Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[Failedlegend]

I think Ranger AA remaininf Wis-based would be ok (not ideal) if Elven AA was treated differently and it used either Int or Cha...maybe even seperate it further by giving Ranger "Primal Archer" (or Primal Hunter) and have it be very favored enemy focused...make rangers the king of hunting their favored enemies make it a really huge deal...or you know remove AA from ranger entirely and make DWS their primary ranged tree insteasd of just a crappy melee/ranged mix tree. Leaves room for a third tree for rangers that actually suit the class. (since ARCANE archer doesn't suit it whether ranger is divine or primal)

This could be the start of races getting uniques prestiges to themselves...I'd also say move the PrE access to Racial Tier 1....Actually I'd say you should gain racial stuff (current racial stuff NOT the unique prestige) as you level up automatically (or with enough Racial exclusive AP to max it by Lvl 20) instead of wasting precious Class Enhancement points.

[Paladin20]

Does maximize add to the damage from elemental arrows?

I tried using Maximize and it does not seem to affect the damage from elemental arrows (I am inclined to believe that this is WAI, or else a low level character with Maximize would just do godly damage)

[Paladin20]

Has anyone else tried to run some numbers/tests as to determine how much Elemental Arrows are currently scaling with Spell Power?
I am running a Favored Soul AA build at mid-level and seem to have hit a cap as to how much Spell Power is affecting damage from Elemental Arrows. I picked Acid as the element, currently have 2 enhancements (should be +5d8) and have around 96 Acid Spell Power using a +15 Alchemical Potion. After shooting a bunch of mobs that take 100%/regular acid damage in GH, I noticed that I couldn't get a number higher than 65 and sometimes the bad rolls as low as 12.

1) Does the Alchemical boost from the potion affect the damage?
2) If I am doing the math correctly, shouldn't I be seeing numbers in the 70s once in a blue moon? Maybe just bad dice?

[EllisDee37]

Does maximize add to the damage from elemental arrows?

No. Metamagics only apply to spells and spell-like abilities. Any non-spell that gets scaled by spell power ignores metamagics, only using the spell power number you can see in your character sheet.

Same deal with Ameliorating Strike, for example.

[Failedlegend]

Hmm. I double checked and thats not how universal Spellpower works for me...guess I should submit a bug report than.

[unbongwah]

So a brief summary of the AA changes for those just tuning in:

Pre-U28.1: "The AA capstone sucks! Doubleshot penalties make DS useless! The imbues are too weak! DC 26 Paralyzing Arrow is pointless in epics!"

Turbine: Okay, Spellpower now boosts imbues, you can either specialize in a single imbue to max its dmg or spread APs for more variety, Doubleshot bonuses are useful 100% of the time, Manyshot scales with BAB so it's more powerful in epics with no downsides, WIS-based AAs get DC bonuses while everyone else can just focus on DPS, and Shadow Arrows also adds +1 crit multiplier.

Post-U28.1: "Now the AA capstone is mandatory! All our builds based on the assumption that the higher-level AA abilities would remain useless forever are gimped! And now we need to farm for Doubleshot and Spellpower gear too?! Thanks for nothing, Turbine!"

Turbine: ...hello, Mr. Vodka, how are you today?

[Grailhawk]

Doubleshot bonuses are useful 100% of the time, Manyshot scales with BAB so it's more powerful in epics with no downsides,

I agree with your premises that people are reacting to the AA changes badly and not seeing how much they were buffed. But Manyshot changes do have downsides

1) It caps at 80% double shot in heroics old manyshot capped at 300% doubleshot at level 16 this is a really big nerf to build that used it in heroic I'm pretty sure (no math done could be wrong) that even removal of the ds penalty doesn't make up for the DPS loss in heroic by late epic sure but don't think so in heroic. (I'm aware they are addressing this issue so its only a downside for now)

2) Hybrid 20 seconds of bow 100 second melee ranger builds took a hit at 28 its only like ~20% reduction but its probably enough to just leave the bow in the bank now, since melee has been buffed so much over the year or two.

3) The Arrow of Slaying Fury shot Manysot burst volley is likely down 25% of its damage doubt you can get enough DS to always get four shot? (hmm could be wrong maybe there's an interesting build with a doublshot boost)

3) Manyshot with less shots just isn't as fun as it was with a lot of shots.

