as level 10 quests when they are kindly provided for them to look at. The quest compendium quest level never changes regardless of what the "actual quest level" was at the time of running it.


2: then there are bonus quest level(s) with added benefits already mentioned, for hard, elite, or reaper difficulties that show up in the quest window when you select a harder difficulty. This shows up in the compendium as completed on one of the following: hard or elite. Some people call these bonus levels "actual quest level".

No one I know in the game EVER uses the term "level 10 quests" (for example) to mean level 8 quests on elite or level 8 quests on any reaper difficulty, OR to mean level 9 quests on hard. They mean the Level 10 quests listed in the quest compendium or in the link already provided.

Please stop derailing this thread over the use of "quest level" used in a way that is extremely rarely used by a very tiny minority.
I am trying to have a civilized conversation about this issue.
If you have nothing to contribute regarding the issue discussed in the OP, or are unable or unwilling to participate in a respectful manner, please move along.

Thanks.

[Mellkor]

When running reaper, you can only be a level 9-10 running base level 10 quests. Although level 7 or level 8 characters could run the BASE 10 quests with you reaper without incurring a power leveling penalty, them doing so creates a problem for them at levels 18-19 where they have run out of content because they are running things 1-2 levels early. So it is extremely inefficient for them to do so. And not in their best interest.
And that assumes a level 7 or 8 character will be as capable and efficient in Reaper on a base 10 quest (effective level 12 on elite). Chances are, their time to complete will also be negatively effected in those runs. They are better off running content closer to their current level.

So, you have shrunk the level range for LFM's in half by changing to the base level XP curve in Reaper so that "Reaper is it's own thing". Which limits social/group functions in a social/grouping game. I think that SSG forgot that priority 1 in an MMO is not challenge. Priority 1 is right there in the name "Massively Multiplayer". If all a player wants is challenging gameplay, they can get that from any game out there. What makes an MMO unique, their market differentiator (so to speak), is the ability to play with other players. All decisions should be made with this in mind. Don't betray your core value proposition when implementing new features.

Exactly! Well said.

With one caveat, I have not had the issue of running out of quests at 18 or 19 even if I run stuff too early. There is more than enough quests to cap by going "one and done". I have been able to run at level quests or even at one over, and still be able to get to 20 by not repeating quests. And even if this did come up, I would guess it wouldn't take to much repeating on elite to cap out.

[Avantasian]

wow, I can't believe the arguing over what level a quest is. There are only 2 possibilities:

1: the level of the quest as listed in the compendium and in the links provided. This is the definition I, and almost everyone else in the game uses. For some reason some here choose to ignore the links to what DDO defines as level 10 quests when they are kindly provided for them to look at.

2: then there are bonus quest level(s) for hard, elite, or reaper that show up in the quest window when you select a harder difficulty.

No one I know in the game EVER uses the term "level 10 quests" (for example) to mean level 8 quests on elite or level 8 quests on any reaper difficulty, OR to mean level 9 quests on hard. They mean the Level 10 quests listed in the link already provided.

Please stop derailing this thread over the use of "quest level" used in a way that is extremely rarely used by a very tiny minority.
I am trying to have a civilized conversation about this issue.
If you have nothing to contribute regarding the issue discussed in the OP, or are unable or unwilling to participate in a respectful manner, please move along.

Thanks.

Every single other mechanic in the game that is based on quest level, even underlevel penalty, is based on the actual quest level. Stating this is not a derailment, it shows how inconsistent the reaper system is and that you do infact get a penalty for being the same level as the quest you are running.
Proponents of the system should admit that. That they are trying to spin it shows how weak their position is.

[Kylstrem]

That is not a list of the level of quests on reaper difficulty.
The fact is that if you run a level 10 quest on reaper with a level 10 character you get a 50% exp penalty. That said quest has a base level of 8 listed on some web page is completely irrelevant to that, which is proven by the fact that every single element that regards to quest level up until now is not based on that web page and it has been that way for the entire lifetime of the game.

You must surely see that you are just trying to rationalize it. Your position would be far more credible if you accepted these facts and admited that there are problems but simply said that despite all that the upsides outweigh the downsides.

That it is possible to figure a mechanic out does not mean that said mechanic is good or have no problems. You are not even attempting to adress the problem that has been cited because you know that you have nothing to say.

I've had party members kicked, have had to leave groups myself and been unable to play with friends all due to this mechanic that makes no sense to being with. So you are simply incorrect that there are no problems.

Are you just trying to "win" an internet debate by quibbling over semantics?

I think everyone here agrees that if SSG would just change the reaper penalties to be based on the quest level at the chosen difficulty instead of the "base/normal level" everything would be better and less confusing.
No one is overlooking that are "not attempting to address that problem".

The OP has proposed a possible solution that takes into account that SSG is likely not going to change the Reaper penalty basis.

The thread would not have been started if SSG based the reaper penalty on the level of the quest it is determined to be upon entering it.

So, to get you to stop banging your head against a wall.

1) I think almost everyone agrees the Reaper XP penalty system Turbine/SSG put in place makes things very confusing and is not consistent with previous design decisions.
2) If Turbine won't fix #1 by making it consistent with past design decision, OP has suggested an alternative.
3) This discussion would be much more profitable if you would stick to debating his alternative rather than trying debate #1.