Rogue - Assassin Changes

[CThruTheEgo]

I posted this earlier in the thread and didn't receive any confirmations.

The instant agro from all mobs in the room upon assassinating thing you are mentioning was something that I *formerly* experienced a couple months ago. However, after one of the updates or fixes, I am not experiencing this anymore. I would have said that it was fixed.

Hundreds of times now in Epic content I've assassinated mobs that are standing right next to other mobs. They don't even blink - just like it was long before. The whole room no longer auto agros after one of their buddies drop.

Is this complaint something assassins are still experiencing?! I don't see how unless Turbine covertly sent just me a valentine fixing the assassinate-agro problem.

My playtime has been limited recently and I've been focused on another character, so I haven't played my assassin in a couple of months. Next time I log in I'll test this to confirm. They've changed stealth/agro mechanics in the past without any notice or mention in release notes, so I wouldn't be surprised.

[IronClan]

Peraphs a bit off topic but cant not mention.


That alone alredy makes any heavy armor MRR setup better than an evasion based character.



This is just a bonus.

Now what if new content follows this trend? wich it probably will.I cant be the only one who sees that MRR is > evasion for the simple fact it works vs all and not vs one type of spell.

How many times is it going to have to be pointed out that MRR doesn't reduce force damage before you guys figure it out? At least Wizza can admit Evasion was still great a couple months ago, so he's only a small cognitive step away from realizing how ridiculous it sounds to say it's useless (made useless by something that wont even mitigate half the damage Evasion does, that's a neat trick). Sadly the Forum has no shortage of Forum DDO players. BTW neither the Liches nor the Deathlords cast only force. If you think that you're probably playing too much Forum DDO.

BTW MRR doesn't reduce Force damage.

PS. Still no

[dualscissors]

How many times is it going to have to be pointed out that MRR doesn't reduce force damage before you guys figure it out? At least Wizza can admit Evasion was still great a couple months ago, so he's only a small cognitive step away from realizing how ridiculous it sounds to say it's useless (made useless by something that wont even mitigate half the damage Evasion does, that's a neat trick). Sadly the Forum has no shortage of Forum DDO players. BTW neither the Liches nor the Deathlords cast only force. If you think that you're probably playing too much Forum DDO.

BTW MRR doesn't reduce Force damage.

PS. Still no

Giving people the benefit of the doubt - which is generally a good practice in life - it strikes me as an honest mistake to not realize that force/untyped damage is exempt. (Hopefully now that it's been pointed out here a couple times, it's clear.)

I made the mistake in thinking MRR affected Disintegrate too, until it was pointed out. My forums post count should be low enough that no one mistakes me as a "forums player."

The erroneous notion simply takes having a toon with low MRR that is getting chewed up by certain kinds of spells and incorrectly thinking that high PRR/MRR toons have an advantage with this particular spell (that they don't actually have).

[Nascoe]

Giving people the benefit of the doubt - which is generally a good practice in life - it strikes me as an honest mistake to not realize that force damage is exempt. (Hopefully now that it's been pointed out here a couple times, it's clear.)

I made the mistake in thinking MRR affected Disintegrate too, until it was pointed out. My forums post count should be low enough that no one mistakens me as a "forums player."

The erroneous notion simply takes having a toon with low MRR that is getting chewed up in a Disintegrate and erroneously thinking that high PRR/MRR toons have an advantage with this particular spell (that they don't actually have). No accusation other than that is necessary.

Sure, I don't think anyone should just talk someone down for a mistake. But when people are arguing that MRR and PRR are too strong and keep using spells damage that is not really affected to show how evasion isn't much good currently especcially in recent content, it DOES take the point made from being a realistic discussion towards just beating on an issue to make your point.

Afterall, most people give the impression that they know what they are talking about and have tried it, but when your point is then supported by something that doesn't actually affect it .... well, not a strong argument, is it. If you don't, then don't use that as an argument, and don't hop on a bandwagon set rolling by someone else.

[SamaelBael]

I'd be fine with one of these but not both. Both is too much imo. Alternatively, just add more melee power to the tree since it also affects sneak attack damage.

I disagree with the addition of melee power. SA can be used ranged too. How about melee&ranged power, similarly to the harper tree but +1/+3/+6 due to the missing spell power?

[brzytki]

I disagree with the addition of melee power. SA can be used ranged too. How about melee&ranged power, similarly to the harper tree but +1/+3/+6 due to the missing spell power?

