Warchanter Changes

[Rautis]

No, that's not true. Frozen Fury and Northwind are both T3 and T4 respectably and are easily obtainable. Bards will be able to stun things with Frozen Fury as well as a ridiculous insta-kill. A lot of people are saying to use perform DC for frozen fury and I disagree.

What do you think about Slap in the Face?

[Maelodic]

What do you think about Slap in the Face?

Neither Slap in the Face or Low Blow proc helplessness.

[mezzorco]

Neither Slap in the Face or Low Blow proc helplessness.

Slap in the Face stuns for 3 seconds with a Perform + d20 DC.

[elvesunited]

coup de grace has a long list of conditions that make it workable, ( trip, stun, dance, etc ) many that are difficult to defend against for non-red-named or some enemy that is of a immune type such as undead.

enthrallment (75% of the time thanks to bug), slap in the face( nothing in other hand), low blow(buckler in other hand), or just cast Otto's Irresistable Dance ( no save but spell resistance ). And that coup de grace doesn't work with fascinate is actually a bug ( in the known issue list ) they are working on fixing as coup de grace does not work on anything that wakes the enemy up upon being hit. Once that is fixed then guardbreaking or the sap feat ( no save ) will likely work as well.

[N-0cturn]

Slap in the Face and Low Blow are balanced because they have a 18 seconds cooldown and the effect only lasts for 3 seconds. It is some kind of Stunning Blow/Trip for the poor bard.

However since the Frozen Fury effect will be used in three different abilities (One with AOE) I do not think it would be wise to use Perform for a DC in this case. I would prefer if the devs change the DC similar to Stunning Fist.

Other than this, there still needs to be more incentive to go T5 in WC, more incentive to take the lvl 18/20 cores and the level 20 core need to be changed, so that is not longer attached to the annoying song animation from Inspire Heroism.

[Ultramaetche1]

Based on your and Player Council Feedback, here's the changes we're currently considering for Warchanter enhancements. Note that this is in a slightly different format than some previous editions; the original version is listed for many enhancements with changes below in red.




Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1: Multiselector: Seems strange to have a multiselector with such a different effect, what about a +4 Rage bonus to Con, with -2 AC?
  
  • Skaldic Rage: Expend a Song to fly into a heroic Rage, granting you a +4 Rage bonus to Strength and -4 penalty to AC. When Skaldic Rage ends, you become fatigued. Rage Duration: 180 seconds. Duration increases with effects that increase Song durations. Skaldic Rage doesn’t stack with Barbarian Rage.
  • Skaldic Constitution: +1 Constitution (passive)
    
  
  
• 5 AP, class level 3: Fighting Spirit: +10 HP. Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
  
  • Moved Weapon Training here (Martial Proficiencies)
  
  
• 10 AP, class level 6: Song of Heroism: Expend a use of Bardic Music to give the effects of the Greater Heroism spell to all nearby allies for 1 minute plus 6 seconds per Caster level. As a non-magical effect, this song cannot be removed by dispel magic or antimagic.
  Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
  Definitely like the introduction of additional +1 damage effects for the WC tree
  
  
  • Increase Duration
  
  
• 20 AP, class level 12: Fighting Spirit: +10 HP. Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage. What about moving full Base Attack Bonus here? Clerics and FvS get the ability from Warpriest at a T5 enhancement which is available by level 12, and considering that the WC tree is combat oriented I personally believe it would fit well here. Maybe leave the HP at it's current +10, if the BAB increase is moved here.
  
  • Upgrade to +30 HP
  
  
• 30 AP, class level 18: Victory Song: Toggle: You have full Base Attack Bonus.
  Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
  Since I'm proposing moving this to lv 12, how about we have something here like +20 HP, and +5% Doublestrike (stacking)?
  
  
  • Stretch goal: Make this a simple permanent, non-toggle ability.
  
