Raid Runes

[Steelstar]

Hey, folks.

As we've mentioned in a few places, the U29 Legendary Raids will not feature 20th Reward Lists. Instead, you will receive Runes unique to each Raid which may be traded for the Raid's named items.

Why the new system?
This is best stated in a quote from Vargouille:

The most important factor here is that it allows us to reward hard and elite. In the past, it was common practice for many raids to simply play the raid 20 times on Normal. We don't want that to simply be the obviously best way to get the rewards from that raid. Since we do expect Hard an Elite to take more time and resources (and possible failure chance) compared to Normal, those difficulties should be more rewarding than Normal, as well.

20th lists are not ideal in terms of allowing players to play content in a way that is engages and challenges them. We know many players want to be challenged, but feel that method is "playing wrong" if they could get the same rewards faster by not being challenged.

This also has benefits, such as carrying across through Reincarnations.

So how will this work?
When you complete one of these Legendary Raids, "Rune" ingredients will drop in the raid's End Chest. (For example, Legendary Hound of Xoriat drops "Xorian Runes").

• You always get SOME Runes, unless the chest is Ransacked. The exact number is based on a die roll, so there is some variance.
• You get more Runes on Hard, and even more on Elite.
• Runes are Bound to Account. You could run the raids on your alts and pass the tokens back to one of your own characters.
• Runes cannot be transferred in the Chest.

The questgiver NPC for the raid you've been running will have a dialogue option that opens a barter window where you can trade in your Runes. The exact drop numbers, trade-in lists, and costs of items will vary from raid to raid. In the case of Hound of Xoriat and Tempest's Spine, the barter window contains all of the named loot* that can drop in those raids, plus an option to trade runes for Tier 1 and 2 Greensteel Ingredients.

Beyond this system, named loot will still drop as usual in the new Legendary Raids. That should cover the basics, feel free to ask questions here and I'll answer when I can.

EDIT: Worth noting, much like the 20th list from DoJ, the barter shop only provides non-Mythic versions of the loot. Mythic versions are still available in the end chests.

[Atremus]

Does this go live in U29?

[UurlockYgmeov]

Thank you. I like this new and improved system. Kindly retro-fit this to all existing raids (and do a minor loot pass at the same time).

and is guaranteed that
a) at most 20 normal completions equal shot at the new 20th list equivalent? (ie completion on norm guaranteed at least 1 Rune, and that the new 20th list is no more than 20 Runes?)
b) will always get more Runes on hard vs norm?
c) will always get more Runes on elite vs hard?

finally - can we have the proposed numbers for LHoX, LTS, and LCodex (aka LShroud)?

[Attropos]

Wow, I'm speechless. This is actually really fantastic and finally rewards having alts and having multiple raid ready characters.

[Paryan]

Hey, folks.

As we've mentioned in a few places, the U29 Legendary Raids will not feature 20th Reward Lists. Instead, you will receive Runes unique to each Raid which may be traded for the Raid's named items.

Why the new system?
This is best stated in a quote from Vargouille:


This also has benefits, such as carrying across through Reincarnations.

So how will this work?
When you complete one of these Legendary Raids, "Rune" ingredients will drop in the raid's End Chest. (For example, Legendary Hound of Xoriat drops "Xorian Runes").

• You always get SOME Runes, unless the chest is Ransacked. The exact number is based on a die roll, so there is some variance.
• You get more Runes on Hard, and even more on Elite.
• Runes are Bound to Account. You could run the raids on your alts and pass the tokens back to one of your own characters.
• Runes cannot be transferred in the Chest.

The questgiver NPC for the raid you've been running will have a dialogue option that opens a barter window where you can trade in your Runes. The exact drop numbers, trade-in lists, and costs of items will vary from raid to raid. In the case of Hound of Xoriat and Tempest's Spine, the barter window contains all of the named loot that can drop in those raids, plus an option to trade runes for Tier 1 and 2 Greensteel Ingredients.

Beyond this system, named loot will still drop as usual in the new Legendary Raids. That should cover the basics, feel free to ask questions here and I'll answer when I can.

Haven't thought too much on the pros and cons of this just yet, but one thing stands out: Runes are BTA. For better or worse, this seems contrary to the design of raid loot thus far in that any character on an account can get the raid loot without actually having run it. Any reasoning why this is now the case here or why the raid loot mechanic on loot owernship has changed?

(Don't get me wrong, I kinda like the change...just seems so ....out of character....)

[slarden]

Can you tell us how many raids we need to run on each difficulty to get enough runes to exchange for an item (based on average roll per difficulty which I didn't find in the info).

That is currently 20 for each difficulty, what will that be with the new system?

