Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[Severlin]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.

Trap Update

Constructed Traps will be have the following changes:

• The time to set a trap will change to 1 second.
• The time for a trap to arm after it has been set down will change to one second.
• The cooldown between setting traps will be changed to 8 seconds.
• The time traps persist for will be lowered to 60 seconds.
• New traps for higher levels will be introduced with higher damage. Players will be able to craft traps all the way up to level 27, with an appropriate increase in damage.
• Trap feedback will be sent to the player who set the trap. This means you will see damage numbers for your traps.

Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.

• Grenade DCs will be increased to 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 2) for heroic, and 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 3) for epic levels.
• New grenades with higher minimum levels and increased damage will be introduced.

Core Abilities

• Tanglefoot: Acid Damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. Both DCs are now 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier.
• Improved Detection: You also gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and 1 extra Sneak Attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons.
• Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Critical Multiplier increases to +2 for great crossbows.
• Hip Flask: The action boost portion of Hip Flask now also heals you for 10d6 and adds +10 to Dodge and Maximum Dodge when activated. The healing scales with 200% Ranged Power. The Dodge and Maximum Dodge last for 10 seconds.

Tier One

• Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
• Lacerating Shots: The Bleed scales with 200% Ranged Power.
• Thunderstone: The damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. The DC is now 12/16/20 + Rogue Level + Intelligence bonus.

Tier Two

• Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
• Wand and Scroll Mastery: (1/1/1 AP)

Tier Three

• Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
• Wrack Construct: Damage is increased to 3d6/6d6/9d6. Damage scaled with 200% Ranged Power.
• Ooze Flask: The DC is increased to 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier. Also reduces all types of the target's Damage Resistance by 10/20/30 with no saving throw. Damage now scales by 200% Ranged Power.

Tier Four

• Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
• Fletching. You are skilled at enhancing, salvaging and re-purposing your arrows, bolts, and throwing weapons. You gain 10 Ranged Power and your ammunition gains 50%/65%/80% returning chance.
• Leg Shot: Also does +2/+4/+6[W] damage.

Tier Five

• Sharpshooter: +3 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +6.
• Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.
• Time Bomb: Cooldown is now 20 seconds. Time to set the bomb is now very fast. Time before exploding is now 2 seconds. Saving Throw to negate knockdown now uses your Disable Device skill as the DC.
• Sniper: (2 AP): You gain 1 extra sneak attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 2 sneak attack dice and also gain +1[W]. Great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20.

Sev~

[burningwind]

you need to add epic level into the equation to make them epic viable. since monster save rise dramatically in epic~~

my propose is original dc + (epic level *2). so epic level and heroic level weight 50% 50%.

for example:

Thunderstone DC: 12/16/20 + Rogue Level + (epic level * 2) + Intelligence bonus.

so when level 30 introduce we will be look at around 60+ int mod, which make it useful in epic elite.

p.s. you should do the same for any other tree you are revamping. because most of the heoric stuff are useless in epic. and if you think epic equipment will make up the dc, you are wrong. it is the sole reason why assassinate is not popular. and please stop making super op equipment, it really kills the game. from 1~20 we only get 5 stats point, and you introduce +6 stats tome. serious? all you are doing is make character development worthless. that is why there are so many trap build with only one or two rogue level. because it is all about gear and not really about class ability.

edit: by making all ability gear dependent, basically you are telling people. you are complete useless until you reach level XX and farm OO, otherwise none of your ability make any sense. also if you don't scale epic level, you are discouraging people from multiclass.. if you scale epic level people can multiclass and still get these useful.

[Silverleafeon]

you need to add epic level into the equation to make them epic viable. since monster save rise dramatically in epic~~.

A strong valid point which needs to be address.
I mean really the CR of Monsters in the game is going thru the roof, I expect to see CR 100 monsters on EE level cap which makes dispel magic/spell reistance/turn undead/possible trap DC/etc difficult to program.

[i]Why are the CRs going out of control anyway???


Personally, I would like to see Epic Destinies increased to level 10.
{Using either my hybrid plan or the scaling plan or whatever.}

Then you need to apply ED levels to more than caster levels.
For example Shadowdancer should add its ED levels to the equation.
So you could have Rogue Levels + Epic Levels + Shadowdancer Levels ?

A druid's pet could have Druid Levels + Epic Levels + Primal Avatar Levels {of course then everyone needs to not use Summer Smoke which bugs out pet collars}.

[Silverleafeon]

Thank you, for updating traps levels and reducing times to set.
I appreciate that very much.

It seems you folks have answered past/future most all of my wish list.


You renaming sharpshooting. Is this a "stacks with everything buff?" I assume so since it seems untyped bonus?

I love the expansion of sharpshooting into all ranged weapons and the increase of damage with great Xbows. This will allow a greater variety in building.

Thank you for scaling into epics via melee power.

I'll leave the precise number theory to others, but overall bird's eye view looking nice to me.

[HatsuharuZ]

I like these changes, however the viability of ranged power scaling depends on how much you put in, so I can't comment on that.

