Warlock NERF Again

[slarden]

The point is for equally skilled players, some of the builds are just better than others.

The best way to see what a class can do is to see it solo.

Apparently you are among the only people who think assassins are good as the game stands. And you don't even play the game! So who is asking for the game to be "personally tailored to themselves"?

Play style is also a factor. Some people gravitate towards melees and others gravitate towards casters. Most people play both, but even so many have a play style they prefer.

I think it's a fool's game to try make all classes equal because most of the measures are subjective and much of the ranking depends on the content you run.

I disagree soloing should be the measure of class strength - it should be end game raids. The reason is that we've seen in the past where certain builds were rejected for raids - best example is arcane archer pre-U14. DPS was too low relative to other builds so in raids that once were a dps test like echrono you were a liability because it would take longer resulting more mana usage by healers and casters in general if people weren't pulling their weight. Nobody should be a liability in a raid.

Soloing it a choice, and one that is already well supported in the game. If someone wants to solo it's up to them to choose builds that work for soloing for their skill level (there are people that can solo on any reasonable build) and not Turbine's responsibility that every build works equally well for soloing.

Warlock Blasters are good but not great for LE raids. Blasters are clearly great for running quests with many mobs - who cares it's quests that any build can complete and nobody will be rejected from party due to their build.

[nokowi]

Apparently you are among the only people who think assassins are good as the game stands. And you don't even play the game! So who is asking for the game to be "personally tailored to themselves"?

I didn't ask for all classes to be changed to my preference. You did.

I say we should have a range of builds that meet the varying preferences of the players. Players are enjoying those B builds just fine. There are players that would be bored to tears on A builds. The game is just not that challenging.

You think we should design the game around you, and anyone with any other preference than you is selfish, apparently. Might be time for you to do some self reflection.

[BigErkyKid]

I didn't ask for all classes to be changed to my preference. You did.

I say we should have a range of builds that meet the varying preferences of the players. Players are enjoying those B builds just fine. There are players that would be bored to tears on A builds. The game is just not that challenging.

You think we should design the game around you, and anyone with any other preference than you is selfish, apparently. Might be time for you to do some self reflection.

I am not the one repeating like a mantra: "you want the game tailored exclusively to you, everything is fine". So...

Im going to take Van's advise and eject from this thread. It has run its course.

[nokowi]

It most certainly would not be prove of that. By your own description, you are a top player. So if I or any other regular player failed to take advantage of the power disparity, this would not mean anything. The point is for equally skilled players, some of the builds are just better than others.

Yes, and players enjoy having the choice to play a build with the power level they enjoy.

The best way to see what a class can do is to see it solo.

That's the best way to see the best soloing class, which was not your argument.

So maybe they are telling you something, by choosing not to play it?

Yes, others have different preferences than me. Something I've been trying to educate you about.

Choice? If I give you a bad option and a good option, is this a choice?

Bad for you is good for me. At a young age (~6), we learn that other people have feelings different than our own.

Apparently you are among the only people who think assassins are good as the game stands. And you don't even play the game! So who is asking for the game to be "personally tailored to themselves"?

We have 3 in this thread. Go count them. Ignoring information again?

[Forzah]

No, everyone needs to learn to play the portion of the game that actually meets their preferences and that others have different preferences, instead of this incessant demand that every quest, every aspect of the game be personally tailored to themselves.

I think it has also to do with the degree people prefer the status quo.

If the game was perfectly balanced from the start, people with high preference for the status quo would defend that version of the game just as they defend the current game, and likely be as happy with it as they are now. This type of conditioning is annoyingly arbitrary and it unnecessarily blocks progress.

[nokowi]

I think it has also to do with the degree people prefer the status quo.

If the game was perfectly balanced from the start, people with high preference for the status quo would defend that version of the game just as they defend the current game, and likely be as happy with it as they are now. This type of conditioning is annoyingly arbitrary and it unnecessarily blocks progress.

I don't follow what you are saying here.

Who in this thread do you believe has a high preference for the status quo?

[Forzah]

I don't follow what you are saying here.

Who in this thread do you believe has a high preference for the status quo?

When posting that I didn't have a particular person in mind, more of a group mentality.

I guess it's more of a philosophical point. I'm just wondering how much value should be given to preferences if they are formed in this way.

[guitrdave1]

That nerf was quite a while ago: U28.1, apparently. So, uhh, welcome back from your year-long hiatus, I guess?

hey unbongwah, what's the best MELEE warlock build? I like playing a solo guards-tank dwarf w/con to damage but am open to anything. Multiclass is ok too. I am 32 point and have decent gear. Thanks in advance.