  
• 41 AP, class level 20: Warmaster:
  
  • +10 HP. Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
  • When you Inspire Heroics, for 12 seconds both you and the targeted ally gain +5 Competence bonus to Attack, +5 Competence bonus to Damage, +25 Competence bonus to Physical Resistance and +50 Competence bonus to resist Acid, Cold, Electric, and Fire damage.
  • NEW:
    
    • +10 HP. Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
    • When you Inspire Heroics, for 2 seconds per point of Perform you posses both you and the targeted ally gain +5 Music bonus to Attack, +5 Music bonus to Damage, +20 Music bonus to Physical Resistance and +20 Music bonus to resist Acid, Cold, Electric, and Fire damage
    • 60 second cooldown

Tier One

• Inspired Bravery: Inspire Courage grants +1/+2/+3 to Attack and saving throws vs. Fear.
  
  • Stretch goal: Improve?
  
  
• The Poetic Edda. +1/2/3 Attack and Bard Songs.
• Enchant Weapons: Adds the spell Enchant Weapons as a level 1 Bard spell.
• Rough and Ready: +2/4/6 AC and +2/4/6 PRR. Since this tree is being looked at might as well voice my opinion about this: 6 PRR on a bard who will (most likely) lack other substantial sources of obtaining it seems rather lackluster, what about something like +3/6/10 ?
• Focused: +1/+2/+3 Concentrate, Intimidate and Jump. 3rd Rank: +1 Bard Song.

Tier Two

• Boast: (Song) Gain 10/20/30 temporary HP for 120 seconds. While you have these temporary HP you generate 50% extra threat and gain +1[W] weapon damage. 3rd rank: +1 Barbarian Rage use (if you have it).
  
  • New: Increase Temp HP, remove other aspects (leave +Rage use)
  • DPS is coming from other sources.
  
  
• Words of Encouragement: When you Inspire Courage, allies gain +10/20/30 temporary HP for one minute. +5/10/15 Positive Spellpower
  
  • Remove pre-req from Boast
  
  
• NEW: Arcane Shield Chant: Nearby allies gain +5 Music bonus to Energy Resistance with an additional +5 for every 6 bard levels you posses.
  
  • Always on aura
  
  
• Iced Edges: While Gathering Cold in a Skaldic Rage, when you score a critical hit you gain Breath of Frost. This can trigger up to once every 12/9/6 seconds. \\n\\nBreath of Frost: Your attacks deal +1d6 cold damage for three seconds.
  
  • NEW: Toggle: Your melee and ranged attacks deal 1d3/1d4/1d6 extra Cold Damage. How about 1d6/1d8/1d10? Rogue Assassins get Venomed Blades which is poison damage thus less enemies resist it, whereas with cold damage, there are many different enemies even throughout levelling that will resist this damage into nothingness. Even just a 1d4/1d6/1d8 to match Assassins would be a respectable improvement.
  • Comparable to Arcane Archer stances (but both Ranged and Melee).
  
  
• Gathering Cold: Toggle: Gain a +1/+2/+3 energy Resistance vs. Cold. When enemies deal you cold damage, you have a 20/40/60% chance to absorb some of that energy and gain Armor of Frost. Armor of Frost: You gain +1 stacking Cold Resistance and +1 stacking AC that lasts for 12 seconds. This effect can stack up to 5 times.
  
  • Cut completely
  
  
• Action Boost: Sprint: Activate this ability to receive a 35/40/50% Action Boost bonus to running speed for 20 seconds.

Tier Three

• Ironskin Chant: Grants DR 2/4/6/- to all nearby allies for 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Caster level.
  
  • New: Ironskin Chant: You and nearby allies gain DR 2/4/6/- and 2/4/6 PRR. 6 PRR on a bard who will (most likely) lack other substantial sources of obtaining it seems rather lackluster, what about something like +3/6/10 it's not a static reduction value thus retains its usefulness into epic levels.
  • Stretch goal: Always-on aura, no duration. Otherwise, increased duration.
  