There are 2 changes I'd like to see that would benefit repeater rogues, along with all crossbow and/or ranged users:

1) Increase the size of ammunition stacks that drop as random loot. 20 ammo per drop is not sufficient, especially since the magical ammo with the extra elemental damage can only be found in random drops and sometimes on the AH, making it hard to find the element one wants.

2) Please make the crossbow firing and reloading animations into a *single* animation that only requires one click, same as the bow animation.

[depositbox]

Looks good. Can see some actual builds using the tree.

[dualscissors]

Thanks for updating Tanglefoot and Thunderstone to have workable DCs and to be functional (one of them was broken).

This gives some CC options to all rogues, which was one of the glaring weak suits of the class when these features were bugged.

I can't sing the praises of heal scrolls once you hit Epic but the 1/1/1 AP cost will at least make using it as a fallback option affordable...the dev team might want to consider addressing (not saying OPing) one big problem that still remains. Damage taken in EH and EE will sabotage any chance to use heal scrolls since Concentration ranks aren't in line with the inflation on damage in the game. *Of course, one can always jump out of a fight, gear swap, click gear swap again if it doesn't take, UMD the scroll if you aren't being chased and whacked on, switch back to your weapon, then reenter the fight...but this really isn't an efficient way to heal or maintain DPS.

[Mryal]

I can't sing the praises of heal scrolls once you hit Epic but the 1/1/1 AP cost will at least make using it as a fallback option affordable...the dev team might want to consider addressing (not saying OPing) one big problem that still remains. Damage taken in EH and EE will sabotage any chance to use heal scrolls since Concentration ranks aren't in line with the inflation on damage in the game. *Of course, one can always jump out of a fight, gear swap, click gear swap again if it doesn't take, UMD the scroll if you aren't being chased and whacked on, switch back to your weapon, then reenter the fight...but this really isn't an efficient way to heal or maintain DPS.

Theres no fixing this one.I still say, complete removal of concentration checks on DDO is the only way.The system isnt meant for the reality we have.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Initial post removed.

This is a hard tree to comment on without doing testing.

[SealedInSong]

Theres no fixing this one.I still say, complete removal of concentration checks on DDO is the only way.The system isnt meant for the reality we have.

Instead, I just think that every 5 levels, you should get some modest multiplier to your concentration skill in defense of interruption. I.e.

lvl5 = *0.25 conc total
10 = *0.5

and linear progression. Testing to refine the formula would be good.

[Myrddinman]

At first glance, this looks like a decent start. For ease of comparison, would it be possible to present the entire tree with the changes in bold or different color. This way we won't have to keep going back and forth to the DDO Wiki (as awesome as it is) to reference the changes. I think it would create a more complete picture.

I appreciate the nudge to Great Crossbows...are there any plans to introduce more named ones, since there is only one (Oladren's) besides the crafted ones?

I am really looking forward to the discussions

[Aelonwy]

Wow. Now I'm definitely debating whether I should keep my arty pure. Mmmmm hard choices.

[Livmo]

Wow. Now I'm definitely debating whether I should keep my arty pure. Mmmmm hard choices.

Shadar-Kai with 6 levels arty and the rest rouge. You survive by wit and guile. Fun if you want the challenge. Improrved traps would help this build allot. I would love a net trap that can be deployed via a weapon to catch the Sleestaks with.

DDO Wiki:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Trapmaking

Here is Coldin's Guide:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/259276

The Order of Syncletica's Stealth Guide:
https://sites.google.com/site/ddostealthteamsix/

[Severlin]

Shadar-Kai with 6 levels arty and the rest rouge. You survive by wit and guile. Fun if you want the challenge. Improrved traps would help this build allot. I would love a net trap that can be deployed via a weapon to catch the Sleestaks with.

DDO Wiki:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Trapmaking

Here is Coldin's Guide:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/259276

The Order of Syncletica's Stealth Guide:
https://sites.google.com/site/ddostealthteamsix/

With the Sleestak reference I am truly disappointed that one of the links wasn't to a YouTube scene from the old Land of the Lost series.

Sev~

[Livmo]

With the Sleestak reference I am truly disappointed that one of the links wasn't to a YouTube scene from the old Land of the Lost series.

Sev~

Could not resist this one, although not original:

[btolson]

Core 18, Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Critical Multiplier increases to +2 for great crossbows.

I'd like to suggest that this be changed in some way.

Either break the boni up and distribute them throughout the tree (into t5 sharpshooter, 12core, elsewhere), or shift the entire package to 12core.

Boni can be split by bonus type (threat range in one place, multiplier in another, extra multiplier for great xbow in a third) and/or weapon type (xbow boni in one place, bow boni in a second place, thrown in a third place).

My concern is that with this huge package bonus @18, there will only be 3 species of mechanic going forward:
20 rogue
18 rogue/2 arti
6 rogue/14 pal

Shifting or distributing the boni will allow for a wider array of builds to be viable.

[Mryal]

Wow ,big changes.Im not comenting on traps since i have no experience on them.

