Are auto immune bosses good for the game?

[QuantumFX]

This, and the other thread, make the mistake of assuming that the mobs in DDO are anything similar to the player characters. Mobs do not have gear, they have stats.

That said, there should never be a time where a character’s special attack should be completely useless. This was one of the better parts of the changes to Smiting/Disruption/Vorpal a couple years ago. They may not be able to insta kill bosses, but they do add enough damage to make them worthwhile in fights against bosses. It’s too bad that the current crop of developers had to undo this with the current crop of weapon damage mods.

[GrayScioto]

From what I remember from my earlier days in EverQuest I, it was impossible to kill most bosses without a heavy dose of debuffs. A dragon which was two to three times the physical size of dragons here in DDO needed to be debuffed for the raid party (which I believe could be up to 72 people) to have a chance of killing the beast. During a raid a couple of six person squads were necessary to get up under a dragon in order for the Enchanters and Shaman to debuff and slow it enough so that the DPS could survive long enough to kill the beast. The Enchanters could lower the magic resistance enough for the Shaman to get a slow spell to land. The debuffs also had to be recast during the course of the fight. The encounters were designed so that a diverse raid group was needed for success. If your debuff groups wiped your raid most likely wiped too.

I am certain that as the game went on there were folks who could solo or duo the old raid content just like in DDO but in the newer content is was always necessary to have a crew of debuffers for the raid to have any hope of success. I understand that DDO and EverQuest are very different games but I like the idea of a raid encounter that is designed so that a group of diverse characters are needed for success.

But no a boss should not be subject insta-death or being frozen but I like the idea of debuffs and slows being necessary for the success of a raid.

[Darkmits]

That is why the goal is to make alternate paths, but not always better paths.

As long as DPS is the best/only way to kill bosses AND dps can clear the trash, DPS will remain the only way to build.

qft and visibility

The common factor between all builds in the game is that they all can output damage, even if at variable levels. This means that to allow content to be soloable, or conversely to remove the need for grouping ala "group ready to go, just need one healer", then this common factor needs to be a common weak point in challenges. And it currently is. At least to the best of my knowledge every enemy can be dps'ed to death.

However the current design has taken this a bit too far. Hit point damage should be a weak point, but it should not be the only weak point and it should also not be the weakest point. Currently some enemies can only receive hit point damage to die (ie. immunity to all forms of debuffs) or they can be debuffed but it's still mathematically better to just hit them. How many enemies that you know you can debuff do you decide to debuff before attacking them first?

Then we also have the situation where a lot of debuffs are automatically applied by Enhancements/EDs passively, or even worse by weapon procs. Touch of Idiocy doesn't work on most enemies that survive enough for the full animation to complete, but those enemies are 100% vulnerable to having their Int/Cha/Wis reduced by some passive weapon proc. Similarily for a lot of other effects, like Mass Hold which has a significant chance to not work even if you max your DC for it, but you can see a bow-user paralyze with 100% success everything that isn't red/purple named passively while dealing damage to them. To make it even worse, on those enemies that are vulnerable to debuffing, they die by 1, at most 2, single-digit spellpoint cost spells or 1-2 autoattacks, effectively making the option to debuff them a gimping one for the player.

[bartharok]

Bosses with auto immune deficiency wouldnt be much fun.

[Starla70]

I think the whole idea of the red names and end bosses being immune to almost everything may make the power gamers feel better, but it hurts the causal gamer. Just 2 updates ago I played every quest and raid, some were harder then others, which is fine. Now, there are many quests and a couple of raids, I just will not do, unless I know I have a good solid group going with me. IT just is not worth the struggle, when I play for enjoyment, not more struggle.

There should be someway this can be better balanced, or even adding a harder level just for those players that want that, without hurting those that are here for the game play, not the power rush.

[Basura_Grande]

Bosses with auto immune deficiency wouldnt be much fun.

I don't know, Charlie Sheen's the life of the party.

[bartharok]

I don't know, Charlie Sheen's the life of the party.

Depends on the party.

[Pnumbra]

This, and the other thread, make the mistake of assuming that the mobs in DDO are anything similar to the player characters. Mobs do not have gear, they have stats.

That said, there should never be a time where a character’s special attack should be completely useless. This was one of the better parts of the changes to Smiting/Disruption/Vorpal a couple years ago. They may not be able to insta kill bosses, but they do add enough damage to make them worthwhile in fights against bosses. It’s too bad that the current crop of developers had to undo this with the current crop of weapon damage mods.

Correcting your assumption:

I did not make the mistake of assuming mobs and players are similar. I asked the question based on "as things are", not what I think they should be. You state mobs do not have gear. That is obvious, thus the point is mute. Thank you for the second part of your post.