Like it or not, but assassin is mainly, almost entirely, focused on melee. And he doesn't talk about harper-like enhancement line but about putting MP in cores because they are weak. We will be getting an MP line in the tree (Damage Boost changed to MP). Ranged Power will most likely be in the mechanic tree.

[CThruTheEgo]

I disagree with the addition of melee power. SA can be used ranged too. How about melee&ranged power, similarly to the harper tree but +1/+3/+6 due to the missing spell power?

I can see your point, but nothing about assassin really has anything to do with ranged. The tree is melee based so I'm not sure that ranged power really has a place. Plus, harper is currently the only source of enhancement based ranged power. I would expect it to be added to various trees with the ranged pass. I don't think they should be adding in ranged power piecemeal with the individual tree revamps. It should be done all at once for proper balance (not that balance has ever been achieved in DDO, but no reason not to keep trying, I guess). I would expect to find ranged power in the mechanic tree, whenever that one gets updated.

[Wizza]

How many times is it going to have to be pointed out that MRR doesn't reduce force damage before you guys figure it out? At least Wizza can admit Evasion was still great a couple months ago, so he's only a small cognitive step away from realizing how ridiculous it sounds to say it's useless (made useless by something that wont even mitigate half the damage Evasion does, that's a neat trick). Sadly the Forum has no shortage of Forum DDO players. BTW neither the Liches nor the Deathlords cast only force. If you think that you're probably playing too much Forum DDO.

BTW MRR doesn't reduce Force damage.

PS. Still no

You missed my point completely. The point is that Evasion is not that good anymore, not with all the absorptions and resistances we got, not with the new MRR system that makes you absorb damage even if you haven't evasion

Noone splashes Rogue or Monk for evasion anymore, they don't give a c*** about it for the above reasons. If I don't die on a 20 Reflex toon, that must mean something, precisely that spells (evadeable spells to be more precise) are not much of a danger

[redoubt]

Movement speed and sneak:
Make acrobats fast and assassins fast in sneak. Some good changes on this have already been taking place. Thank you. Because the cores are still lacking a bit you could add to each core:
+10% sneak speed
+10% chance to hide from tremor sense/blind sight while sneaking
+10% chance to activate switches/levers etc without exiting sneak.

Measure the foe:
Add 5% sneak speed per stack (yes, if you get all the sneak speed bonuses you will sneak faster than your normal movement, but these are assassins (just make sure it does not total to faster than the other fast movements). They should "appear" out of nowhere. Speed is key to this and also just to keeping up with the group in today’s game.) Have the stacks expire one at a time.

On Dodge:
Great work on light armor mastery, but Nimbleness needs to add to dodge cap with each stack. Expire ONE stack at a time (not all at once.) This will have assassins who seek out high dodge numbers floating in the 33-43 range. Here is how it would look:

Assassin goes into stealth at 33 dodge. Measure the Foe builds up and dodge goes to 43%. When the melee starts the assassin is pulled out of stealth and the MtF stacks begin to decay, but the Nimbleness stacks start to build. The assassin will likely bump briefly up to around 50% dodge as Nimbleness builds, but MtF has not completely faded. This is the time when the assassin needs it most as this is when the most mobs are still alive. Nimbleness caps out and MtF fades and the dodge number is back at 43%. Back into stealth before the next fight, nimbleness fades away and MtF takes over again. Back to the start.

On Damage:
As others have mentioned, bleed and venomed blades scale poorly.

Venomed blades:
reduce cost to 1 AP per
1d4/1d6/1d8 per 5 rogue levels, scales with melee power

Bleed them out takes too long to build up useful stacks. Drop the cooldown to 4 seconds. Increase bleed damage to (and still scales with melee power):
1d8 at rogue 5
1d10 at rogue 10
2d6 at rogue 15
2d8 at rogue 20

Killer needs to expire one stack at a time.

Execute: Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. If target is below 30% health, deal 500 damage. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)
Raising the % is good. Add a second check against the assassinate DC: if below 30% the attack triggers an assassinate attempt even if not in stealth. If not assassinated, deal 500...

Knife spec:
This is a very narrow category of weapons. Keep it narrow, but boost the bonus. Some options include:
+1W
+1 threat range (assassins are very good at making accurate hits)(This would be a total of +2 threat)
+1 multiplier (this would be a total of +2 now)(I think the first two options are better for an assassin than this one though.)