My concern is that if the raid is as laggy as DOJ and there are fast dps requirements to avoid a failure condition, people will want to run mostly EN just like DOJ to reduce the likelihood of lag wipes. If you are significantly increasing the # of runs to get an item - that is a concern if the raid is laggy.

I am sure I've been in over 20 lag wipes alone since DOJ was introduced.

I assume tokens aren't given on ransack. That alone eliminates the 20-in-a-day issues to get a reward.

Overall, I like the concept depending on the # of runs required.

[Steelstar]

Does this go live in U29?

Yes, for the three Legendary Raids in U29. At the moment, we don't have immediate plans to retrofit it to other raids.

[Grailhawk]

So in the old system 20 normal raids got you an item.

Is it a reasonable expectation that on average 20 normal raids will still get you an item?
How many Hard runs on average will get you an item?
How many Elite runs on average will get you an item?

[janave]

Wow, I'm speechless. This is actually really fantastic and finally rewards having alts and having multiple raid ready characters.

^Yup, this system is a real improvement for DDO.

[Atremus]

Yes, for the three Legendary Raids in U29. At the moment, we don't have immediate plans to retrofit it to other raids.

Thanks! Needed to know how many Alts I should level/cap all over the next few weeks.

Follow on questions:

Edit: Follow on questions were Ninja'd

I like the idea a lot. One of the best ideas in a while.

Edit: I also assumed this only applies to the new raids. Sounds like a real good system.

[patang01]

Haven't thought too much on the pros and cons of this just yet, but one thing stands out: Runes are BTA. For better or worse, this seems contrary to the design of raid loot thus far in that any character on an account can get the raid loot without actually having run it. Any reasoning why this is now the case here or why the raid loot mechanic on loot owernship has changed?

(Don't get me wrong, I kinda like the change...just seems so ....out of character....)

To me this makes perfect sense. Runes BTA, items BTC. It doesn't matter who you run with, only that you spend time running. The only thing that should matter in any game is that you play, who you play with should always be inconsiquential. There's not unique if you run with toon A or toon B and certainly irrelevant to anyone else. The consequence will be that you tie that item to one guy anyways when you finally pick what you want.

This is actually a great system that bridges the dilemma of players bombing through normal for the 20th list instead of trying for a harder challenge. Or the fact that normal seems more rewarding and less time spent when you finally run harder, waste lots of resources and get zip. Here you get more guaranteed.

[Steelstar]

Can you tell us how many raids we need to run on each difficulty to get enough runes to exchange for an item.

That is currently 20 for each difficulty, what will that be with the new system?

My concern is that if the raid is as laggy as DOJ and there are fast dps requirements to avoid a failure condition, people will want to run mostly EN just like DOJ to reduce the likelihood of lag wipes. If you are significantly increasing the # of runs to get an item - that is a concern if the raid is laggy.

I am sure I've been in over 20 lag wipes alone since DOJ was introduced.

I assume tokens aren't given on ransack. That alone eliminates the 20-in-a-day issues to get a reward.

Overall, I like the concept depending on the # of runs required.

The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:

• Named items cost 1250 Runes
  
  • Normal drops 25-75 Runes
  • Hard drops 50-150 Runes
  • Elite drops 100-200 Runes

This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

• Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
• Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
• Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)

It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

[slarden]

To me this makes perfect sense. Runes BTA, items BTC. It doesn't matter who you run with, only that you spend time running. The only thing that should matter in any game is that you play, who you play with should always be inconsiquential. There's not unique if you run with toon A or toon B and certainly irrelevant to anyone else. The consequence will be that you tie that item to one guy anyways when you finally pick what you want.

This is actually a great system that bridges the dilemma of players bombing through normal for the 20th list instead of trying for a harder challenge. Or the fact that normal seems more rewarding and less time spent when you finally run harder, waste lots of resources and get zip. Here you get more guaranteed.

I agree, but would like more details on the runes given for each difficulty and the trade-in costs.

I like the system better in theory since it's more alt-friendly. It doesn't make sense to not run the raid with a character. It makes more sense to run the raid with as many alts as possible.

[slarden]

The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:

• Named items cost 1250 Runes
  
  • Normal drops 25-75 Runes
  • Hard drops 50-150 Runes
  • Elite drops 100-200 Runes

This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

• Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
• Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
• Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)

It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

Yes this seems great. I am fine if it's more than 20 runs on normal. My ratio for DOJ has been about 2/3 normal and 1/3 hard, but most of the groups could have run on hard but nobody wanted to because they were all on ransack and were going for 20th list rewards.

This is a great solution! Well done and thank you for making alts relevant again.

This is very easily one of the best improvements I've ever seen to DDO.