[unbongwah]

1) It caps at 80% double shot in heroics old manyshot capped at 300% doubleshot at level 16 this is a really big nerf to build that used it in heroic I'm pretty sure (no math done could be wrong) that even removal of the ds penalty doesn't make up for the DPS loss in heroic by late epic sure but don't think so in heroic. (I'm aware they are addressing this issue so its only a downside for now)

Yes, as I said last week, I agree that MS has been nerfed in heroic levels, particularly for those who only "dabbled" with MS as a burst DPS option. But fortunately by lvl 20 it's a lot better than that: +80 Ranged Power from new MS; if we're talking pure rgr, you should have +25% Doubleshot from AA cores, ideally +20% DS from Killer, and possibly another +20% DS +5 Ranged Power from DWS T5.

So at lvl 20 on a pure rgr:
Old Manyshot: effective 300% double shot with 0 extra ranged power = 4x dmg
New Manyshot (AA T5): 125% double shot (MS+AA+Killer) with +80 Ranged Power = 2.25 * 1.8 = 4.05x dmg
New Manyshot (DWS T5): 145% DS with +85 Ranged Power = 2.45 * 1.85 = 4.53x dmg

And those numbers ignore the extra dmg from the improved imbues as well as crit bonuses from AA & DWS; once you factor those in, the difference is even more pronounced. So if you're someone who's stuck with pure AA rgr all along, the bad news is heroic leveling got worse; but the good news is with a few gear tweaks and some Enhancement swapping, your epic DPS will improve significantly.

2) Hybrid 20 seconds of bow 100 second melee ranger builds took a hit at 28 its only like ~20% reduction but its probably enough to just leave the bow in the bank now, since melee has been buffed so much over the year or two.

TBH, though, Manyshot has been lagging behind melee since U23. Again, MS changes make it worse in heroics and better in epics for "casual" Manyshotters. The biggest downside is those builds skipped out on any Doubleshot bonuses, because it used to be useless during MS; and they only have a few options for adding it now.

3) Manyshot with less shots just isn't as fun as it was with a lot of shots.

For me the issue with doubleshot/doublestrike has always been I hate the randomness of them. I would prefer a static dmg bonus over a % chance of an extra attack, because it's easier to predict the effects, particularly on a short-duration ability like Manyshot. I.e., I wish doubleshot/-strike had worked the way Ranged / Melee Power do now. But that's water long since under the bridge now, so... *shrug*

[CrackedIce]

So a brief summary of the AA changes for those just tuning in:

Pre-U28.1: "The AA capstone sucks! Doubleshot penalties make DS useless! The imbues are too weak! DC 26 Paralyzing Arrow is pointless in epics!"

Turbine: Okay, Spellpower now boosts imbues, you can either specialize in a single imbue to max its dmg or spread APs for more variety, Doubleshot bonuses are useful 100% of the time, Manyshot scales with BAB so it's more powerful in epics with no downsides, WIS-based AAs get DC bonuses while everyone else can just focus on DPS, and Shadow Arrows also adds +1 crit multiplier.

Post-U28.1: "Now the AA capstone is mandatory! All our builds based on the assumption that the higher-level AA abilities would remain useless forever are gimped! And now we need to farm for Doubleshot and Spellpower gear too?! Thanks for nothing, Turbine!"

Turbine: ...hello, Mr. Vodka, how are you today?

lol.

I have had a very positive experience that I shared in the Manyshot is nerfed thread in General Discussion:

Just want to share my experience. Before 18.1 pass my AA ranger was abandoned. He is level 25 15 ranger 4 fighter 1 wizard. I built him previously as strength based with enough dex to get combat archery and had feats split between melee and ranged. Which at the time, fit the theme of a switch-hitter. With the power increase since the enhancement pass, and just having the feats for specific combat style and some dabbling in enhancements to further boost that style was no longer an option. As our builds get more powerful, the ability to do well in both became significantly more difficult. In short, he was plain bad; both in ranged and in melee. My best bet was furyshot. Outside furyshot, had to take every advantage of IPS but even then, soloing was a real bear on EH. It would take forever to kill things. Example, in the dwarven halls I was taking minutes to get past first room of skelies. He was no longer the Helves Angel he had been originally (+20 heart moved him from eleven AA dragon-marked 12 kensei 7 Ranger 1 wizard to 15 Ranger 4 fighter 1 wizard).

Now I rezzed him with only ranged feats dex based build. Dumped strength in favor of wisdom. Took spell focus feats as well as ranged power feats. Slotted iron heads. 16 ap in elf for extended displacement, 41 AA, 23 deepwood. My damage is soo much improved. Double shot is very noticeable especially in areas with many monsters where I can keep killer up. Combined with Killer and capstone, Manyshot does indeed feel like Manyshot even without furyshot which it had not done so before. This is with killer up so 50 doubleshot before I use Manyshot. I can switch between force and lightening arrows. My paralyzing imbues work on EH consistently (Gianthold), as for EE, depends on quest level - It does fine in EE for Menace of Underdark pack quests, not so well on EE Gianthold - but I have more DC to grow into. I do notice huge drop in dps though when using para imbues (lose about 100-250 per hit). So I focus on being more aggressive with lining up adrenaline sniper slaying arrows. I figure I am being more party friendly with using the dc arrows.