On Defense:
Light Armor Mastery changes are a good start.

Deadly Shadow:
25% chance to hide from See Invisibility and True Seeing

An assassin’s weak spot is enemy’s with See Invis and even more so, with True Seeing. Completely negating this would be a mistake, but a way to build some defense to it would be nice. (Sort of like fire elementals with protection from cold.)

On Assassinate:
As many have said a boost is needed, but only a small one. The discussed small bonus on items is a great way to do this. You could also add a SMALL bonus in the capstone:

Deadly shadow: add +10 hide/move silent. +2 INT (total +4), +1 Assassinate DC. -10% threat.


Outside the box:

This would be instead of the more mundane versions of increasing damage listed above. Adding them would be too much. (This is an idea posted by another that I build on.)

We used to have auto-crits on held mobs. Maybe something similar could be brought back for assassins. At the same time, it could not be wide open. Nothing that would make taking X levels of rogue the new FOTM. When we had auto-crits I made maiming rocksplitters for my casters and even my cleric. Held mobs were dead mobs. Not much is different today with held mobs though. A held mob is still a dead mob, but because all damage is boosted.

Assassins do not have a lot of ways to create a helpless state. They depend on others to create the helpless state and then pounce upon their victim. Within Knife Specialization you could add:

OPTION 1: You automatically crit on helpless mobs when using a dagger or kukri.

OPTION 2: +2 range/+1 multiplier on helpless mobs when using a dagger or kukri.

OPTION 3: you do 2x sneak attack damage to helpless mobs when using a dagger or kukri.

OPTION 4: Assassinate chance on helpless mobs similar to what the bard has, except the rogue can’t create the helpless state. Does not require stealth.

To help keep this from going overboard:
1. Assassins have poor crowd control and little means to produce a helpless state. It would need to stay that way, or narrow the range of states the auto-crit would apply too.
2. It has to stay the knives. Opening this up to other weapons would be too powerful and would set up a five rogue FOTM. People have complained that "knife spec" is too weak. This could be ONE way to boost it.
3. Heavy analysis of the actual math BEFORE going forward at all.
4. Any additional damage does not get to "double dip" with the +50% helpless damage already in the game. i.e. if you are getting auto-crits, you don't get auto-crits AND then 50% more on top of that.

[Erofen]

Why, oh why?

+2 DEX is meh for INT-based assassins, but it's ok for DEX-based ones (if there are still some of them, i guess F2P people), +4 reflex save is meh as well. There's nothing really appealing in the new capstone. You just added some marginal benefits and called it a day.

Im wondering this question but for a different reason.

The assassin tree is full of stuff that allows for dexterity, but they make the t5 that the tree is named after int based. Can this please work like some ED trees to use the best of the 2 or a multiselector? I dropped this t5 to splash more into Thief Acrobat, because my dcs just sucked. I don't want to be pigeonholed into using the new harper tree (yes I own it) just for that one ability to be decent.

[CrackedIce]

Movement speed and sneak:
Make acrobats fast and assassins fast in sneak. Some good changes on this have already been taking place. Thank you. Because the cores are still lacking a bit you could add to each core:
+10% sneak speed
+10% chance to hide from tremor sense/blind sight while sneaking
+10% chance to activate switches/levers etc without exiting sneak.

Measure the foe:
Add 5% sneak speed per stack (yes, if you get all the sneak speed bonuses you will sneak faster than your normal movement, but these are assassins (just make sure it does not total to faster than the other fast movements). They should "appear" out of nowhere. Speed is key to this and also just to keeping up with the group in today’s game.) Have the stacks expire one at a time.

On Dodge:
Great work on light armor mastery, but Nimbleness needs to add to dodge cap with each stack. Expire ONE stack at a time (not all at once.) This will have assassins who seek out high dodge numbers floating in the 33-43 range. Here is how it would look:

Assassin goes into stealth at 33 dodge. Measure the Foe builds up and dodge goes to 43%. When the melee starts the assassin is pulled out of stealth and the MtF stacks begin to decay, but the Nimbleness stacks start to build. The assassin will likely bump briefly up to around 50% dodge as Nimbleness builds, but MtF has not completely faded. This is the time when the assassin needs it most as this is when the most mobs are still alive. Nimbleness caps out and MtF fades and the dodge number is back at 43%. Back into stealth before the next fight, nimbleness fades away and MtF takes over again. Back to the start.

