Spellsinger Changes

[Vargouille]

Based on your and Player Council Feedback, here's the changes we're currently considering for Spellsinger enhancements. Note that this is in a slightly different format than some previous editions; the original version is listed for many enhancements with changes below in red.

Important related changes:

• Shout: "Emits an ear-splitting yell that deals 4 to 6 Sonic damage per caster level to all targets in its path. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage. D&D Dice: Deals 1d3+3 sonic damage per caster level, up to caster level 15."
• Greater Shout: "Emits an ear-splitting yell that deals 4 to 6 Sonic damage per caster level and stuns targets in its path. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage and negates the stun. D&D Dice: Deals 1d3+3 sonic damage per caster level, up to caster level 20."
• Shout's range has been increased to match Greater Shout and costs 15(?) spells points.
• Greater Shout now costs 30(?) spell points.

Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1:
  
  • Spellsinger: Each AP spent in Spellsinger grants +1 Universal Spell Power. Each innate ability after this one grants +1 Diplomacy, Listen, Perform, UMD and 2% critical chance with sonic and healing spells.
  
  
• 5 AP, class level 3:
  
  • Ooze Song: Fascinate now affects Oozes.
  • +1 Bard Spell Caster DC
    
  
  
• 10 AP, class level 6:
  
  • Music of the Dead: Fascinate now affects Undead .
  • +1 Bard Spell Caster DC
  
  
• 20 AP, class level 12:
  
  • Music of the Makers:Fascinate now also affects Constructs.
  • +1 Bard Spell Caster DC
    
  
  
• 30 AP, class level 18:
  
  • Virtuoso: You regenerate 1 Song every 5 minutes. +2 Songs per rest. +20% bard song duration.
  • +1 Bard Spell Caster DC
  
  
• 41 AP, class level 20: Maestro:
  
  • +4 Charisma
  • +25 Universal Spellpower
  • +2 Songs per rest.
  • Heal and Wailing Banshee are added to your Bard Spellbook.
  • Increased from +2 Charisma, +10 Spellpower
    

Tier One

• Haunting Melody: You rework Fascinate with haunting notes, intoxicating yet unnerving. Fascinated creatures are Haunted for 20/40/60 seconds. Haunted: -2 on all Saving Throws, Skill checks and attack rolls.
• Lingering Songs: Your bard songs last 20/40/60% longer.
• Studies multiple choice:
  
  • Magical Studies: +30/+60/+100 SP total; 3rd rank Gain the Magical Training feat to gain echoes of power. (Still only total +100 SP.)
  • Musical Studies: +1/2/3 extra Songs per Rest
  
  
• Wand Heightening: Adds +1/2/3 to the save DC's of your offensive wands.
  
  • CUT: Merge into Tier 2 Wand & Scroll Mastery
  
  
• NEW Sonic Blast SLA: Blasts an enemy with loud high-pitched sounds, dealing 1d2+2 sonic damage plus 1d2+2 sonic damage per 2 caster levels. (Maximum sonic damage 5d2+10.) The target must make a successful Will save to avoid be dazed for a short period of time, or until they take damage.
  
  • Cooldown and SP cost TBD
    
  
  
• Charlatan: +1/2/3 Concentration, Haggle and Perform.

Tier Two

• Sharp Note: When you Inspire Competence, affected ally gains ‘Sharpened’ for 20/40/60 seconds. Sharpened: Your attacks bleeds the target. Bleed stacks up to 5 times.
  
  • Increase Duration (several minutes) Stretch goal: Possibly switch to party-wide buff?
    
  
  
• New Multiselector:
  
  • Flicker: When you are damaged you have a 5% chance of turning invisible for 2/4/6 seconds.
  • NEW: Willful: +1/2/3 Will Saving Throws
    
  
  
• Inspired Flicker: When you Inspire Competence on an ally, they gain Flicker for four minutes. Flicker: When you are damaged you have a 5% chance of turning invisible for 2/4/6 seconds.
  
  • Cut completely
  
  
• NEW: Multiple Choice:
  
  • Suggestion SLA: Influences the actions of an enemy, allowing you to suggest it to fight as your ally for 30+2 seconds per caster level. A successful will savenegates this effect.
  • Stretch Goal: Another SLA choice here (probably damage based).
  
  
• Wand and Scroll Mastery: +(25/50/75)% effectiveness of your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells.
  