  
• Obstinance: You gain +1 saving throws while below 80% health. Rank 2: Additional +1 to all saving throws while below 60% health. Rank 3: Additional +1 to all saving throws while below 40% health. +5/10/15 Positive Spellpower
• High Spirits moved here Keep the HP gating the same, but since this is a "risky" enhancement make it more powerful, something like +1/+2/+3 for the different HP levels for a total bonus of +1/+3/+6?
• Frozen Fury: Make a melee attack with +0.5/1/1.5[w] damage. Affected enemies must make a Fortitude save (10/12/14 + Charisma modifier + 1/2 Bard level) or become frozen solid for several seconds. The thought is cool (haha, get it?) but the DC on a WC will most likely fall behind with only a static 10/12/14. What if instead of changing the static value in front, make the bard level scale. IE: Tier One: 10 + CHA mod + Half Bard || Tier Two: 10 + CHA mod + Full Bard || Tier Three: 10 + CHA mod + One and one half Bard
• Northwind: While Gathering Cold while in a Skaldic Rage, vorpal Hits cause 1d8/2d8/3d8 additional Cold damage.
  
  • Moved to t4 and altered.
  
  
• Ability Score: Strength or Charisma

Tier Four

• Inspire Recklessness: Expend a use of Bardic Music to grant a +6% morale bonus to double strike chance and -10% fortification to all nearby allies for 1 minute plus 6 seconds per level. This effect will be removed if the target enters combat expertise, defensive fighting, or a defensive stance. As a non-magical effect, this song cannot be removed by dispel magic or antimagic.
  
  • Stretch goal: New version: Reckless Chant: You and nearby allies gain +6 Music bonus to Universal Spellpower and +6 Music bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot.
    
    • Always-on
  
  
• NEW: Multiple Choice:
  
  • Expeditious Chant: You and nearby allies gain +20% Action Boost bonus to Movement Speed.
    
    • Always on
    
    
  • Rallying Cry: Action Boost: You and all allies within range of your songs gain +10/15/20% movement speed and a +1 Morale bonus to Saving Throws for twenty seconds. This ability can be used while feared, and dispels fear effects.
    
    
    • Lowered from Tier 5.
  
  
• Armor Mastery moved here
• High Spirits: Your spirits are always high, and you are immune to Crushing Despair, Waves of Fatigue, and Waves of Exhaustion. Rank 2: You are also immune to Sleep. Rank 3: You are also immune to fatigue, including from Skaldic Rage. +5/10/15 Positive Spellpower
  
  • Moved to Tier 3.
  
  
• Northwind: Moved to here and changed to: I've got 3 ideas for this one: 1) % chance on any hit, no cooldown 2) Every critical hit but has cooldown, 3) Every Vorpal, no cooldown
  
  • Frozen Fury chance on Vorpal hits
    
    • May have % chance or cooldown.
  
  
• Ability Score: Strength or Charisma

Tier Five

• Armor Mastery (2 AP 1 rank) Gain medium armor proficiency and the ability to cast arcane spells in medium armor without arcane spell failure.
  
  • MOVED to Tier 4.
  
  
• Rallying Cry: Action Boost: You and all allies within range of your songs gain +10/15/20% movement speed and a +1 Morale bonus to Saving Throws for twenty seconds. This ability can be used while feared, and dispels fear effects.
  
  • Moved to tier 4
    
  
  
• Howl of the North: (2 AP) Toggle: -5 Attack and +1 critical damage multiplier on attack rolls of 19-20 with your Trained Weapon while Gathering Cold and in a Skaldic Rage.
  
  • New: +1 critical damage multiplier on attack rolls of 19-20
  • Removed downsides and requirements.
  
  
• Warchanter Weapon Training: (2 AP) Grants martial weapon proficiency.
  
  • Moved to Level 3 Core
    
  
  
• NEW: Frozen Cleave: 360 degree cleave that freezes everyone you hit (per Frozen Fury), +2/4/6[W] Frozen Fury has +5 DC while using this attack
  
  • Longish cooldown.
  
  
• NEW: Return to Battle: Raise Dead SLA. Costs 1 Song.
• NEW: Possibilities include:
  
  • Muster: Teleport SLA
  • Death Pact SLA
    
  
  
• NEW: Kingly Recovery: Target ally or self heals 10,000 HP. Removes ability score damage, death penalty effects, negative levels, and the conditions blinded, dazed, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, poisoned, and stunned. 3 uses per rest.