On Damage:
As others have mentioned, bleed and venomed blades scale poorly.

Venomed blades:
reduce cost to 1 AP per
1d4/1d6/1d8 per 5 rogue levels, scales with melee power

Bleed them out takes too long to build up useful stacks. Drop the cooldown to 4 seconds. Increase bleed damage to (and still scales with melee power):
1d8 at rogue 5
1d10 at rogue 10
2d6 at rogue 15
2d8 at rogue 20

Killer needs to expire one stack at a time.

Execute: Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. If target is below 30% health, deal 500 damage. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)
Raising the % is good. Add a second check against the assassinate DC: if below 30% the attack triggers an assassinate attempt even if not in stealth. If not assassinated, deal 500...

Knife spec:
This is a very narrow category of weapons. Keep it narrow, but boost the bonus. Some options include:
+1W
+1 threat range (assassins are very good at making accurate hits)(This would be a total of +2 threat)
+1 multiplier (this would be a total of +2 now)(I think the first two options are better for an assassin than this one though.)

On Defense:
Light Armor Mastery changes are a good start.

Deadly Shadow:
25% chance to hide from See Invisibility and True Seeing

An assassin’s weak spot is enemy’s with See Invis and even more so, with True Seeing. Completely negating this would be a mistake, but a way to build some defense to it would be nice. (Sort of like fire elementals with protection from cold.)

On Assassinate:
As many have said a boost is needed, but only a small one. The discussed small bonus on items is a great way to do this. You could also add a SMALL bonus in the capstone:

Deadly shadow: add +10 hide/move silent. +2 INT (total +4), +1 Assassinate DC. -10% threat.


Outside the box:

This would be instead of the more mundane versions of increasing damage listed above. Adding them would be too much. (This is an idea posted by another that I build on.)

We used to have auto-crits on held mobs. Maybe something similar could be brought back for assassins. At the same time, it could not be wide open. Nothing that would make taking X levels of rogue the new FOTM. When we had auto-crits I made maiming rocksplitters for my casters and even my cleric. Held mobs were dead mobs. Not much is different today with held mobs though. A held mob is still a dead mob, but because all damage is boosted.

Assassins do not have a lot of ways to create a helpless state. They depend on others to create the helpless state and then pounce upon their victim. Within Knife Specialization you could add:

OPTION 1: You automatically crit on helpless mobs when using a dagger or kukri.

OPTION 2: +2 range/+1 multiplier on helpless mobs when using a dagger or kukri.

OPTION 3: you do 2x sneak attack damage to helpless mobs when using a dagger or kukri.

OPTION 4: Assassinate chance on helpless mobs similar to what the bard has, except the rogue can’t create the helpless state. Does not require stealth.

To help keep this from going overboard:
1. Assassins have poor crowd control and little means to produce a helpless state. It would need to stay that way, or narrow the range of states the auto-crit would apply too.
2. It has to stay the knives. Opening this up to other weapons would be too powerful and would set up a five rogue FOTM. People have complained that "knife spec" is too weak. This could be ONE way to boost it.
3. Heavy analysis of the actual math BEFORE going forward at all.
4. Any additional damage does not get to "double dip" with the +50% helpless damage already in the game. i.e. if you are getting auto-crits, you don't get auto-crits AND then 50% more on top of that.

Most of these points are very grounded and shows a good understanding for what the assassin should look like.

I do not think that knife specs should have added Crit modifiers but should have the bonuses that original holy sword had. Think they were 1W and +2 enhancement bonus. Knives s already have low damage

[Nothingtoseehere]

[QUOTE=CThruTheEgo;5555282]I'd be fine with one of these but not both. Both is too much imo. Alternatively, just add more melee power to the tree since it also affects sneak attack damage.

I have no idea how it would balance out which would obviously need to be checked/done, was just throwing ideas out there. I was also concerned it might be too powerful , then I remembered that even with both you would still be way behind on the DPS curve. Though it could be say 150%, 200 was just a placeholder value, or just add a more melee power to the tree (I think most damage should come from SA though shouldn't fall into the trap of making all damage come from SA). As long as they get at least one but (and I think the crits on SA would be more interesting/unique) it would be a huge boon to rogues and well needed. If the power of the capstone would be considered too much then put one on the lvl 18 core and one on capstone. Both need high investment into both Rogue and Assassin so multiclasses dipping in for them won't be a thing and lethality core is very weak as is. In the end I don't mind if 1 or 2 of them are implemented, as long as it is done right and Rogue DPS gets a solid boost.