  • Combined with Wand Heighten (tier 1)
    
  
  
• Marigold Crown: (Multiple Choice) Grants +1 to the DCs and caster level of Enchantment, Illusion, or Evocation spells.

Tier Three

• Enthrallment: Expend a Song to enthrall enemies. Enthralled enemies are mesmerized, with a chance of breaking free when damaged, and suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per bard level, even after being disrupted from their reverie. Negated on a Will save vs. Perform.
  
  • Stretch goal: Change to be an add-on to Fascinate.
    
  
  
• Reviving Verse: +1/2/3 saving throws vs. Sleep, Paralysis, Exhaustion, and Energy Drain.
  
  • Stretch Goal: Improve?
    
  
  
• Raucous Refrain: When you Inspire Courage, allies gain +1/2/3 Morale bonus to save vs. Sleep, Paralysis, Exhaustion, and Energy Drain for four minutes.
  
  • Cut completely
  
  
• New: Shout SLA
• Spellsong Trance: Expend a use of Bardic Music to grant a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell point costs to you and all nearby allies for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per bard level.
• Ability Score: +1 Charisma

Tier Four

• Sustaining Song: Expend a Song to apply a temporary fast-healing effect to all nearby allies. It lasts for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per bard level.
• Spell Penetration: 3 Ranks +1/2/3 to Spell Penetration
• Arcane Aid: When you Inspire Competence on an ally, they gain +1/2/3 Spell Penetration for four minutes.
  
  • Cut completely
  
  
• Frolic: When you sing the Song of Freedom on an ally, they gain Freedom of Movement for three minutes.
• Song of Arcane Might: Expend song to grant a +1 morale bonus to caster level for spells cast by you and all nearby allies for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per bard level.
  
  • Increase Duration
  
  
• Ability Score: +1 Charisma

Tier Five

• Song of Capering: Expend a use of Bardic Music to make a single enemy dance helplessly. This effect lasts 6 seconds plus 2 seconds per bard level. A successful Will save negates this effect.
  
  • Change to instant-cast time
    
  
  
• Studies multiple choice:
  
  • Advanced Magical Studies: +70/140/200 SP. Requires Magical Training.
  • Advanced Musical Studies: +1/2/3 extra Songs per Rest. Requires Musical Studies 3.
  
  
• Prodigy:
  
  • Rank 1:
    
    • +2 Concentration
    
    
  • Rank 2:
    
    • +2 Spell Penetration
    • +2 to the DCs of your Enchantment spells
    
    
  • Rank 3:
    
    • Whenever you finish playing a bard song, you grant temporary spell points to nearby allies.
  
  
• Spellsong Vigor: Expend a use of Bardic Music to apply an effect to one target that restores spell points over time.
• NEW: Multiselector:
  
  • Mass Hold SLA (Normally a level 9 Sorc/Wiz spell)
  • NEW: Horn of Thunder: Blast your foes with 1d4 Sonic and 1d4 Electric damage per caster level. Creatures making a Reflex save take half damage. \\n\\nMax caster level: 25

[Wipey]

So something like 70 Mass Hold SLA for Spellsinger in EA ? **** yeah !

[Vindraxx]

I like this personally. I appreciate the options between letting Spellsinger be more control focused with their SLA's or damage dealing while not removing their ability to buff casters/healing capabilities.

[memloch]

I would vote to make enthrallment the top of your stretch goal or remove it as it is a waste imo.
this has been asked for since the enhancement change.

I like the overall feel. •Sustaining Song says all nearby allies is this going back to an aoe type song?

[Chaimberland]

.

. •Sustaining Song says all nearby allies is this going back to an aoe type song?

I really hope so.

[alancarp]

Shout: "Emits an ear-splitting yell that deals 4 to 6 Sonic damage per caster level to all targets in its path. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage. D&D Dice: Deals 1d3+3 sonic damage per caster level, up to caster level 15."
Greater Shout: "Emits an ear-splitting yell that deals 4 to 6 Sonic damage per caster level and stuns targets in its path. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage and negates the stun. D&D Dice: Deals 1d3+3 sonic damage per caster level, up to caster level 20."

First knee-jerk reaction: is it just me, or does Shout seem just as effective as Greater Shout? The only differences I see are (a) the Stun effect and (b) the level 16-20 boost. (I'd have to presume that both have the same fortitude save condition). Can I lobby for maybe a 1d6+4 effect (5 to 10) dmg to justify doubling the spell point cost?