[Angelic-council]

Play style is also a factor. Some people gravitate towards melees and others gravitate towards casters. Most people play both, but even so many have a play style they prefer.

I think it's a fool's game to try make all classes equal because most of the measures are subjective and much of the ranking depends on the content you run.

I disagree soloing should be the measure of class strength - it should be end game raids. The reason is that we've seen in the past where certain builds were rejected for raids - best example is arcane archer pre-U14. DPS was too low relative to other builds so in raids that once were a dps test like echrono you were a liability because it would take longer resulting more mana usage by healers and casters in general if people weren't pulling their weight. Nobody should be a liability in a raid.

Soloing it a choice, and one that is already well supported in the game. If someone wants to solo it's up to them to choose builds that work for soloing for their skill level (there are people that can solo on any reasonable build) and not Turbine's responsibility that every build works equally well for soloing.

Warlock Blasters are good but not great for LE raids. Blasters are clearly great for running quests with many mobs - who cares it's quests that any build can complete and nobody will be rejected from party due to their build.

it's very complicated.. considering DDO isn't a balanced game, people can freely play how they chooses. Difference between quest and raids are huge. If you are blaster, there is a limit on how much damage you can deal within few seconds. So it could be that, those classes that shine in LE quests will most likely such in LE raids. At least for warlocks if they want trash kills. I could build my divine to be a better DC caster than wizard, so I can outshine wizards, but I'll lose so much DPS and if you place me in a quest (say slavers) with warlock. I would do less work than I did in LE raids, because there is significant difference in scaling. So just because someone out damaged me in a quest doesn't mean I'm a terrible player and soloing doesn't prove it 100%. I think once we all understand that it would be easier for us.. In fact, who play as a team now days. Pretty much everyone stand for themselves. We are more aggressive with our approach IMO. But we shouldn't discard balance.. even tho, DDO isn't balanced.

[alizabethie]

I am tired of the nerfs, I tired of people complaining about warlocks. Each class should be upped so that we can all fight hard. People are just upset cause warlock is awesome. I have several toons, clerics, warlocks, etc. I play them all. I love most of the classes. So quit whining about warlocks. I don't like alot of the classes. If you don't like them, don't run with them. U make harder content then knock .....temporary .... hps down. Get it they are temporary. we don't keep them. Don't weaken a class, make others stronger to match the warlock on power. make the field even. I don't care. let us have fun instead of chasing good players off. If you are a vip, then that means we pay for having fun, not paying to get nerfed every time someone has a good build. that is childish. People whining about warlocks are childish. It is supposed to be fun, not whining.

[Ellihor]

I say we should have a range of builds that meet the varying preferences of the players. Players are enjoying those B builds just fine. There are players that would be bored to tears on A builds. The game is just not that challenging.

I don't know where did you take this from, but you missed the whole point of why people want warlock to be nerfed: because it's ruining the quality of the game, that's the opposite of "just fine". Now if the game is not challenging, I don't see why do you are against a change that would bring more challenge.

[slarden]

I don't know where did you take this from, but you missed the whole point of why people want warlock to be nerfed: because it's ruining the quality of the game, that's the opposite of "just fine". Now if the game is not challenging, I don't see why do you are against a change that would bring more challenge.

Nothing is wrong with nerfing warlock, but the other 10+ builds that are equally op including wizard also need a nerf.

[Ellihor]

Nothing is wrong with nerfing warlock, but the other 10+ builds that are equally op including wizard also need a nerf.

Fine, after 46 pages defeding the status quo of warlock, suddenly you say nothing is wrong with nerfing it. I'm glad you changed your mind! What do you think we should start with? For me remove the 20% hp capstone, the medium armor, the temp hp from aura, the amp, and shining through. That would be a start. I hope for you nothing is wrong with those nerfs and you don't change your mind back and fill more 46 pages.

[NaturalHazard]

I shouldn't buy the class, it would lead to a lot of anger and might lead to the death of DDO.

[slarden]

Fine, after 46 pages defeding the status quo of warlock, suddenly you say nothing is wrong with nerfing it. I'm glad you changed your mind! What do you think we should start with? For me remove the 20% hp capstone, the medium armor, the temp hp from aura, the amp, and shining through. That would be a start. I hope for you nothing is wrong with those nerfs and you don't change your mind back and fill more 46 pages.

I haven't changed my mind, I've been saying for quite some time that warlock is no more deserving of a nerf than the other top builds including wizard. What I am against is nerfing only warlock and leaving other equally strong or better builds untouched.

Warlock and Wizard are roughly equal in power. What are your suggested nerfs for wizard? After all, warlock nerfs shouldn't be done standalone it needs to be done as part of a balance pass along with other strong builds. I would need to see comparable nerfs on a wizard to assess if it makes sense.

