Dear Devs - Spring Attack as a Martial Arts Feat ?

[Gargoyle69]

Dear Devs,

Monk's Martial Arts feats are quite front-loaded ie they get them at low levels, and since Flurry of Blows doesn't actually count as Full BAB for purposes of Feats Pre-Requisites, often a monk is in the position of having excess feat slots at low levels that they don't have sufficient BAB to qualify for what they would like to take, and then a shortage at later heroic levels, which can be quite frustrating. In many cases, unarmed monks go for the whirlwind line, and 5 feats, 13 Dex and 13 Int is a pretty steep investment, taking up a lot of the early feats, so it would be great if we could make taking those feats a little more workable.

Dodge, Mobility and Combat Expertise are all Martial Arts feats, which Monks get at levels 1, 2 and 6. However, Spring Attack is not currently considered a Martial Arts feat, and requires a BAB of 4, which monks get at Level 6 (as I mentioned, since Flurry doesn't count). What this currently means is that even though monks get a martial arts feat at level 6, and have BAB of 4, they currently cannot take Spring Attack as that bonus Martial Arts feat, and must use their normal level 6 feat to get it, and pick up something else with their martial arts feat.

This then leads to a cascade of pushing everything later than it needs to be. If they wish to get Whirlwind Attack, they cannot take it at L6 when they qualify for it, they must wait until their next feat at L9. But at L9 their BAB is +6, and they qualify for Imp TWF, however they cannot take it at L9 if they want Whirlwind Attack, so they must wait until L12. But at L12 their BAB is +9 and they qualify for Imp Crit, however they cannot take it at L12 if they want Imp TWF, so they must wait until L15. But at L15 their BAB is +11 and they qualify for Greater TWF, but they cannot take it at L15 if they want Imp Crit, so they must wait until L18 .... on and on it goes. It's .... clunky.

So, as a solution I propose this: no changes to the number of feats monks get, no changes to the levels they get them at, no changes to the pre-requisites of feats, no changes to anything at all except one thing: add Spring Attack to the list of Martial Arts feats.

This would then mean that a Monk wishing to go down the unarmed + Whirlwind attack route, could take Dodge, Mobility & Combat Expertise with any 3 of the feats they get by level 3 (2 Martial Arts feats at levels 1 & 2, and 2 normal feats at levels 1 & 3), and then take Spring Attack with their Level 6 MA feat, and then Whirlwind Attack with their Level 6 normal feat. They could then take iTWF when they qualify for it at L9, Imp Crit when they qualify for it at L12, and gTWF when they qualify for it at L15.

This streamlines the entire process and avoids the unpleasant cascade of pushing everything later and lets monks take the feats they would want to take when they qualify for them.

It also fits thematically too: Dodge, Mobility & Spring Attack are all very much in the theme of martial arts, are all related by virtue of all giving dodge bonuses, and are all in a pre-requisite sequence, making them ideally suited to being the 3 bonus martial arts feats that a monk takes in his training.

To me, this is an extremely elegant solution to a cludgy situation which I feel would be (hopefully?) something that would be extraordinarily easy to implement and would also hopefully fall within the purview of something you could consider as part of the monk pass.

Could you please review this idea and consider whether it would be something you could include ? I'd love any thoughts you may be able to provide one way or the other.

Many thanks in advance for your consideration.

[Alisonique]

Dear Devs,

Monk's Martial Arts feats are quite front-loaded ie they get them at low levels, and since Flurry of Blows doesn't actually count as Full BAB for purposes of Feats Pre-Requisites, often a monk is in the position of having excess feat slots at low levels that they don't have sufficient BAB to qualify for what they would like to take, and then a shortage at later heroic levels, which can be quite frustrating. In many cases, unarmed monks go for the whirlwind line, and 5 feats, 13 Dex and 13 Int is a pretty steep investment, taking up a lot of the early feats, so it would be great if we could make taking those feats a little more workable.

Dodge, Mobility and Combat Expertise are all Martial Arts feats, which Monks get at levels 1, 2 and 6. However, Spring Attack is not currently considered a Martial Arts feat, and requires a BAB of 4, which monks get at Level 6 (as I mentioned, since Flurry doesn't count). What this currently means is that even though monks get a martial arts feat at level 6, and have BAB of 4, they currently cannot take Spring Attack as that bonus Martial Arts feat, and must use their normal level 6 feat to get it, and pick up something else with their martial arts feat.