[poltt48]

Okay I like some of these changes. Some other things would change though. Get rid of flicker all together. Ability is useless don't know anyone who takes it. Marigold Crown could probly be bumped up to 2 to DC or lower cost to only 1 enhancement point. Reviving Verse defently needs to be improved another that no one takes. Sustaining Song could use a over hall too it is really weak for a tier 4 ability. How come horn of thunder does so little damage as a tier 5 ability greater shout almost does as much damage especially since bards don't get much electric mod.

[droid327]

Good changes to create a class that still doesnt really have a place in endgame content...and thats not a problem with the class per se as much as it is with the overall combat system.

CC is nice in theory, but so much of it will depend on your DC. And unlike straight nuking or instakill, there's recurring saves that have to be beaten as well. More veteran EE casters can judge for themselves if there's enough DC available to make that plausible, but I doubt it.

Same with charming...monster health is orders of magnitude higher than monster damage, so charms will only at best be a different flavor of holds. I dont imagine how a charmed monster could, for instance, even serve as a meatshield when players are going to be drawing so much more aggro.

And then, unlike blue-bar casters, half these abilities are still tied to Songs, which have a very limited potential for regeneration - there's not +song gear like there is for +MP, nor is there song potions, or temp-song procs. That's going to gate how much they actually see use.

I think ultimately, it sounds like Spellsingers are going to be somewhat reduced to Mass Hold spammers for the Helpless bonus, with the occasional Heal.

Possible additional tweaks: remove/reduce recurring saves for Spellsingers. Give charmed monsters something like a 10x damage multiplier while Charmed, so they actually do something noticeable to the other giant bags of HP you're fighting. Make the second SLA a triple-stacking Sonic DOT (Ringing Ears?), a la Eladar's, so Spellsingers have some more to actively do after they cast their buffs and CC. Add a way to get temp songs (% chance on Sonic crit, maybe?) so that Spellsingers are encouraged to use their Song abilities more actively (use it or lose it).

Maybe add another ability that helps restore blue bar to your allies...one of the big bonuses of having a Spellsinger in your party is it should allow your casters to be much more aggressive with their blue-bar use, almost to the point of recklessness with respect to spell cost.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

I rather like these changes. Extra kudos to the increased DCs (although another +1 for the capstone wouldn't go amiss), Song of Capering insta-cast, and increased times.

A few caveats:

1) I don't think the SLAs should have a maximum caster level... especially capping out at 10, even on a T1. They should increase with your character. Possibly bard levels instead of caster levels?

2) I really, really think that you should remove the "stretch goal" bit from having Enthrallment as an add-on to Fascinate. Given how many things add-on to Fascinate nowadays, having Enthrallment not add-on basically means Enthrallment is nothing but a gateblocker to Song of Capering.

3) You're making me reconsider changing my current SS to a Swashbuckler. Knock it off! *g*

4) I still think Spellsong Vigor should return to AoE. And yes, I realize that wasn't WAI, but I think it *should* be WAI.

5) The "stretch goal" multi-selector for the Suggestion... the other one should be a nice sonic DoT. Honestly, adding the same lousy sonic spells that bards already get and aren't really all that useful as SLAs doesn't really do a whole lot. The SLAs need to somehow be better than the spells - more powerful, cheaper, etc. And having a decent sonic DoT would go a LONG way towards that. IMHO, all the SLAs should be multi-selectors... one with spells bards already have, but improved, and one brand new that bards maybe SHOULD get, but don't. They don't all have to be damage, either.

Some questions:

1) Will you be fixing Sustaining Song to be AoE?

2) Will you be fixing Music of the Sewers/Undead/Makers to actually work in Epic?

[poltt48]

Good changes to create a class that still doesnt really have a place in endgame content...and thats not a problem with the class per se as much as it is with the overall combat system.

CC is nice in theory, but so much of it will depend on your DC. And unlike straight nuking or instakill, there's recurring saves that have to be beaten as well. More veteran EE casters can judge for themselves if there's enough DC available to make that plausible, but I doubt it.

Same with charming...monster health is orders of magnitude higher than monster damage, so charms will only at best be a different flavor of holds. I dont imagine how a charmed monster could, for instance, even serve as a meatshield when players are going to be drawing so much more aggro.