Personal thoughts about the tree in GREEN

[thunir]

Why would that solve anything? It just creates a situation where now bards need multiple stats at huge numbers, and yes it would hurt bards in general. It does not address that the DC is too low it just changes how you get to the too-low number.

Look if the idea was to make it competitive with spells and stunning fist, you have to look at what those numbers go up to. Which is at a minimum 60+ against fort. Frequently 70+ when fully kitted out. Your formula doesnt even come close. You have a couple options, which you need to consider, rather than just clinging to your position.

1) Consider what me and a few others have posted, and raise the base DC slightly (my suggestion was up to 20+mods, or around 55 tops, with the full enhancement line). This does NOT make it EE viable, but at least makes it EH viable. Without at least this much help, it will do nothing ever at 20+. I recognize and understand not everything can, or even should, be cap viable. But T5 enhancements which are the culmination of a PRE flavor line like this one should be.

2) Use full bard level. That takes the DC up to the 50s for most bards, and 61 for the "max cha in a vacuum" bard. Its also somewhat nice in that it shifts the burden of DC well beyond lvl 3 or 5 or whatever when the enhancement is available, and onto the class itself. Anyone with at least 10 bard levels gets whatever kind of DC you felt is appropriate now, meaning multiclass is supported in your eyes, while full bards get an ability they can use at cap and beyond. Not EE reliable, but it may occasionally work there, making it worth hitting the button at least.

3) Make it Perform based. We saw a lot of this in Swash, no reason it cant work here. It doesnt make the most sense fluff wise, but letting out a battle roar while you slash things and freeze them is better than slashing things and not freezing them no matter how hard you try. This will solve the problem straight up, as Perform DCs remain viable for the entire game thus far.

4) Add something in the Cores, such as +1 to Frozen DC at 6, 12, 18, and maybe +2 or +4 or something with the capstone. Similar result as option 1, but changes how you get there (requiring bard levels while keeping half level in formula, but takes the burden off buying the whole enhancement line itself for cores instead). Again, this is not EE viable, just EH.

5) Change it back to Reflex. I have no idea why it was changed to Fort or what the design goal was with that, but making it Reflex will help make a lower DC viable. It may not freeze evasion mobs, but those tend to have low other saves a bard can target (like will). The things bards need most help with is against caster type mobs which have high will (and often fort too) saves, and packs of brute mobs which are going to kill them too quickly in melee which have high fort saves. By targeting Ref, this ability gives them a needed way to combat those threats, by freezing casters or locking down brutes. Just putting it on Reflex again is going to mitigate the need for a high DC.



Actually, Stunning Fist is half character level, and doesnt care how much monk there is one bit.

But besides that, having Tactical boosts work on this is a terrible idea. +Tactics is only available on a few items, and makes itemizing a bard even harder. Especially when they are very likely to have zero other feats or abilities invested in tactics anything. They have no incentive to trip, sunder, stun, etc... and even if they did can rarely invest enough into Str to make that viable either. Its like adding more and more costs to this ability to try and make it work. Saying "well, if you want to freeze mobs all you gotta do is invest in tactics gear (and maybe enhancements if youre up for a race change), I know bro but hear me out, then you just also max str with your max cha and add stunning blow, and you get TWO abilities with mediocre DC! Whoa!" is NOT going to make anyone roll up a WC.

You appear to keep posting as if the DC is fine, its not. Sor/Wiz might run a (10 base, 9 spell level via heighten, 2 focus feats, 2 item, 20 for 50 int/cha) 43 at lv20. Brds can do similar here (16 base, 10 for brd 20, 20 for 50 cha) or 46. Thats why you think its competitive. What you dont realize is that Sor/Wiz also has to stack Past Lives (1-4 dc depending on school), Epic Destinies (+3-6 depending on twists), better items (up to +6 item and +2 aug by cap), may have to spend Epic Feats for more int/cha (another +1-2 there), has Enhancement Lines which add to their DC (upwards of +5-6 for Lich PMs on necro, a Fort centric one). And still, after all that, frequently has to debuff mobs (solid fog for ref sorc stuff, crushing will for will based, energy drain and symbol of death for fort based). That leaves bards WAY behind, because they have no way to increase this with feats, enhancements, past lives, destinies, items, etc etc etc.