[KoobTheProud]

If bosses didn't have immunities they would represent no challenge to the community at all. Very high saves and SR that could theoretically be beat by a combination of debuffs and spells would just lead to cookie-cutter builds designed to do that.

What would be kind of cool was if some of the boss fights were rotated a bit, with largely immune bosses that were working on a timer to kill the party/raid or be defeated. Say a fight where an arcane or divine ritual would defeat the boss but the casters involved had to live long enough to complete the ritual and the raid had to figure out a way to keep them alive and the ritual going while they were doing it.

You could have the boss just periodically targeting raid members while waves of adds did the actual combat against the ritualists and their protectors. Get the ritual complete and the boss is banished and the end fight won without ever actually addressing the boss himself, since he's largely immune anyway.

I know this sounds like killing legs but it isn't really. It's more about shifting the focus of the end fight to accomplishing a very challenging task before the raid wipes, with individual DPS, healing and CC all an important part of getting that done.

[Xionanx]

***PLEASE, LET'S KEEP THE CONVERSATION RESPECTFUL AND ENGAGING***

I read a post in the Bodak thread that made me think about this question. How does giving red name mobs immunity to nearly everything contribute to a more engaging game? Doesn't this just feed the DPS train?

It doesn't.

Yes it does.

In fact, its what STARTED the "DPS Train".. because before monsters had blanket immunity people would:
1. Learn the boss weakness
2. Exploit that weakness via gear/spells
3. Failing to be able to exploit the weakness.. power through it with DPS

now its all about doing as much DPS as possible because good luck killing anything any other way..

[SableShadow]

There would need to be a balance so there wasn't one vulnerability that would make defeating the boss trivial.
That said, it would make for more interesting encounters and give people more ways to contribute.

For instance, when ToD was released the Assassin set level drain applied to bosses; we used it on Horroth (because I was using the set anyway) and it made caster's and tank's jobs easier, but he was in no danger of being level drained to death.

Quests in which the fight becomes easier if...

1) Someone brings down the boss spell resistance
2) Someone dispels its shield
3) Everyone else can apply effects (poison, level drain, etc etc)

...would be interesting.

There are shades of this already:
1) people throw Mark of the Hunter / Assassin's Trick to lower fortification
2) proc Shadow Mastery to make target normally not subject to sneak attacks sneakattack-able
3) Various vulnerability stackings

In fact, its what STARTED the "DPS Train".. because before monsters had blanket immunity people would:
1. Learn the boss weakness
2. Exploit that weakness via gear/spells
3. Failing to be able to exploit the weakness.. power through it with DPS

now its all about doing as much DPS as possible because good luck killing anything any other way..

Exactly.
DM: Mhuhahahahah! Awesome monstah is awesome!
Players: Huh. He's weak to <x tactic>. Let's use that!
DM: Muh ... muh monstah!?!??! That tactic no longer works on it! So there!
Players: ... Fine. We'll just stab it to deth. Happy?
DM: Muh ... muh monstah!?!??! No fine! I've added hit points up the ying yang!
Players: <groan> Fine. We'll raise and call, with every scrap of DPS we can find anywhere on the planet. And not just this one. Happy?
DM: ... maybe?

It's more about shifting the focus of the end fight to accomplishing a very challenging task before the raid wipes, with individual DPS, healing and CC all an important part of getting that done.

I'm only about 50/50 at tiles. And lag can make all three rooms a pita.

[Enoach]

If bosses didn't have immunities they would represent no challenge to the community at all. Very high saves and SR that could theoretically be beat by a combination of debuffs and spells would just lead to cookie-cutter builds designed to do that.

What would be kind of cool was if some of the boss fights were rotated a bit, with largely immune bosses that were working on a timer to kill the party/raid or be defeated. Say a fight where an arcane or divine ritual would defeat the boss but the casters involved had to live long enough to complete the ritual and the raid had to figure out a way to keep them alive and the ritual going while they were doing it.

You could have the boss just periodically targeting raid members while waves of adds did the actual combat against the ritualists and their protectors. Get the ritual complete and the boss is banished and the end fight won without ever actually addressing the boss himself, since he's largely immune anyway.

I know this sounds like killing legs but it isn't really. It's more about shifting the focus of the end fight to accomplishing a very challenging task before the raid wipes, with individual DPS, healing and CC all an important part of getting that done.

Your idea would make "tanking" more relevant.

I like raids like Temple of the Deathwyrm, Ascension Chamber, Master Artificer, Lord of Blades, Vault of Night and The Titan Awakes (even though I don't like the fact that Titan only has 3 roles for end raid).

What I like about these raids is that at level it takes a group working together be it all out DPS, Tanking the Trash, Tanking the Boss and also at the same time solving a puzzle. Raids should never be one facetted. They should have multiple moving parts that need to be worked in tandem or coordinated.