"I disagree with the addition of melee power. SA can be used ranged too. How about melee&ranged power, similarly to the harper tree but +1/+3/+6 due to the missing spell power?"
I disagree that any ranged power should be added to the tree (except maybe make the action boost a multi selector). Though perhaps having SA damage scale off Melee Power or Ranged Power, depending on which is higher would be a good change. Though that might better belong in the mechanic discussion.

[Qezuzu]

+10% chance to activate switches/levers etc without exiting sneak.

I would never want to rely on chance if I'm trying to solo a dungeon with minimum kills, I'd just keep using Flaming Sphere scrolls, glitterdust, etc. Either make it so you never break stealth when opening levers (i.e. make stealth boring and easy) or just don't.

Great work on light armor mastery, but Nimbleness needs to add to dodge cap with each stack.

Killer needs to expire one stack at a time.

These please

Execute: Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. If target is below 30% health, deal 500 damage. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)
Raising the % is good. Add a second check against the assassinate DC: if below 30% the attack triggers an assassinate attempt even if not in stealth. If not assassinated, deal 500...

The damage should scale with epic levels at least, if an insta-kill effect isn't added

Assassins do not have a lot of ways to create a helpless state. They depend on others to create the helpless state and then pounce upon their victim. Within Knife Specialization you could add:

You can use Balanced Attacks

..

[redoubt]

..

I must have missed it. Where in the assassin, or even rogue trees, is balanced attacks?

[Severlin]

Execute: Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. If target is below 30% health, deal 500 damage. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)
Raising the % is good. Add a second check against the assassinate DC: if below 30% the attack triggers an assassinate attempt even if not in stealth. If not assassinated, deal 500...

The damage should scale with epic levels at least, if an insta-kill effect isn't added

I've seen a couple of comments like this; the quoted ability already does scale into Epic. That's the whole point of the addition of Melee Power; so heroic abilities scale into epic. If you see "scales with X% Melee Power" that essentially means "scales into Epic levels."

Sev~

[Chaios]

However, if you really wanted to make rogues masters of dodge...

That was only a paraphrase of something another poster had written. Among the classes in general, Monks should be the masters of dodge, among the rogue enhancement lines, Acrobats should be the masters of dodge. Assassins should be masters of stealth. I agree with the person who wrote that Assassins should have Hide in Plain Sight somewhere in their enhancement tree. But I do not agree that Assassins should be the world's fastest sneakers. It makes more sense to me if they had a "Sneak sprint boost" rather than an always on sneak speed enhancement.

I will politely disagree...

I understand what you're saying about class homogenization, and I agree. It's not unreasonable to expect people to multiclass to obtain features that are more naturally associated with one class but that work well with a particular type of build or style of play. I agree with the idea that Assassins should find threat reduction easy to obtain, but I don't believe that adding permanent threat reduction should be a consequence of investment in the tree.

Regarding the 2wf discussion that is emphatically not happening in this thread. I notice some posters asserting that 2wf is "the natural" way for an assassin to fight. The natural way for an assassin to fight is not to fight, but to hide in the shadows until the target is within range, place a hand over the targets mouth, slip an icepick between the appropriate vertebrae, drop the body and fade into the shadows. The way of the assassin is to murder the unsuspecting, not to run wildly flailing with a weapon in each hand through brightly lit passages filled with witnesses.

In fact, there should probably be a bonus to assassinate associated with wielding only one weapon.

[Qezuzu]

I must have missed it. Where in the assassin, or even rogue trees, is balanced attacks?

It's an ability from Primal Avatar.

I've seen a couple of comments like this; the quoted ability already does scale into Epic. That's the whole point of the addition of Melee Power; so heroic abilities scale into epic. If you see "scales with X% Melee Power" that essentially means "scales into Epic levels."