Thunderstone and tanglefoot - Those are interesting, damage would sill be pretty poor on epics, usualy shooting an assorted ranged weapon would do more, i get that they can be used for CC thought.But i have a suggestion : Make them have no animation, but block them from beign used if charging a rune arm.The idea is if youre using a crossbow/great crossbow, people never get to experience the capstone of mechanic really, 2 arti is needed for rune arm use, not having a rune arm is too huge a loss.Allowing these to be used as a sort of replacement for rune arm shots would be great!

I love the versatility in the tree.The bonuses in great crossbow might make it viable, i have to say im eager to actualy try that on lamania.In fact a lot of this requires lamania testing for proper feedback.Its interesting to think that we might finaly have a viable ranged character that isnt tied to shooting multiple projectiles at once and can make full use of doubleshot.But at the same time the tree also mantains bonuses to other weapons making it still be good for splashing as it is now.

DCs of 10+rogue level+int are still low i'd say thought, consider adding some form of epic lvls in the process.Youre mostly sitting at at least -2 DC from splashing 2 arti with this alredy.

Sev, you mentioned 3rd arti tree and arti EDs and ranged pass, this tree mentions ranged power.Can we have an input on what else will come on this update? arti trees revamp? just the 3rd tree? ED? No trees at all for arti?

[SealedInSong]

Wow ,big changes.Im not comenting on traps since i have no experience on them.

Thunderstone and tanglefoot - Those are interesting, damage would sill be pretty poor on epics, usualy shooting an assorted ranged weapon would do more, i get that they can be used for CC thought.But i have a suggestion : Make them have no animation, but block them from beign used if charging a rune arm.The idea is if youre using a crossbow/great crossbow, people never get to experience the capstone of mechanic really, 2 arti is needed for rune arm use, not having a rune arm is too huge a loss.Allowing these to be used as a sort of replacement for rune arm shots would be great!

I love the versatility in the tree.The bonuses in great crossbow might make it viable, i have to say im eager to actualy try that on lamania.In fact a lot of this requires lamania testing for proper feedback.Its interesting to think that we might finaly have a viable ranged character that isnt tied to shooting multiple projectiles at once and can make full use of doubleshot.But at the same time the tree also mantains bonuses to other weapons making it still be good for splashing as it is now.

DCs of 10+rogue level+int are still low i'd say thought, consider adding some form of epic lvls in the process.Youre mostly sitting at at least -2 DC from splashing 2 arti with this alredy.

Sev, you mentioned 3rd arti tree and arti EDs and ranged pass, this tree mentions ranged power.Can we have an input on what else will come on this update? arti trees revamp? just the 3rd tree? ED? No trees at all for arti?

Hip flask is a cute capstone, but I also see very little reason to not splash for 2 arti. This might serve the devs insofar as rogue is f2p and arti is p2p. In any case, I'd still like to see a nice incentive or workaround.

I.e. let's say add Runearm Use feat as selectable by any class that has 8 natural ranks in UMD.

[Myrddinman]

You are aware the topic was the abilities that scale with 200% ranged power.

And where is that Ranged power coming from?

Not DPS

I am almost wondering if the intention would be to add Ranged Power to Ranged feats (PBS, Precise Shot, IPS, Rapid Reload...etc)...would be nice and inline with the fighting styles providing Melee Power.

I wondered this as well.

Also that Quiver is very interesting, could we have more like it. How about a bolt producing version and an epic version with better ammo? Could these produce larger quantities as well such as 200 units.

^ Yes please! We need more quivers (named and random) in general.

Ok but:
Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +2[W], a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cooldown 6 seconds)
+10 Positive Spell Power

Indeed. It is a very compelling reason to go 6 Ranger, along with the +15 meter SA range, +2 SA die, and free feats.

Which is still a very poor showing for something called Mechanic

Oh yeah and I know absolutely no ones said it yet <wink wink nudge nudge> but we need a few Named great crossbows...

^ Yep. Just wanted to bump this idea...again. We absolutely need named Great Crossbows!

Nope. moving it from 18 to 12 would be a mistake and way to powerful for 12 ability.

Also Let me point out that enhancement tree passes are targeted at making class viable not making it a good splash class. The benefits of a splash here and there are all fine and well, but asking for things like the proposed Core 18 to be bumped down, are just the first step for meta-gaining the class right back into irrelevance.

While I agree with all of this, the Mechanic Capstone is underwhelming and as most folks have already mentioned, and going 18 Rogue/2 Artificer will be a better option. So the tree is already promoting an almost automatic splash. I'm not advocating for moving it to the level 12 core, but at least there it would allow for more build variety, since most are going to splash any how.

[Saekee]

Indeed. It is a very compelling reason to go 6 Ranger, along with the +15 meter SA range, +2 . . .how.

Great point--the new bow builds though may want both 10k as well as improved evasion--my Twilight Bow build uses 6 monk/13 rogue/1 fighter elf as an ER version of twilight blade. 6 ranger becomes tricky--you can swap it out with monk but lose 10K; swap it out of the rogue levels for a 6/6/8 split which would be better as 9 monk (for movement speed and improved evasion)/6 ranger/5 rogue or even back to usual monkcher split of 12/6. At least the Twilight Bow split keeps the rogue flavor.

But I reiterate my desire to exclude bows from mechanic tree. Like mentioned above--arbalister/grenadier/saboteur.