And then, unlike blue-bar casters, half these abilities are still tied to Songs, which have a very limited potential for regeneration - there's not +song gear like there is for +MP, nor is there song potions, or temp-song procs. That's going to gate how much they actually see use.

I think ultimately, it sounds like Spellsingers are going to be somewhat reduced to Mass Hold spammers for the Helpless bonus, with the occasional Heal.

Possible additional tweaks: remove/reduce recurring saves for Spellsingers. Give charmed monsters something like a 10x damage multiplier while Charmed, so they actually do something noticeable to the other giant bags of HP you're fighting. Make the second SLA a triple-stacking Sonic DOT (Ringing Ears?), a la Eladar's, so Spellsingers have some more to actively do after they cast their buffs and CC. Add a way to get temp songs (% chance on Sonic crit, maybe?) so that Spellsingers are encouraged to use their Song abilities more actively (use it or lose it).

Maybe add another ability that helps restore blue bar to your allies...one of the big bonuses of having a Spellsinger in your party is it should allow your casters to be much more aggressive with their blue-bar use, almost to the point of recklessness with respect to spell cost.

Love the idea of a sonic dot.

[G_Lich]

Moving in an awesome direction, on an evoc sorc greater shout is indispensable for RWTD farm to shut up the ghaele;s then promptly becomes useless over pure damage options at 20. I love the spell and would like to see it live.

I want to be able to shout and coup, but only if I can get a reliable Dc and still afford 33pts in swash.

Man this makes me want to +5 LR and go pure now, SLA's are fun and cheap usually.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Mass Hold, stronger sonic spells, and increased DCs are just what is needed. These changes are getting me excited to dust off my Spellsinger.

[Seikojin]

Based on your and Player Council Feedback, here's the changes we're currently considering for Spellsinger enhancements. Note that this is in a slightly different format than some previous editions; the original version is listed for many enhancements with changes below in red.

Important related changes:

• Shout: "Emits an ear-splitting yell that deals 4 to 6 Sonic damage per caster level to all targets in its path. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage. D&D Dice: Deals 1d3+3 sonic damage per caster level, up to caster level 15."
• Greater Shout: "Emits an ear-splitting yell that deals 4 to 6 Sonic damage per caster level and stuns targets in its path. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage and negates the stun. D&D Dice: Deals 1d3+3 sonic damage per caster level, up to caster level 20."
• Shout's range has been increased to match Greater Shout and costs 15(?) spells points.
• Greater Shout now costs 30(?) spell points.

Good base changes.

Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1:
  
  • Spellsinger: Each AP spent in Spellsinger grants +1 Universal Spell Power. Each innate ability after this one grants +1 Diplomacy, Listen, Perform, UMD and 2% critical chance with sonic and healing spells.
  
  
• 5 AP, class level 3:
  
  • Ooze Song: Fascinate now affects Oozes.
  • +1 Bard Spell Caster DC
    
  
  
• 10 AP, class level 6:
  
  • Music of the Dead: Fascinate now affects Undead .
  • +1 Bard Spell Caster DC
  
  
• 20 AP, class level 12:
  
  • Music of the Makers:Fascinate now also affects Constructs.
  • +1 Bard Spell Caster DC
    
  
  
• 30 AP, class level 18:
  
  • Virtuoso: You regenerate 1 Song every 5 minutes. +2 Songs per rest. +20% bard song duration.
  • +1 Bard Spell Caster DC
  
  
• 41 AP, class level 20: Maestro:
  
  • +4 Charisma
  • +25 Universal Spellpower
  • +2 Songs per rest.
  • Heal and Wailing Banshee are added to your Bard Spellbook.
  • Increased from +2 Charisma, +10 Spellpower
    

Nice changes, can virtuoso have added that it cuts song regen time if you already have it (anthem items)? Or if it does that, include it in the description?

Tier One

• Haunting Melody: You rework Fascinate with haunting notes, intoxicating yet unnerving. Fascinated creatures are Haunted for 20/40/60 seconds. Haunted: -2 on all Saving Throws, Skill checks and attack rolls.
• Lingering Songs: Your bard songs last 20/40/60% longer.
• Studies multiple choice:
  
  • Magical Studies: +30/+60/+100 SP total; 3rd rank Gain the Magical Training feat to gain echoes of power. (Still only total +100 SP.)
  • Musical Studies: +1/2/3 extra Songs per Rest
  
  
• Wand Heightening: Adds +1/2/3 to the save DC's of your offensive wands.
  