The DC is not fine, and you need to fix it, and trying to add tactics or change it to con based or something else is not a fix. It just shuffles the problem around, often making it worse because those are even less supported than Cha. I dont know how else to say it. WC as a tree is great. I said so in my other post in this thread. I typed prolly 500-1000 words about how awesome the bulk of the tree was. But I cited there, and here, along with everyone else whos posted, that this DC is too low. What else do you need me to show you to realize that and actually adjust it some? Put it back on Ref, tweak the DC formula so theres a bit more growth as you invest in the tree, or swap it to Perform. Problem solved. Its nothing anyone else cant do, even other bards (singers get cha based mass hold, swash gets perform based stun, WC can have a combo of those two). Shouldnt need to be this much back and forth over it.

I hope someone is listening.

[bbqzor]

I can't think of any DC boosts that would apply to stunning fist and not apply to Frozen Fury. Only cause for different DC would be differences between max stats

Mostly yes. There are some things like level difference (iirc, stunning fist goes up with epic levels since character level, frozen wouldnt since epic levels arent bard levels, and how this impacts multiclassing), probable past lives (most wc probably dont have +3 dc from fighter lives sitting around, I know tons of monks who do), destiny options (monks can sit in gmof easily, wc not so much), and potentially race (dwarf and wf and horc arent the most popular bard races with the cha penalty), that will lead to some measure of practical difference in EE (where the last few dc matter).

Thats the sort of stuff where the bard is very likely to wind up 10ish dc (call it 2 for stance, 3 gmof, 4 epic levels, 1 from past lives or stat differences or cap going to 30 or what not... more depending on how reasonable you feel past lives or race changes done in light of a change are) down... I know I am generalizing here but its what will stop the ceiling below monk. That said, the gap isnt such a large one (tactics basically puts it at spellcasting dc range, but not to monk fist range), but I dont expect bards to be able to build around one ability as tightly as monks who get a whole group of things for the costs, as they would begin to lose ground in other areas (like spellcasting or feats for ED feat, etc).

Discussing how DC changes to this ability hurt Bards puts a smile on my face. I once saw a bard succesfully use this ability in Necro 1. That's the only time this thing has changed my play experience after enhancement pass.(and I play quite often) Whichever way this ability works after changes it's probably a buff. I would like to see this as an ability that can be made to work in any content if built for it. Build diversity is one of the reasons I enjoy this game.

And yes. Discussion when people have their ducks in a row is exactly what is helpful about forums. If multiple of us are saying "DC is low, gotta go up" and we are all seeing the same kinds of cap or cost issues (even post change it could be more, and those changes have huge costs attached to even get that high), its more likely there are few or no mistakes.

I think WC having area cc cleave is not only thematic with the flavor (icy skald warrior poet wading in), AND the pre concept (support focused, freezing a group of mobs is a cool way to support ppl), AND does not do anything new or op (singers get mass hold, casters have mass hold, sound burst running off cha/wis gives paladins/sorcs/monks/fvs etc mass stun... including, likely, bards)... but its awesome! So for anyone to spend AP on it, reinventing the wheel in a cool way for their guy, it needs to work. So it should work. I hope its fixed up to be something people look for WC to bring to the table.

[Scrabbler]

[*]NEW: Multiple Choice:

• Expeditious Chant: You and nearby allies gain +20% Action Boost bonus to Movement Speed.
  
  • Always on

Oh boy, a passive 20% movement speed is absurdly powerful. Especially since this class already gets passive speed boosts (Swashbuckler tier2, which all Bards can afford). But even without the Swashbuckler effect, this thing would be crazy strong. A player would have to be crazy to pick the other multiselector option instead of this.

Hint: The purpose of "Action Boost" typed bonuses is for temporary boosts...