Sev~

Well you are right, but mob HP scales up faster. What is an Assassin going to have in terms of melee power: 24 (x8 levels) 24 (x6 Shadow Dancer let's just say even tho it sucks) let's say 6 from Harper? so 54, and you get 30 of it right at lvl20. I forget what "scale 200%" means exactly, the damage adjust was either 200+MP/100 (execute does 1.5k) or 100+2xMP/100 (Execute does 1k). In either case, for an active ability with a 15s cooldown and a contextual requirement, and that requirement being "the mob is already pretty close to dead," with how it currently scales it's not an appealing ability (especially because the difference between under 30% and slightly above 30% can be a bit fuzzy).

This especially true with Venomed Blades. I only use it because it's a toggle. It's far more effective in heroic, where 1d8 is not the smallest fraction of a mob's HP. It's not supposed to be a powerful ability, I get that, but what I mean is that just because it technically scales into epics doesn't mean it's useful in epics IMO.

But I do not agree that Assassins should be the world's fastest sneakers.

Assassinate and Measure the Foe are the sole reasons in the game for why you'd want to use Sneak in a party in the first place so why not?

Regarding the 2wf discussion that is emphatically not happening in this thread. I notice some posters asserting that 2wf is "the natural" way for an assassin to fight. The natural way for an assassin to fight is not to fight, but to hide in the shadows until the target is within range, place a hand over the targets mouth, slip an icepick between the appropriate vertebrae, drop the body and fade into the shadows. The way of the assassin is to murder the unsuspecting, not to run wildly flailing with a weapon in each hand through brightly lit passages filled with witnesses.

In fact, there should probably be a bonus to assassinate associated with wielding only one weapon.

That bonus to single-weapon Assassinate would need to be pretty hefty because you need to use TWF to get double assassinates.

[draven1]

I've seen a couple of comments like this; the quoted ability already does scale into Epic. That's the whole point of the addition of Melee Power; so heroic abilities scale into epic. If you see "scales with X% Melee Power" that essentially means "scales into Epic levels."

Sev~

So, it's bugged now.
I saw only 500 dmg on execute on 54 melee power, lvl 28. Always 500 dmg.
When other melees can crit 3000+ or 6000+ on auto attack & 10k+ on smite, it's just useless now even it worked properly.
It also breaks attack animation chain, so, it's not the gain on DPS, actually, it's HUGE LOSS of DPS.

500 dmg on situational active attack is a joke like 2d6 dmg on shadowdancer EPIC MONENT.
That's why no one use 'touch of death' now, either.

I rather see execute affected by crits. 500*3(usual assassin crit multiflier)*1.5(melee power)=2250
This skill requires a lot of player's attention(a.k.a player skill) to use properly because of hp limitation.
But, still inferior than usual AUTO-ATTACK crits for blitzers

How about boosting 200% or 300% melee power & affected by crits on execute?

So, 500*3(melee power 200%) = 1500 on normal hit.
Or 500*4(melee power 300%) = 2000 on normal hit.

500*3(usual crit multiflier)*3(melee power 200%) = 4500 on crit hit.
Or 500*3(usual crit multiflier)*4.5(melee power 300%) = 6750 on crit hit.

[Full_Bleed]

As others have mentioned, bleed and venomed blades scale poorly.

Venomed blades:
reduce cost to 1 AP per
1d4/1d6/1d8 per 5 rogue levels, scales with melee power

At 6 AP, I don't take this thing. 8% of our action points. That seems like a pretty bad investment for the return.

Bleed them out takes too long to build up useful stacks. Drop the cooldown to 4 seconds. Increase bleed damage to (and still scales with melee power):
1d8 at rogue 5
1d10 at rogue 10
2d6 at rogue 15
2d8 at rogue 20

I take this to cycle in the 3W attack. The bleed damage (as it is right now) is pretty meaningless at higher levels.

We used to have auto-crits on held mobs. Maybe something similar could be brought back for assassins.

Assassins do not have a lot of ways to create a helpless state. They depend on others to create the helpless state and then pounce upon their victim. Within Knife Specialization you could add:

How bards and barbs are better at killing helpless targets than assassins, I'll never understand. I know we're not supposed to compare epeens, but thematically this just makes no sense. The assassins knowledge of anatomy coupled with precision strikes should be far superior.

[redoubt]

It's an ability from Primal Avatar.

Right... its a T3 twist, because as an ASSASSIN, most will be in Shadow Dancer because it gives INT.

Its a lot to assume that all assassin's can even afford a T3 twist. When that is the prevailing answer to assassin CC, I think its safe to say that assassin's do not have good CC abilities.

(I was just yanking your chain a little, hope I didn't offend.)