[Qhualor]

The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:

• Named items cost 1250 Runes
  
  • Normal drops 25-75 Runes
  • Hard drops 50-150 Runes
  • Elite drops 100-200 Runes

This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

• Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
• Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
• Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)

It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

This looks like a compromise to those that want raid completions persisting through TRs. I like this.

[RistoffDervish]

The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:

• Named items cost 1250 Runes
  
  • Normal drops 25-75 Runes
  • Hard drops 50-150 Runes
  • Elite drops 100-200 Runes

This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

• Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
• Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
• Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)

It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

I LOVE this new system! Great job! I can run raids and reincarnate without making it seem like a wasted tally. It might even give me a reason to dust off some of my 10 alts and throw them back in the fight.

I only wish it was not possible to get less runes on hard than on normal / elite than hard.

I'm okay with the dice roll mechanic, but I would like it to be guaranteed that when I run elite I will get more than running on hard. It removes the potential for a feeling of disappointment.

[Krell]

Hey, folks.

As we've mentioned in a few places, the U29 Legendary Raids will not feature 20th Reward Lists. Instead, you will receive Runes unique to each Raid which may be traded for the Raid's named items.

Why the new system?
This is best stated in a quote from Vargouille:


This also has benefits, such as carrying across through Reincarnations.

So how will this work?
When you complete one of these Legendary Raids, "Rune" ingredients will drop in the raid's End Chest. (For example, Legendary Hound of Xoriat drops "Xorian Runes").

• You always get SOME Runes, unless the chest is Ransacked. The exact number is based on a die roll, so there is some variance.
• You get more Runes on Hard, and even more on Elite.
• Runes are Bound to Account. You could run the raids on your alts and pass the tokens back to one of your own characters.
• Runes cannot be transferred in the Chest.

The questgiver NPC for the raid you've been running will have a dialogue option that opens a barter window where you can trade in your Runes. The exact drop numbers, trade-in lists, and costs of items will vary from raid to raid. In the case of Hound of Xoriat and Tempest's Spine, the barter window contains all of the named loot* that can drop in those raids, plus an option to trade runes for Tier 1 and 2 Greensteel Ingredients.

Beyond this system, named loot will still drop as usual in the new Legendary Raids. That should cover the basics, feel free to ask questions here and I'll answer when I can.

EDIT: Worth noting, much like the 20th list from DoJ, the barter shop only provides non-Mythic versions of the loot. Mythic versions are still available in the end chests.

After seeing the rune/reward numbers, I like this system better than the old one. I like that you can pass them between alts. It reminds me of then I had 7-8 "shroud ready" alts for daily runs. I don't really have a problem with the "no pass in chest" feature but I am curious about the thoughts behind it. Maybe to prevent loading up with dual-boxing? The bottlenecks I see at this point are raid timers and ransacks. One is circumventable with bypass timers. I've never liked the ransack system. Ideally I'd like to see it yanked out. Worst case, make some money with some ransack bypass items, but that is another topic.

[Atremus]

The return of Shroud Night!

[Grailhawk]

The exact number will vary by raid and difficulty. In the case of Hound and Tempest's Spine, our current (and very very subject to change) numbers look like this:

• Named items cost 1250 Runes
  
  • Normal drops 25-75 Runes
  • Hard drops 50-150 Runes
  • Elite drops 100-200 Runes

This means (assuming you only run one difficulty) getting one item from the barter shop looks like:

• Normal: Average of 25 runs (17-50 runs)
• Hard: Average of 13 runs (8-25 runs)
• Elite: Average of 8 runs (7-13 runs)

It is a bit higher than 20 on average for Normal runs. For the Raids in this pack, we are OK with that, especially given that these rewards persist through reincarnation and can be passed from alts.

System is sound nothing wrong with it but I don't like the numbers a better system IMO would be
Items cost 20 runes
Normal drops 1 per chest open (20 runs)
Hard drops 1-2 per chest open (13 runs avg, 20 run max, 10 runs min)
Elite drops 2-3 per chest open (8 runs avg, 10 runs max, 7 runs min)

You could also raise the cost to 25 runs I guess my key complains are that the number of runes on normal should be static so that you know exactly how many runs it will take to get an item on normal. lets remove the randomness from there please.

[Tevasama]

Yes, for the three Legendary Raids in U29. At the moment, we don't have immediate plans to retrofit it to other raids.

This sounds like a wonderful new system. PLEASE do plan to retrofit other (including heroic) raids with this system!

I doubt I'm alone that I end up skipping many raids because there is no way I will run more than perhaps only 3-4 times before TRing. This would incentivize not skipping raids just because I'll never get anywhere near 20 runs until my final life.