Been having blast - can't wait for crit damage for elf racial to be fixed to see difference as I am using Pinion so I am critting often and hard.

Still think that AA is weaker option than deepwood especially outside Fury destiny, though and would like to see some added benefit to capstone/tier 5s.

[Grace_ana]

I like that they made doubleshot relevant. I don't like that they made it mandatory. By removing the penalties alone and allowing doubleshot to wrap, it would have made it a relevant playstyle. But the nerf to manyshot, as well as making the damage of manyshot in large part dependent on doubleshot, actually severely limited archer builds. Essentially now, there is no real way to make a decent archer without piling on the doubleshot. This means 41 points in AA and at least 32 in DWS, and basically ignoring melee.

I don't think limiting was the intent, but I think it's a situation that very seriously needs to be addressed. I want there to be as many viable ways to make an archer as there are to make a toon of any other weapon fighting style. That doesn't mean "you can build whatever you want and play whatever you want so why are you complaining." That's not reasonable. Damage, utility, and survivability, considered together, should be approximately equivalent for all classes. Rangers don't have much utility and have relatively low damage mitigation (though not nonexistent). Archers can sometimes use distance for damage mitigation but often not, depending on the dungeon. They are like mechanics with less utility, actually. If they were slightly better than them at damage or even equivalent, I'd be happy. And when I say "they," I mean all versions of an archer, not just the doubleshot-to-the-max kind.

[Paladin20]

I like that they made doubleshot relevant. I don't like that they made it mandatory. By removing the penalties alone and allowing doubleshot to wrap, it would have made it a relevant playstyle. But the nerf to manyshot, as well as making the damage of manyshot in large part dependent on doubleshot, actually severely limited archer builds. Essentially now, there is no real way to make a decent archer without piling on the doubleshot. This means 41 points in AA and at least 32 in DWS, and basically ignoring melee.

I don't think limiting was the intent, but I think it's a situation that very seriously needs to be addressed. I want there to be as many viable ways to make an archer as there are to make a toon of any other weapon fighting style.

Yep, I agree 100%. It's great that they made it relevant but almost like a tragic unintended consequence it is now pretty much mandatory. For a Ranger at least you still have nice bonuses in the DWS, but for other non-ranger AA builds this is severely limiting as 41 points in AA often doesn't even allow you to take Core 4 on main class.

{Post edit: or at least they need to include some other sources of relevant (more than 5%) Doubleshot in the game that don't involve Epic TR/taking up feat slots}

[eachna_gislin]

So a brief summary of the AA changes for those just tuning in:

Pre-U28.1: "The AA capstone sucks! Doubleshot penalties make DS useless! The imbues are too weak! DC 26 Paralyzing Arrow is pointless in epics!"

Turbine: Okay, Spellpower now boosts imbues, you can either specialize in a single imbue to max its dmg or spread APs for more variety, Doubleshot bonuses are useful 100% of the time, Manyshot scales with BAB so it's more powerful in epics with no downsides, WIS-based AAs get DC bonuses while everyone else can just focus on DPS, and Shadow Arrows also adds +1 crit multiplier.

Post-U28.1: "Now the AA capstone is mandatory! All our builds based on the assumption that the higher-level AA abilities would remain useless forever are gimped! And now we need to farm for Doubleshot and Spellpower gear too?! Thanks for nothing, Turbine!"

Turbine: ...hello, Mr. Vodka, how are you today?

Keeping in mind for a moment that the latest EE pack is _not_ the entire game, and that the AA tree is used by Racial builds as well as Rangers...

Having a racial prestige that depends on two cores that are only available in epic levels and that depends on Doubleshot (that can't really be built up in heroic levels), and losing my DC's on my paralyze arrows mid-life, and not really being that much faster at killing stuff than before the changes is not actually an improvement to someone playing _heroic_ racial AA's and then TRing.

Also, believe it or not, it's not a perk to "get to" focus on damage if I don't have a wisdom build. AA's need CC in order to slow down mobs that are running at them trying to kill them. Not being able to CC means having to run around, which breaks Archer's Focus (if you use it) or getting running penalties while shooting and moving (if you can't afford Shot on the Run) or facing issues....

Some of us play heroics. Some of us don't play AA's as yet another way to machine-gun elemental damage. Some of us are trying to have a positive game experience.

[Failedlegend]

Doubleshot penalties make DS useless!