[Scrabbler]

[*]Frozen Fury: Make a melee attack with +0.5/1/1.5[w] damage. Affected enemies must make a Fortitude save (10/12/14 + Charisma modifier + 1/2 Bard level) or become frozen solid for several seconds.

Adding half Bard level to the DC is nice, and something that should be considered for other enhancements in other classes. But I strongly suggest you also add half Epic level to DC. (Maybe conditional on being in an Arcane destiny, maybe not).

That would let it progress similarly to Monk Stunning Fist, which keeps growing DC through Epic advancement (as long as you stayed pure Bard, which is a limitation Monks don't have). Of course you should also consider adding Sunder items or Transmution focus to the DC...

[Scrabbler]

I bet you guys can figure out how to make your CON even, even with this (and other Enhancement sources of CON in general). +1 CON, passively, is one of the strongest first core ability, so we're not likely to up this.

I sorta dislike the +1 CON option because it's primary function is as a gift to caster/healer/swashbuckler Bards, and not something Warchanters would be as likely to use. Non-melee Bards will absolutely pick up the +1 Con for some hitpoints, as will those using Different Tact. But for actual Warchanters it's harder to take, and the Constitution would interfere with a defining feature...


PS. Do you have a comment on a feature that's been requested: Tier 5 Warchanter allowing you to cast Bard spells while under Barbarian Rage?

[Silverleafeon]

Oh boy, a passive 20% movement speed is absurdly powerful....

Enough to make a player dizzy...lol...

Hey, I am pushing the weak spots and hanging on to the good ones when I can.

Hoping to see an additional ally fast healing aura maybe with healing amp {music type} of Bard caster level / 2
or the like added.

Also pushing for some thematic flair, stirring up ideas backstage, hoping for some to inspire the Devs.

[Vargouille]

Tier 5 Warchanter allowing you to cast Bard spells while under Barbarian Rage?

We're explicitly not looking to strengthen the Barbarian-Warchanter connection. We're not looking to remove what Warchanters currently get, but we're not trying to force Warchanters to take Barbarian levels to feel optimal (nor vice-versa).

[Scrabbler]

We're explicitly not looking to strengthen the Barbarian-Warchanter connection.

Ok, but I think that's a combination that could use some boosting. Not nearly as much as Kensei-Monk, which takes it way too far (since a Kensei without Monk levels is doing it wrong). But it would be nice if Warchanter-Barbarian basically made sense.

Currently the reason to splash Bard on a Barbarian is for Swashbuckling stance (if you want to SWF). And the reason for Bard to take Barb is for running speed. Both of those motivations are pretty slim and entail only 1 or 3 levels of the class... and notably, they're based on Barb-Bard, Barb-Swash, or Barb-Spellsing synergy. There's no substantial game mechanic that lets Barbarian and Warchanter specifically work together in a character build.


Classes like Fighter or Ranger who splash Bard levels at least get some fast UMD from it, but Barbarian practically doesn't, since the Rage feature prohibits most UMD functions. Thus Bard levels make less sense for Barbarians than for other warrior classes. I don't see a problem with relaxing those kinds of restrictions (at least for builds dedicated into Warchanter)


EDIT:
Look at it thing way. If a Bard build wants to take 1-2 levels of another class to get more Strength and weapon damage, what should he pick? The correct answer is Cleric or FVS. Barbarian just doesn't work for that purpose, and that's bad. If Warchanter could cast spells during Rage (and also added Bard levels into Rage duration), then that would still probably turn out weaker than the Cleric strength buff overall... but at least it'd be something in the desired direction.


EDIT 2:
Thinking about Cleric splashes reminded me of a really good ability to add to Warchanter tier 5, core 4, core 5, or capstone: Something that gives an Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma mod. No need to explain why that'd be great, right?

[Fefnir_2011]

We're explicitly not looking to strengthen the Barbarian-Warchanter connection. We're not looking to remove what Warchanters currently get, but we're not trying to force Warchanters to take Barbarian levels to feel optimal (nor vice-versa).