This then leads to a cascade of pushing everything later than it needs to be. If they wish to get Whirlwind Attack, they cannot take it at L6 when they qualify for it, they must wait until their next feat at L9. But at L9 their BAB is +6, and they qualify for Imp TWF, however they cannot take it at L9 if they want Whirlwind Attack, so they must wait until L12. But at L12 their BAB is +9 and they qualify for Imp Crit, however they cannot take it at L12 if they want Imp TWF, so they must wait until L15. But at L15 their BAB is +11 and they qualify for Greater TWF, but they cannot take it at L15 if they want Imp Crit, so they must wait until L18 .... on and on it goes. It's .... clunky.

So, as a solution I propose this: no changes to the number of feats monks get, no changes to the levels they get them at, no changes to the pre-requisites of feats, no changes to anything at all except one thing: add Spring Attack to the list of Martial Arts feats.

This would then mean that a Monk wishing to go down the unarmed + Whirlwind attack route, could take Dodge, Mobility & Combat Expertise with any 3 of the feats they get by level 3 (2 Martial Arts feats at levels 1 & 2, and 2 normal feats at levels 1 & 3), and then take Spring Attack with their Level 6 MA feat, and then Whirlwind Attack with their Level 6 normal feat. They could then take iTWF when they qualify for it at L9, Imp Crit when they qualify for it at L12, and gTWF when they qualify for it at L15.

This streamlines the entire process and avoids the unpleasant cascade of pushing everything later and lets monks take the feats they would want to take when they qualify for them.

It also fits thematically too: Dodge, Mobility & Spring Attack are all very much in the theme of martial arts, are all related by virtue of all giving dodge bonuses, and are all in a pre-requisite sequence, making them ideally suited to being the 3 bonus martial arts feats that a monk takes in his training.

To me, this is an extremely elegant solution to a cludgy situation which I feel would be (hopefully?) something that would be extraordinarily easy to implement and would also hopefully fall within the purview of something you could consider as part of the monk pass.

Could you please review this idea and consider whether it would be something you could include ? I'd love any thoughts you may be able to provide one way or the other.

Many thanks in advance for your consideration.

Signed.

[Kantia]

Sounds sensible to me!

/agree

[Paisheng]

Dear Devs,

Monk's Martial Arts feats are quite front-loaded ie they get them at low levels, and since Flurry of Blows doesn't actually count as Full BAB for purposes of Feats Pre-Requisites, often a monk is in the position of having excess feat slots at low levels that they don't have sufficient BAB to qualify for what they would like to take, and then a shortage at later heroic levels, which can be quite frustrating. In many cases, unarmed monks go for the whirlwind line, and 5 feats, 13 Dex and 13 Int is a pretty steep investment, taking up a lot of the early feats, so it would be great if we could make taking those feats a little more workable.

Dodge, Mobility and Combat Expertise are all Martial Arts feats, which Monks get at levels 1, 2 and 6. However, Spring Attack is not currently considered a Martial Arts feat, and requires a BAB of 4, which monks get at Level 6 (as I mentioned, since Flurry doesn't count). What this currently means is that even though monks get a martial arts feat at level 6, and have BAB of 4, they currently cannot take Spring Attack as that bonus Martial Arts feat, and must use their normal level 6 feat to get it, and pick up something else with their martial arts feat.

This then leads to a cascade of pushing everything later than it needs to be. If they wish to get Whirlwind Attack, they cannot take it at L6 when they qualify for it, they must wait until their next feat at L9. But at L9 their BAB is +6, and they qualify for Imp TWF, however they cannot take it at L9 if they want Whirlwind Attack, so they must wait until L12. But at L12 their BAB is +9 and they qualify for Imp Crit, however they cannot take it at L12 if they want Imp TWF, so they must wait until L15. But at L15 their BAB is +11 and they qualify for Greater TWF, but they cannot take it at L15 if they want Imp Crit, so they must wait until L18 .... on and on it goes. It's .... clunky.

