Adventures in Theorycrafting - Sohei of Vulkoor

[unbongwah]

The sohei were medieval Japanese warrior monks; it's also a D&D base class from Oriental Adventures which gained divine spells like a paladin or ranger. A monk 6 / pally 14 split is probably closer to the sohei class as described. But I needed a name for this build and couldn't come up with a better one - "Ninja Warpriest" is accurate, yet somehow silly - so deal with it.

I think I first mentioned this build concept in my Tempest Warpriest thread a few months ago. The core concept was a centered TWF toon with a heavy divine caster focus for a mix of melee DPS & spells. I'm certainly not the first to come up with this split and I've seen a few other builds posted already. But a couple of folks have asked to see my take on it, so here it is.

Build goals include:

• Good melee DPS using short swords - 90% offhand procs (GTWF + Deft Strikes), IC:Pierce, Power Atk/CL/GC/Overwhelming Crit chain, Smite Foe and Righteous Weapons (Warpriest), drow racial bonuses, Master Earth stance for crit bonus, Poison + sneak atk bonuses from Ninja
• Some light DPS from Wrathful Weapons, Divine Vessel, Light Guard, and FvS spells (mostly Divine Punishment)
• Debuffs from Smite Weakness, Burden of Sin, Shield of Condemnation (which also boosts light dmg vulnerability)
• Good survivability - Evasion, Divine Grace, Shadow Form, +CON & PRR from Earth stance (boosted w/Iron Skin), divine buffs
• Plenty of healing - Fists of Light, Ameliorating Strike, Cures & Heal; can be further augmented thru EDs w/Rejuvenation Cocoon, Light the Dark, and Renewal

It's also designed to take advantage of the fact that Fists of Light can cause Magic Backlash to proc; see the Akuma for details.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 28 Lawful Good Drow Female
(2 Paladin \ 6 Monk \ 12 Favored Soul \ 8 Epic) 
Hit Points: 340
Spell Points: 1812 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 22
Reflex: 20
Will: 16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 28)
Strength             16                    25
Dexterity            16                    17
Constitution         12                    14
Intelligence         12                    14
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             14                    16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 28)
Balance               3                    14
Bluff                 2                    11
Concentration         4                    33
Diplomacy             2                    11
Disable Device        n/a                  n/a
Haggle                2                    11
Heal                  1                    28
Hide                  3                    11
Intimidate            2                    11
Jump                  3                    17
Listen               -1                     9
Move Silently         3                    11
Open Lock             n/a                  n/a
Perform               n/a                  n/a
Repair                1                    10
Search                1                    12
Spellcraft            3                    33
Spot                 -1                     9
Swim                  3                    15
Tumble                4                    14
Use Magic Device      4                    22

Level 1 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Spellcraft (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 2 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Spellcraft (+3)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of Vulkoor


Level 3 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 5 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+2)


Level 6 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 7 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Fire


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 9 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+3)


Level 11 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Heal (+3)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)


Level 12 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Heal (+2)


Level 15 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Deflect Arrows
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+3)


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Spellcraft (+2)
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Electricity
Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms


Level 19 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Smite Foe (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Resilience of Battle (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Sanctuary (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - War Domain: Blur (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Divine Might (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Righteous Weapons (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Smite Weakness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Righteous Weapons (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Burden of Sin (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Burden of Sin (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Burden of Sin (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Righteous Weapons (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Ameliorating Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Light Guard (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Light Guard (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Light Guard (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Righteous Weapons (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Divine Vessel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Divine Vessel (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Divine Vessel (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wrathful Weapons (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Magic Backlash (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Magic Backlash (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Magic Backlash (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Veil (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Fists of Iron (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sting of the Ninja (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Font of Power (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Shield of Condemnation (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Aura of Menace (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Summon Archon (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Scourge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Scourge (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Scourge (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Animus (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Animus (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Animus (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Smiting (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Just Reward (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Just Reward (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Just Reward (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Smiting (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Articles of Faith (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Smiting (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Protection from Tainted Creatures (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 3)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Blinding Speed


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: First Blood

My level-ups are staggered out to max out skills: 23 ranks of Concentration and Spellcraft, 21 ranks of Heal, and 11 ranks of UMD. There's probably a better order to take things - for one thing, I should take the pally lvls together to get Divine Grace ASAP - but I haven't worked it out yet.

I'm on the fence about how many APs to invest in AoV. I like the idea of having an archon, but it may be wiser to invest, say, more APs into Shintao for Iron Skin or into drow & Ninja for more DPS. That's an easy tweak to make, though.