[Ellihor]

I haven't changed my mind, I've been saying for quite some time that warlock is no more deserving of a nerf than the other top builds including wizard. What I am against is nerfing only warlock and leaving other equally strong or better builds untouched.

What have you suggested about nerfing other top builds? And yeah, nice try wanting to derail the thread to wizard.

Warlock and Wizard are roughly equal in power.

Seriously, nice try.

What are your suggested nerfs for wizard?

Nothing, why should I? You are the one claiming wizards are a top build, not me.

After all, warlock nerfs shouldn't be done standalone it needs to be done as part of a balance pass along with other strong builds. I would need to see comparable nerfs on a wizard to assess if it makes sense.

I'm all for nerfing other strong builds. Unlike you. Other day there was a thread demanding nerf to shiradi spammer, I was there agreeing. There was also a thread about shuriken, and I was there as well, agreeing it should be nerfed. On the first you were defeding that shiradi spammer isn't OP, I don't know if you were on the second. So, you see, you are not being fair on the things you say about others, and about yourself. And nice try about wizards, again. Start your thread about wizards, instead of trying to provoke conflict.

[Mr_Helmet]

Nothing is wrong with nerfing warlock, but the other 10+ builds that are equally op including wizard also need a nerf.

Nerf 'em all.

[slarden]

What have you suggested about nerfing other top builds? And yeah, nice try wanting to derail the thread to wizard.

How about the 3rd entry in this thread and much earlier in other threads where I said the same thing. If they want to reduce character power warlock deserves it as much as other builds.

Wizard is in the group of OP builds along with warlock. I have no favoritsm my sig alone shows I have multiple wizard builds and that doesn't include my 17 wizard / 3 fvs that is tearing up slavers and outkilling warlocks consistently.

I'm all for nerfing other strong builds. Unlike you. Other day there was a thread demanding nerf to shiradi spammer, I was there agreeing. There was also a thread about shuriken, and I was there as well, agreeing it should be nerfed. On the first you were defeding that shiradi spammer isn't OP, I don't know if you were on the second. So, you see, you are not being fair on the things you say about others, and about yourself. And nice try about wizards, again. Start your thread about wizards, instead of trying to provoke conflict.

As evidenced by the fact that you asked the devs to NOT raise enemy saves in Slavers LE on Lamannia. This is not a request I would expect from someone who is focused on balance for all builds.

Shiradi is all about synergies and so is exalted angel, draconic, legendary dreadnought as is twisting in whirling wrists for sense weakness for that matter.

What I've said consistently is that I would like to see Turbine focus on bugs that aren't working as intended first and then overall balance. Bugs are a bigger deal in my opinion because only people that know about the favorable bugs get the power from those. I think it makes DDO a more fair and honest game if they clean up those bugs first. Those bugs should be fixed as identified since they are not working as intended. Balance is more subjective and doesn't require such an immediate action since it's mostly opinion.

Beyond that they need to figure out where they want character power relative to quests and either amp up the difficulty or nerf builds, past lifes, gear to bring down character power. They need to do the nerf as a block because it's not just shiradi that's op, or thrower that is op or wizard that is op or warlock that is op - all of those are. Since I've been playing this game there has always been op builds tearing up content. Difference now is that enhancement pass made those easier to figure out and the player base as a whole is more experienced compared to 2012 for example when very few people played the most powerful builds.

[nokowi]

I don't know where did you take this from, but you missed the whole point of why people want warlock to be nerfed: because it's ruining the quality of the game, that's the opposite of "just fine". Now if the game is not challenging, I don't see why do you are against a change that would bring more challenge.

I am against players who have no idea what classes are good or bad asking for nerfs becomes somebody is better than them at DDO.

You find in this thread a player scared to take their Warlock up against a melee rogue that still demands warlock needs nerfing. If they are so overpowered this player should be able to make a mockery of a tier 2 melee rogue build.

Players who want changes need to define want warrants a change and stick to it. This needs to be consistent across all classes, not just the class that is "ruining your fun", while not being accepted for the class you play.

What they seem to do is complain and be unable to provide any evidence or discussion beyond their own characters underperforming.

If you have specifics of why Warlock needs a nerf and are prepared to defend those statements, by all means do so.

If you don't, then you won't convince anyone of anything. They could remove Warlock from the game and it wouldn't increase challenge, which is why I find this version of NERF THIS! amusing.

[Tilomere]

What have you suggested about nerfing other top builds?

This list covers all of them, including warlock.

Forget nerfs. Just bug fixes and a better implementation of CDG rules will bring everyone into better balance.