Some sort of bonus for TWF/THF Warchanters to give us a reason to stay as bards would be nice. It doesn't necessarily have to be cross-class synergy.

Spellsingers are getting better at DC casting. Swashbucklers are the best SWF and are looking like they may become the best melee option for bards. Meanwhile, Warchanters are getting better at... healing(which is traditionally a Spellsinger thing) and buffing (which is impossible to suck at as a bard)? Either I've missed the point of Warchanter for two years by playing a bard who swings a mean axe, or you're reducing the capabilities of current Warchanters by taking the enhancements in another direction. The phrase "proxy nerf" is pointless and vague, but if everyone else is getting better at what they do to combat the rise in power needed for day to day questing, what else would you call what this heralds for non-SWF melee bards?

I guess that's all fine and dandy if you're looking to take Warchanter in a new direction. But I hope for my bard's sake you're going to introduce a War Reaver/Dirge Singer tree so Warchanters who fit the current status quo aren't left out in the cold.

[BinyaminTsadik]

I'm sorry, but bards are already Waaaay to much about watching the buff timers and adding buffs to other players. I would like to see warchanter have a lot more added to inspire courage and have less independent buffs.

1. Add a bard effect to glancing blows as an option
2. Keep the medium armor proficiency but give a -30% spell failure instead of "no spell failure in medium armor" this will have more synergy more with other builds.
3. The capstone is horrible. There are so many better things that "Warmaster" can and should be. Please avoid short buffs as much as possible. PLEASE! AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE!! And especially single target buffs....
4. Give them an Intimidate (DC based on perform skill) that debuffs the enemy's BAB somewhere in T1 or T2 that expends the use of a song.
5. I hope you realize how silly it is to have the "Greater Heroism" AOE song effect and still keep inspire heroics. Could you not merge the two songs, a 5 minute "Greater Heroism"+"Inspire Heroics" and make it AOE.

6. Better short AOE buff skills would be:
a) a Haste boost song 30 seconds that applies to everyone in range.
b) Damage boost 30 second song AOE
c) Displacement buff for 30 seconds AOE

[droid327]

We're explicitly not looking to strengthen the Barbarian-Warchanter connection. We're not looking to remove what Warchanters currently get, but we're not trying to force Warchanters to take Barbarian levels to feel optimal (nor vice-versa).

So make it even broader than that...give sufficiently-invested WCs (T5?) the ability to cast spells under *any* condition that usually disallows it - Rage, Antimagic, Feeblemind, that one undead's debuff for Divine spells, etc. The "lore" being that a Warchanter of sufficient skill, having trained at using his magic in the throes of physical combat, can weave any spell into Song magic which is unaffected by things that interfere with Arcane or Divine magic. Some high-level raid boss effects excepted, of course, as necessary (not sure if there are any current bosses that block casting).

That'd definitely give Warchanters a special role in combat against Beholders and other high-danger targets, and allow for synergistic Bard-Barb splits without making it effectively a cross-class tree.

[Caprice]

The new tree looks much improved. However I was really hoping to see something that incentivizes combat styles other than SWF. As it stands Warchanter is going to make SWF Bards even better, but does not provide any unique benefits to THF, TWF, or ranged Bards. So perhaps I am being utterly crazy here, but how about something like this for Warchanter:

Tier 5:
NEW: Multiple Choice: (2 AP, 1 rank)
Dirge of Furor: You gain access to the Frenzied Berserker enhancement tree.
Sword Dancer: You gain access to the Tempest enhancement tree.
Singing on the Wind: You gain access to the Arcane Archer enhancement tree.
Circus Performer: You gain access to the Thief Acrobat enhancement tree.

There's a precedent in Elf Arcane Archer, and this would give access to improved THF, TWF, and Ranged combat options for Warchanters. In this case the Bard has already taken tier 5 in Warchanter so (s)he would be locked out of tier 5 in the selected tree, which keeps these from being too good. AP are a scarce resource so forcing the Bard to delve into another tree to improve their combat style requires sacrifices in the other Bard trees, which provides some balance. I would think that requiring higher minimum levels like Elf Arcane Archer would make sense too, although the tier 5 lockout is more important and as a tier 5 ability the Bard has to be level 12 already before taking this so that may not matter as much.