A couple of variant ideas:

• Shurikens: since drow get Shuriken Expertise for free, you might want to consider investing in some ranged feats instead of the CL/GC/OC chain. At a minimum I would want Quick Draw and 10K Stars (probably instead of Deflect Arrows); after that perhaps Point Blank Shot and IC:Thrown. You'll probably also want to invest in more WIS for higher proc chances from 10K. It's not a central focus of this build, but just a way of augmenting ranged DPS.
• CHA-based: STR-based is better melee DPS, but CHA-based would mean higher saves & more SPs. It would also have synergies with CHA-based ED SLAs like Energy Burst, Soundburst, and Avenging Light, if you wanted to focus more on the caster DPS side of things.

[unbongwah]

Reserved

[unbongwah]

Reserved x2

[EllisDee37]

Neat!

Never a fan of having a divine icon on a melee build, but it makes sense for this build.

Did you consider cleric for the divine levels? Aura is probably too much of an AP investment for too little effect, but any cleric with aura will have regenerating turns to keep it going 24/7.

[Loriac]

Re: Cha vs Str, I wouldn't get hung up on this unless you're trying to build for stunning blow.

On my version of this split, which is staff based rather than shortswords, I started with 17 in Str and Cha; 1 levelup into Str for OC and the rest to Cha means that I'm basically 3 Str behind a str version of the build. The added flexibility of having higher Cha based dc's if I want to run in EA say more than makes up for this, as does the extra +3 to saves.

My suspicion is that building for ameliorating strike is overkill in epic with the access to cheap mass CMW in exalted angel now, however it makes more sense for a drow shortsword user who can synergise off the warpriest enhancements to weapons. If you didn't have this (or only had access to the poorer weapon choices like longsword or mace), I would drop most of the warpriest tree beyond DM, the 10PRR, and 5/- DR.

[Cardtrick]

My suspicion is that building for ameliorating strike is overkill in epic with the access to cheap mass CMW in exalted angel now, however it makes more sense for a drow shortsword user who can synergise off the warpriest enhancements to weapons. If you didn't have this (or only had access to the poorer weapon choices like longsword or mace), I would drop most of the warpriest tree beyond DM, the 10PRR, and 5/- DR.

Unlike your version of this class split (or mine), this one doesn't require Staff Specialization. That frees him up to take Tier 5 Warpriest enhancements. The Fists of Light + Magical Backlash combination is stupidly awesome, although I have no idea whether it's really working as intended. Given that he wants to take tier 5 warpriest enhancements anyway to get Magical Backlash, there's really no reason not to get Ameliorating Strike.

Plus the cheap mass CMW you mention is a core ability in Exalted Angel, not twistable. I doubt that he's planning to run this build in the EA destiny -- it seems to have a lot more synergy with Divine Crusader or LD.

[Saekee]

Nice ideas as always--great name too. I remember you mentioning this in a post so was curious to read about it!

I wouldn't bother with the Shurikens--with a low dex and low wisdom they will not amount to much. PBS adds (1w) which does very little for shurikens, other than enabling rapid shot (rapid shot and quickdraw combine for a nice attack rate). If you wanted to add range, i suppose 2 ranger over 2 Pally would work better. 2 ranger gives rapid shot so there is no need for PBS. It would save a feat also for TWF.

I have struggled with combining Ninja, pally and favored soul--like above, the magic backlash from fists of light and the tier 5 Warpriest is an auto-knockdown (and probably not WAI, but who is to say?). the tier 5 Warpriest also buffs the weapons on vorpals for a burst of light damage. On the other hand, one can just stay pure Monk and get both vorpal and expanded threat on shortswords, along with vorpal (and bugged) expanded threat for shurikens. If one were to stay pure, then it would even work to go Dex/Wis over Str. (I am experimenting with this right now in heroics and it has been mixed. Kind of mediocre ranged/mediocre melee.)

One of the best short swords in the game, Celestia, loses its DR with the warpriest favored weapon enhancements. Frustrating.

[Loriac]

Unlike your version of this class split (or mine), this one doesn't require Staff Specialization. That frees him up to take Tier 5 Warpriest enhancements. The Fists of Light + Magical Backlash combination is stupidly awesome, although I have no idea whether it's really working as intended. Given that he wants to take tier 5 warpriest enhancements anyway to get Magical Backlash, there's really no reason not to get Ameliorating Strike.

Plus the cheap mass CMW you mention is a core ability in Exalted Angel, not twistable. I doubt that he's planning to run this build in the EA destiny -- it seems to have a lot more synergy with Divine Crusader or LD.

Magical backlash looks to me like a 'feature' that turbine will be fixing to wai at some point; I wouldn't plan a build around it unless I was happy with tr'ing when the inevitable nerfbat hits. Having said that, it does sound like its fun to use at the moment, so I can certainly understand making use of it for now.