  • CUT: Merge into Tier 2 Wand & Scroll Mastery
  
  
• NEW Sonic Blast SLA: Blasts an enemy with loud high-pitched sounds, dealing 1d2+2 sonic damage plus 1d2+2 sonic damage per 2 caster levels. (Maximum sonic damage 5d2+10.) The target must make a successful Will save to avoid be dazed for a short period of time, or until they take damage.
  
  • Cooldown and SP cost TBD
    
  
  
• Charlatan: +1/2/3 Concentration, Haggle and Perform.

For the SLA, can its cooldown be double the daze duration, and sp be 4? This way you can spam it on echos, like all other casters, and its cooldown is long enough to prevent perma daze.

Tier Two

• Sharp Note: When you Inspire Competence, affected ally gains ‘Sharpened’ for 20/40/60 seconds. Sharpened: Your attacks bleeds the target. Bleed stacks up to 5 times.
  
  • Increase Duration (several minutes) Stretch goal: Possibly switch to party-wide buff?
    
  
  
• New Multiselector:
  
  • Flicker: When you are damaged you have a 5% chance of turning invisible for 2/4/6 seconds.
  • NEW: Willful: +1/2/3 Will Saving Throws
    
  
  
• Inspired Flicker: When you Inspire Competence on an ally, they gain Flicker for four minutes. Flicker: When you are damaged you have a 5% chance of turning invisible for 2/4/6 seconds.
  
  • Cut completely
  
  
• NEW: Multiple Choice:
  
  • Suggestion SLA: Influences the actions of an enemy, allowing you to suggest it to fight as your ally for 30+2 seconds per caster level. A successful will savenegates this effect.
  • Stretch Goal: Another SLA choice here (probably damage based).
  
  
• Wand and Scroll Mastery: +(25/50/75)% effectiveness of your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells.
  
  • Combined with Wand Heighten (tier 1)
    
  
  
• Marigold Crown: (Multiple Choice) Grants +1 to the DCs and caster level of Enchantment, Illusion, or Evocation spells.

Like the changes here. For the SLA, perhaps soundburst, or a sonic dot.

Tier Three

• Enthrallment: Expend a Song to enthrall enemies. Enthralled enemies are mesmerized, with a chance of breaking free when damaged, and suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per bard level, even after being disrupted from their reverie. Negated on a Will save vs. Perform.
  
  • Stretch goal: Change to be an add-on to Fascinate.
    
  
  
• Reviving Verse: +1/2/3 saving throws vs. Sleep, Paralysis, Exhaustion, and Energy Drain.
  
  • Stretch Goal: Improve?
    
  
  
• Raucous Refrain: When you Inspire Courage, allies gain +1/2/3 Morale bonus to save vs. Sleep, Paralysis, Exhaustion, and Energy Drain for four minutes.
  
  • Cut completely
  
  
• New: Shout SLA
• Spellsong Trance: Expend a use of Bardic Music to grant a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell point costs to you and all nearby allies for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per bard level.
• Ability Score: +1 Charisma

For reviving verse, perhaps have it remove all negative effects, or act as a dispel based on perform. Or have it do that and at tier 3, even remove holds.

Tier Four

• Sustaining Song: Expend a Song to apply a temporary fast-healing effect to all nearby allies. It lasts for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per bard level.
• Spell Penetration: 3 Ranks +1/2/3 to Spell Penetration
• Arcane Aid: When you Inspire Competence on an ally, they gain +1/2/3 Spell Penetration for four minutes.
  
  • Cut completely
  
  
• Frolic: When you sing the Song of Freedom on an ally, they gain Freedom of Movement for three minutes.
• Song of Arcane Might: Expend song to grant a +1 morale bonus to caster level for spells cast by you and all nearby allies for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per bard level.
  
  • Increase Duration
  
  
• Ability Score: +1 Charisma

All good here.

Tier Five

• Song of Capering: Expend a use of Bardic Music to make a single enemy dance helplessly. This effect lasts 6 seconds plus 2 seconds per bard level. A successful Will save negates this effect.
  