So, as a solution I propose this: no changes to the number of feats monks get, no changes to the levels they get them at, no changes to the pre-requisites of feats, no changes to anything at all except one thing: add Spring Attack to the list of Martial Arts feats.

This would then mean that a Monk wishing to go down the unarmed + Whirlwind attack route, could take Dodge, Mobility & Combat Expertise with any 3 of the feats they get by level 3 (2 Martial Arts feats at levels 1 & 2, and 2 normal feats at levels 1 & 3), and then take Spring Attack with their Level 6 MA feat, and then Whirlwind Attack with their Level 6 normal feat. They could then take iTWF when they qualify for it at L9, Imp Crit when they qualify for it at L12, and gTWF when they qualify for it at L15.

This streamlines the entire process and avoids the unpleasant cascade of pushing everything later and lets monks take the feats they would want to take when they qualify for them.

It also fits thematically too: Dodge, Mobility & Spring Attack are all very much in the theme of martial arts, are all related by virtue of all giving dodge bonuses, and are all in a pre-requisite sequence, making them ideally suited to being the 3 bonus martial arts feats that a monk takes in his training.

To me, this is an extremely elegant solution to a cludgy situation which I feel would be (hopefully?) something that would be extraordinarily easy to implement and would also hopefully fall within the purview of something you could consider as part of the monk pass.

Could you please review this idea and consider whether it would be something you could include ? I'd love any thoughts you may be able to provide one way or the other.

Many thanks in advance for your consideration.

Ditto this. And/or make Whirlwind a martial art feat as well.

[Zachski]

Makes sense to me - lots of wuxia films feature martial artists moving about while performing flawless martial arts. Sometimes moving through the air, too.

[Gargoyle69]

Signed.

Sounds sensible to me! /agree

Ditto this. And/or make Whirlwind a martial art feat as well.

Makes sense to me - lots of wuxia films feature martial artists moving about while performing flawless martial arts. Sometimes moving through the air, too.

Thanks guys.

Devs, any chance you could comment on the feasibility of this please ?

[Gargoyle69]

Shameless bump.

Re-requesting a dev response on if this could be considered please ?

[Sunnie]

Good suggestion, I'm all for it.

[Gargoyle69]

Time for a shameless necro now.....

Steel/Cordo/Sev - please could I get a response on this request ?

I'll even supply a few sample answer options and you can just copy-n-paste or just answer by choosing a letter:
a) "we'll think about it",
b) "we thought about it - no",
c) "we might think about it one day"
d) "hey you know, that's quite an elegant solution combined with a cogent argument, ok, done"
e) "no feats love for you !!"
f) "waddya fink this is - Christmas ?"
g) "monks, ptooey, die die die!!"
h) "sure, we're making ALL feats MA feats!"
i) "ok but only if you're a dragonborn monk"
j) "great idea but the game client would break into a million small pieces of unrecognizable bits & bytes and everyone would cry and it would all be your fault"

Choose an answer, any answer, hey why not choose a few ! :-)

Seriously though, any sort of answer would be very much appreciated.

[Steelstar]

A combination of D) and A):

"hey you know, that's quite an elegant solution combined with a cogent argument, we'll think about it"

[Paisheng]

A combination of D) and A):

"hey you know, that's quite an elegant solution combined with a cogent argument, we'll think about it"

Whoot! Whoot! Whoot!

And thanks for playing in Gargoyle69's reality monk game show (good job hosting gargoyle)

[Gargoyle69]

A combination of D) and A):

"hey you know, that's quite an elegant solution combined with a cogent argument, we'll think about it"

AWESOME !!!!

Thank you Steel :-)

[Steve_Howe]

Dear Devs,

Monk's Martial Arts feats are quite front-loaded ie they get them at low levels, and since Flurry of Blows doesn't actually count as Full BAB for purposes of Feats Pre-Requisites, often a monk is in the position of having excess feat slots at low levels that they don't have sufficient BAB to qualify for what they would like to take, and then a shortage at later heroic levels, which can be quite frustrating. In many cases, unarmed monks go for the whirlwind line, and 5 feats, 13 Dex and 13 Int is a pretty steep investment, taking up a lot of the early feats, so it would be great if we could make taking those feats a little more workable.