I thought about adding one of the Fighter trees in too but discarded that idea. The Kensei concept doesn't seem to fit the Bard archetype very well, and Stalwart Defender may be too good alongside Swashbuckler.

Also, I am not a fan of Kingly Recovery. I realize that you want to do things that are easy to code so as to get as much done as possible in as short a time as possible, and reusing the Unyielding Sovereignty code is easier than doing something new, but Warchanters could use something a bit more unique for their tier 5s. KR and US are slightly different since Bards would get charges rather than US's long cooldown, but this is essentially a copy of a free feat for many Clerics and Paladins, and of a tier 3 Radiant Servant enhancement.

[Seikojin]

We're explicitly not looking to strengthen the Barbarian-Warchanter connection. We're not looking to remove what Warchanters currently get, but we're not trying to force Warchanters to take Barbarian levels to feel optimal (nor vice-versa).

I can definitely see the need to make it something that is independently worth it and good if you have both.

Like Caprice is mentioning, I think Swashbuckler should be your swf tree, and warchanter should have its focus be twf and thf. I am sure though, that thf in general needs more drive for it. Everyone gets a thf weapon, but not many people take the feats due to how little they give.

For thf in general, I think it should be changed to the following, much more simple formula...
No feat: Two handed fighting weapons get 5% of their damage in glancing blows (both main weapon damage and any effects)
Two handed fighting: +20% to the 5% base added to glancing blows, making it do 25% total on glancing blows. Get 1.5 times str to damage.
Improved two handed fighting: Add 20% more, totaling 45% in glancing blows. Get 2 times str to damage
Greater two handed fighting: Add 20% more, totaling 65% in glancing blows. Get 2.5 times str to damage.

Then hopefully in enhancements, past lives, and destinies, you can get that other 35%, so you have 100% damage in glancing blows. Make the epic feat get that last set of percentages, and the steps from 65 on should be in 5's or 10's. No more secondary rolls to determine if an effect procs; it just does less damage and scales as you take feats.

[thunir]

The new tree looks much improved. However I was really hoping to see something that incentivizes combat styles other than SWF. As it stands Warchanter is going to make SWF Bards even better, but does not provide any unique benefits to THF, TWF, or ranged Bards. So perhaps I am being utterly crazy here, but how about something like this for Warchanter:

Tier 5:
NEW: Multiple Choice: (2 AP, 1 rank)
Dirge of Furor: You gain access to the Frenzied Berserker enhancement tree.
Sword Dancer: You gain access to the Tempest enhancement tree.
Singing on the Wind: You gain access to the Arcane Archer enhancement tree.
Circus Performer: You gain access to the Thief Acrobat enhancement tree.

There's a precedent in Elf Arcane Archer, and this would give access to improved THF, TWF, and Ranged combat options for Warchanters. In this case the Bard has already taken tier 5 in Warchanter so (s)he would be locked out of tier 5 in the selected tree, which keeps these from being too good. AP are a scarce resource so forcing the Bard to delve into another tree to improve their combat style requires sacrifices in the other Bard trees, which provides some balance. I would think that requiring higher minimum levels like Elf Arcane Archer would make sense too, although the tier 5 lockout is more important and as a tier 5 ability the Bard has to be level 12 already before taking this so that may not matter as much.

I thought about adding one of the Fighter trees in too but discarded that idea. The Kensei concept doesn't seem to fit the Bard archetype very well, and Stalwart Defender may be too good alongside Swashbuckler.

Also, I am not a fan of Kingly Recovery. I realize that you want to do things that are easy to code so as to get as much done as possible in as short a time as possible, and reusing the Unyielding Sovereignty code is easier than doing something new, but Warchanters could use something a bit more unique for their tier 5s. KR and US are slightly different since Bards would get charges rather than US's long cooldown, but this is essentially a copy of a free feat for many Clerics and Paladins, and of a tier 3 Radiant Servant enhancement.

Best Suggestion Ive heard so far.