  • Change to instant-cast time
    
  
  
• Studies multiple choice:
  
  • Advanced Magical Studies: +70/140/200 SP. Requires Magical Training.
  • Advanced Musical Studies: +1/2/3 extra Songs per Rest. Requires Musical Studies 3.
  
  
• Prodigy:
  
  • Rank 1:
    
    • +2 Concentration
    
    
  • Rank 2:
    
    • +2 Spell Penetration
    • +2 to the DCs of your Enchantment spells
    
    
  • Rank 3:
    
    • Whenever you finish playing a bard song, you grant temporary spell points to nearby allies.
  
  
• Spellsong Vigor: Expend a use of Bardic Music to apply an effect to one target that restores spell points over time.
• NEW: Multiselector:
  
  • Mass Hold SLA (Normally a level 9 Sorc/Wiz spell)
  • NEW: Horn of Thunder: Blast your foes with 1d4 Sonic and 1d4 Electric damage per caster level. Creatures making a Reflex save take half damage. \\n\\nMax caster level: 25

I like this cap tier as well. Perhaps make the SLA be perform based? This way it scales as you level?

[alancarp]

Second, less-of-a-knee-jerk reaction:

1. Very much like the DC increases in the core.
2. Would like to see Sonic Spell Power boosts... perhaps +5 Sonic power per Core ability?
3. Tier 5 Studies multiple choice. Please disassociate the requirement for taking the same 'Studies' option as before. I truly don't need 6 songs, but could use 3 plus the spell points. In fact, I might require the *opposite* item the second time 'round.
4. Not crazy about Reviving verse - would never take it. The Energy Drain saves make it only slightly tempting, but would much rather use the other options in the Tier.
5. Was going to suggest tossing out Wail in favor of another SLA, but I like what you're doing in the tree with those. Since the DC's are being bumped too, Wail becomes a bit more viable as well. Oooo - yeah: good idea from above - a Sonic DoT!
6. Regarding Prodigy... being a Tier 5 ability... well, even the first rank oughta do more. Let me suggest this:

Rank 1: +2 Concentration
+1 Spell Penetration
+1 to the DCs of your Enchantment spells
+10 Sonic Spell Power.
Rank 2:
+1 Spell Penetration (total bonus of +2)
+1 to the DCs of your Enchantment spells (total bonus of +2)
+10 Sonic Spell Power (total bonus of +20)
Rank 3:
Whenever you finish playing a bard song, you grant temporary spell points to nearby allies.
+10 Sonic Spell Power (total bonus of +30)

Thanks very much for the Bard attention. It, and this information sharing, is highly appreciated.

[jakeelala]

Awesome.


Why are you limited the choice between Mass Hold and Horn SLA? Just make them require 12+ Bard levels so you don't have people splashing for them.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

great tree!

this would make me have to choose between SS and SB!

[geoffhanna]

I know I am a bit slow so I am probably just missing something. Please explain to me why the Tier 5 (cap) ability Song of Capering exists? Isn't Otto's Irresistable Dance already much better than that since it has no save?

Is it an SLA? Is that why it's worth using up a Tier 5 slot ? Because it looks like it is just a song that allows a save and is worse than a spell the bard can already access.

Maybe it is for splash builds that want to be able to dance bad guys but only want to take five levels of Bard? Still, that's more than 20 AP.

What am I missing?

[Vargouille]

First knee-jerk reaction: is it just me, or does Shout seem just as effective as Greater Shout? The only differences I see are (a) the Stun effect and (b) the level 16-20 boost. (I'd have to presume that both have the same fortitude save condition). Can I lobby for maybe a 1d6+4 effect (5 to 10) dmg to justify doubling the spell point cost?

Compare to Fireball and Delayed Blast Fireball. We're willing to look at different suggestions, but these are base changes to the spells affecting all casters, largely balanced against other spells. You might be able to convince us that Shout should have a lower damage cap.

1) I don't think the SLAs should have a maximum caster level... especially capping out at 10, even on a T1. They should increase with your character. Possibly bard levels instead of caster levels?

They'll keep increasing as you gain spellpower (or possibly max caster levels). These are quite in line with what other spellcasting trees get; you'll have to convince us that we should change all spellcasting trees and that tier 1 abilities should all scale well into end game and be as viable as epic spells. While we understand there are drawbacks to maximum caster levels (confusion and comprehension being the primary ones), from a design perspective the fact that these don't continue to progress as fast as higher level spells is a feature, not a drawback.