My complaint was more that Manyshot was a BETTER ability for Melee's who carry a bow just for Manyshot due to the penalty as opposed to actual archers im glad they removed I to thay said I. Not happy that all archers NEED to rely on an action boost to be at all effective I would have like to have seen a lesser passive version. For now I still prefer the more natural feel of repeaters...I prefer the rogue version since its power comes recommends attack instead of endless fusilade.

Problem: The imbues are too weak!
Solution: Okay, Spellpower now boosts imbues, you can either specialize in a single imbue to max its dmg or spread APs for more variety

I see no issue with this, in fact my EK would love to get this fix as well

Manyshot scales with BAB so it's more powerful in epics with no downsides

Anyone with less than full BAB begs to differ.

WIS-based AAs get DC bonuses while everyone else can just focus on DPS

Considering it's called ARCANE archer wisdom is a stupid choice...it should either be highest of Int/Cha or just highest mental stat, you of course might argue that rangers casting stat is Wisdom and my retort is that Rangers don't actually need more than 14 Wisdom since they have no good CC spells and of course it's called ARCANE archer should have never been a ranger prestige anyways they already have DWS. I'd rather see it become exclusive to Elves.

[CrackedIce]

Aside for the fact that I feel that the AA capstone should allow you to use both elemental imbues together with DC imbues since dps damage goes way down when using DC imbues, I think that it should be a matter of course that the fifth tier improved elemental imbues should be a constant and work while using DC imbues. It is a fifth tier which is a waste when you are using DC imbues.

This becomes much clearer when the deepwood tier five builds use DC arrows and have access to all of their tier fives simultaneously. Why should an AA who specializes to tier five be penalized to not make use of their tier five abilities just because they want to use DC arrows?

[unbongwah]

Aside for the fact that I feel that the AA capstone should allow you to use both elemental imbues together with DC imbues since dps damage goes way down when using DC imbues, I think that it should be a matter of course that the fifth tier improved elemental imbues should be a constant and work while using DC imbues.

My suggestion in another thread was to make the DC-based imbues (i.e., Terror / Paralyzing / Smiting / Banishing) into secondary imbues rather than primary. So you always have your primary DPS imbue active (Force or one of the elemental arrows); then it's a question of whether you want DR-breaking (Metalline / Morphic / Aligned), a DC-based proc, or Shadow Arrows for +5% Doubleshot.

[CrackedIce]

My suggestion in another thread was to make the DC-based imbues (i.e., Terror / Paralyzing / Smiting / Banishing) into secondary imbues rather than primary. So you always have your primary DPS imbue active (Force or one of the elemental arrows); then it's a question of whether you want DR-breaking (Metalline / Morphic / Aligned), a DC-based proc, or Shadow Arrows for +5% Doubleshot.

I could definitely get on board with this.

Its really seems such a silly waste to have improved elemental arrows as one of two (other being slaying arrow) as the only reasons to go for this fifth tier when the reality is, if you are using DC arrows, you are not getting any benefit from that enhancement. (And if you had to choose between slaying arrows tier five and the other tier fives in Deepwood, its is not even a hard choice - hands down Deepwood is the better tier five, especially if you are speccing for DC arrows)

[Sanader]

1) Making 10k and Manyshot mutually exclusive would only "break" those builds in as much as they'd need to go to Fred and swap out one of those feats!

2) Once those two feats are made mutually exclusive the Devs can work out the exact power level they want each feat to reach {and yes it should be higher than current for only one} and balance them properly!

Monks get to use 10k
Rangers get to use Manyshot
Ranger 11/Monk 9 or 18/2 or 14/6 etc. probably chooses to use Manyshot.
Monk 11/Ranger 9 or any other Monk mainline build probably chooses to use 10K
The two feats could be level based with each having a base, going up at Class Lvl 8 and Class Lvl 11 and have extra bonuses in Core AA and Ninja-Spy Enhancements.
So a Monk 11/Ranger 6/Paladin 3 could go full Ninja-Spy and get the full benefit of 10K Stars
OR
A Ranger 11/Monk 6/Rogue 3 could go full AA and get the full benefit of Manyshot.
OR
An Elf Fighter 20 could go full AA and get a weaker Manyshot because he wouldn't have the Class Lvl 8+11 Ranger Buffs.

BUT
No-one would be able to take BOTH!
Removing the single biggest Multiclass-Pure discrepancy in the game!

This makes no sense. You can't do that with feats. You can do that with enhancments.
Make lvl 18 and lvl 20 ranger cores easy to compete with monk 10kstars. Problem solved if you wanna solve the 6monk multiclass. You can't have a class scaling feat. Those are called enhancments.
Same story for monk. Give them lvl 18 and 20 cores so that going for manyshot would have serious drawbacks.