Dodge, Mobility and Combat Expertise are all Martial Arts feats, which Monks get at levels 1, 2 and 6. However, Spring Attack is not currently considered a Martial Arts feat, and requires a BAB of 4, which monks get at Level 6 (as I mentioned, since Flurry doesn't count). What this currently means is that even though monks get a martial arts feat at level 6, and have BAB of 4, they currently cannot take Spring Attack as that bonus Martial Arts feat, and must use their normal level 6 feat to get it, and pick up something else with their martial arts feat.

This then leads to a cascade of pushing everything later than it needs to be. If they wish to get Whirlwind Attack, they cannot take it at L6 when they qualify for it, they must wait until their next feat at L9. But at L9 their BAB is +6, and they qualify for Imp TWF, however they cannot take it at L9 if they want Whirlwind Attack, so they must wait until L12. But at L12 their BAB is +9 and they qualify for Imp Crit, however they cannot take it at L12 if they want Imp TWF, so they must wait until L15. But at L15 their BAB is +11 and they qualify for Greater TWF, but they cannot take it at L15 if they want Imp Crit, so they must wait until L18 .... on and on it goes. It's .... clunky.

So, as a solution I propose this: no changes to the number of feats monks get, no changes to the levels they get them at, no changes to the pre-requisites of feats, no changes to anything at all except one thing: add Spring Attack to the list of Martial Arts feats.

This would then mean that a Monk wishing to go down the unarmed + Whirlwind attack route, could take Dodge, Mobility & Combat Expertise with any 3 of the feats they get by level 3 (2 Martial Arts feats at levels 1 & 2, and 2 normal feats at levels 1 & 3), and then take Spring Attack with their Level 6 MA feat, and then Whirlwind Attack with their Level 6 normal feat. They could then take iTWF when they qualify for it at L9, Imp Crit when they qualify for it at L12, and gTWF when they qualify for it at L15.

This streamlines the entire process and avoids the unpleasant cascade of pushing everything later and lets monks take the feats they would want to take when they qualify for them.

It also fits thematically too: Dodge, Mobility & Spring Attack are all very much in the theme of martial arts, are all related by virtue of all giving dodge bonuses, and are all in a pre-requisite sequence, making them ideally suited to being the 3 bonus martial arts feats that a monk takes in his training.

To me, this is an extremely elegant solution to a cludgy situation which I feel would be (hopefully?) something that would be extraordinarily easy to implement and would also hopefully fall within the purview of something you could consider as part of the monk pass.

Could you please review this idea and consider whether it would be something you could include ? I'd love any thoughts you may be able to provide one way or the other.

Many thanks in advance for your consideration.

Makes perfect sense no matter how you look at it.

I say do it, Devs.

[FuzzyDuck81]

While we're at it, could trip & improved trip be amended to use the highest of STR & DEX for determining the DC? Logic being, strength based you're physically knocking the feet out from under them, dexterity based you're tangling them up instead? Similar to the reasoning above, the old leg-sweep is a classic martial arts tactic & it adds extra dynamic flow to the combat for monks, plus it'd also be a nice benefit for the acrobats who have special trip attacks but are designed to be more dex focused than strength, and rangers could get a nice boost from it too.

[DeltaBravo]

/Signed

Seems like a good idea.

[PermaBanned]

OP should be "stickied" or something as an example of how to propose game changes:

• Well thought out.
• Thoroughly explained.
• Well written & lacking insults.

Many forumites should learn from this.

[cdbd3rd]

OP should be "stickied" or something as an example of how to propose game changes:

• Well thought out.
• Thoroughly explained.
• Well written & lacking insults.

Many forumites should learn from this.

They could...

They should...

But,... Well, you know...


OP /signed, belatedly.

[Silverleafeon]

/signed

Spring Attack does seem very monk like.

[Arlathen]

With tomorrow's patch:

• Spring Attack is now a Monk Feat at level 6.

Congrats, OP

[Gargoyle69]

OMFG ! Woot !!

Thanks so much Steel, this will make a big difference to building & levelling unarmed WWA monks, you're awesome :-)