5) The "stretch goal" multi-selector for the Suggestion... the other one should be a nice sonic DoT.

We're willing to consider the possibility of a Sonic DOT here. Note that as a Tier 2 ability this isn't going to be something that stacks up against Eladar's Electric Surge or Niac's Biting Cold.

1) Will you be fixing Sustaining Song to be AoE?

We'll consider changing it. I'll be semantic and say it's not a fix, since it's not broken.

2) Will you be fixing Music of the Sewers/Undead/Makers to actually work in Epic?

The DCs work and have worked for at least a couple of Updates now, as far as we know. If you are saying that you can't get your Perform skill still isn't high enough to handle monster saving throws in Epic, that's a much larger discussion.

Nice changes, can virtuoso have added that it cuts song regen time if you already have it (anthem items)? Or if it does that, include it in the description?

This isn't very likely. It's a possibly nice to have, but right now we'd have to consider other changes (such as the listed stretch goals, which might not all happen) as higher priority.

For the SLA, can its cooldown be double the daze duration, and sp be 4? This way you can spam it on echos, like all other casters, and its cooldown is long enough to prevent perma daze.

Depends which SLA you are discussing, but that's useful balance feedback.

I like this cap tier as well. Perhaps make the SLA be perform based? This way it scales as you level?

These are largely all existing Bard songs that will already scale with your Charisma, which you probably already want to be increasing as you level. (Yup, Perform gets higher. Nope, that's not a good reason for Bards to always get better DCs everywhere.)

Why are you limited the choice between Mass Hold and Horn SLA? Just make them require 12+ Bard levels so you don't have people splashing for them.

This consciously presents a choice between choosing high power DPS vs. Crowd Control. Spellcasting trees generally don't get both as tier 5 abilities, so the onus is on whoever wants this tree to be different to convince us why. (It would probably also mean we make the SLAs longer cooldown or more SP if you can get both.)

We're willing to consider higher class level requirements, but I suspect that would not be overall better (unless it was part of across the board changes for all enhancements, which is not currently under consideration).

[kmoustakas]

Looks an epic improvement to me. I shudder to ask if it's TOO good but yes please I'll have some spellsinger. Enthralment strech goal is a must, everything else looks to be a great improvement.

[unbongwah]

Overall I like what I'm seeing. I still stick by some of my original suggestions, though:

• Sustaining Song needs a buff; e.g. 1 HP per tick per core enhancement, boosted by Pos Spellpower.
• Shift some of the core enhancement bonuses down a tier so you get Virtuoso at bard lvl 12. Also make song regen effects stack so you regen songs, say, 10% faster with each effect. [Alternatively, move Virtuoso into T4 or T5.]
• Maybe instead of +1 USP per AP, it should be +1.5 Sonic & Pos Spellpower per AP? It's not like bards get any other DPS spells, unless you're trying to be considerate to those planning to use ED SLAs.
• I'd like to see MCSW or MCCW added as a lvl 6 spell to lvl 18 core. Gives more healing oomph to both pure and lightly-MCed SSs.
• I think all of the SLAs should be multi-selector; similar to DiDi, you can choose between sonic or Enchantment. DC bonuses adjust to match; e.g., Prodigy provides +2 Evocation DCs if you go sonic path.
• Spellsong Trance and Song of Arcane Might should be combined into one song with an expandable chain of bonuses attached. Let's cut down on how many songs we have to cycle thru, please!

As for the abilities you plan to drop, suggestions for improving them instead:

• Flicker / Inspired Flicker: rather than a chance to turn invisible, make it a chance to turn Incorporeal.
• Reviving Verse & Raucous Refrain: combine these two into "When you Inspire Courage, you and nearby allies gain +1/2/3 Morale bonus to save vs. Sleep, Paralysis, Exhaustion, and Energy Drain. Rank 3: when you Inspire Courage, you and nearby allies gain immunity to Sleep, Paralysis, Exhaustion, and Energy Drain for 24 seconds + 6 secs per bard level."
• Spell Penetration & Arcane Aid: combine these and turn them into an add-on for Song of Arcane Might: "You and nearby allies gain +1/2/3 bonus to Spell Penetration. Rank 3: You and nearby allies gain an additional +1 bonus to spell DCs."