Re: CMW - my thinking here is slightly broader than the particular flavor of 12fvs/6mnk/2pal in this thread. In particular, I guess its an open question for me at the moment - does ameliorating strike provide sufficient additional healing capability that it allows this build to solo heal an EE group, or would you have to switch to EA if you wanted to take on this role even with ameliorating strike. If you realistically have to switch to EA, then ameliorating strike becomes redundant. Unfortunately, I don't think there is an easy answer to this - I suspect its down to how self-sufficient / survivable the other people in your EE group are.

I'm also still quite uncertain about exactly where these builds fit in melee wise. Whilst I can agree that Divine crusader is a solid choice of ED, I'm unconvinced by LD. The reason is that with the exception of the staff based builds, which can use the crit range / mult extension for sireth (effectively making it comparable but slightly lower dps than a kensai eSoS wielder even without the 15% rogue alacrity, and higher on paper with), there are no other weapon choices that the mix can take which give it comparable dps to a 'real' melee build. Even using an eSoS on the 12fvs/6monk/2pal mix is actually lower dps than the staff version (as you need fighter 8 to be centred). Therefore, whilst you can use LD to add a lot of melee capability (as can most builds), it doesn't seem to me to play to the real strengths of the mix.

[EllisDee37]

In particular, I guess its an open question for me at the moment - does ameliorating strike provide sufficient additional healing capability that it allows this build to solo heal an EE group, or would you have to switch to EA if you wanted to take on this role even with ameliorating strike. If you realistically have to switch to EA, then ameliorating strike becomes redundant.

I didn't get the impression that this is a healer build. It looks like a melee build to me.

[mna]

One of the best short swords in the game, Celestia, loses its DR with the warpriest favored weapon enhancements. Frustrating.

Then again, there are people who don't have one of those... like those who took something else from the raider boxes, and newer people (if just on that server, not in the game necessarily).


How was it again...TWF melee destinies... FotW is fairly good at least?

And this thing looks like it could be fun in Shadowdancer as well. (Shadowdancer gets "free" DDoor too, which is very nice...)





Hm. Still need at least 2 adventure packs (possibly more) before I can theoretically unlock FvS, and then have to have TP for Monk too... be a while before I could try this.

[Loriac]

I didn't get the impression that this is a healer build. It looks like a melee build to me.

Two things: you cut out the part where I said this was a broader question looking at the 12fvs/6monk/2pal builds as a class of builds rather than purely this particular one.

Secondly: if you want to make a pure melee build, this isn't the right mix to do it with. The point of taking 12 fvs levels is to build in extra capabilities, and the OP even lists one of his objectives as 'plenty of healing'.

In that vein, I think its a fair discussion point to bottom out just how useful the various abilities such as ameliorating strike are.

Broadly speaking, there are various core and optional 'modules' you can pick up in this mix, not counting the weapon choice:

Core:
- Ninja spy shadow veil
- Warpriest DM (possibly also the 10PRR could be counted as 'core' in this sense)
- AoV to shield of condemnation

Optional:
- lantern archon: requires 21+ ap in the AoV tree, allows for archon based powering of scourge and similar abilities
- magical backlash + fists of lights: probably not wai, but fun while it lasts
- extended use of warpriest sans magical backlash: good if you have a decent deity favored weapon, i.e. greatswords, shortswords, scimitars. However, even the best of these will be much lower than pure melee dps. Based on what I've looked at (and its quite possible I've overlooked something) the only weapon the mix can use that is in a comparable ballpark to dedicated melee atm is the staff, which precludes this 'module'
- shintao monk earth stance modifications to get extra PRR and heal amp
- ameliorating strike (arguably a subset of the extended use of warpriest due to the requirement to put 22ap into the tree to unlock it)

The key choice for the mix however is the weapon of choice. As noted above, deity favored weapons favor the full warpriest tree to tier 5, because theres nothing in the monk tier 5s thats any better. However, you can't get extended crit mult / range for any of these, so you're stuck with fairly bad crit profiles except if you use an eSoS or scimitars (I may be overlooking a decent endgame weapon here in the other deity favored types). The problem with both of those however is that you're not centred, so you lose most of the monk benefits.

The other good possibilities for weapons are unarmed or staff. Unarmed simply because of stunning fist, and staff with the tier 5 in mystic. Unarmed changes the build entirely however due to the wis focus, and you'd be better off mixing in offensive casting.

Which leaves staff as the 'optimal' choice from a purely theorycrafted basis.



Apologies if the above is a bit abstract, but the thread is titled 'adventures in theorycrafting' so I figure a slightly broader analysis of the 12fvs/6monk/2pal mix is reasonable in that context.

[Saekee]

Which leaves staff as the 'optimal' choice from a purely theorycrafted basis.

Great points--just to note, if you go THF you lose the double proc of ameliorating strike from TWF. Not sure if doublestrike works enough to warrant the loss?

@mna: Then again, there are people who don't have one of those... like those who took something else from the raider boxes, and newer people (if just on that server, not in the game necessarily). --that is a fair point. There are plenty of easily acquired short swords that are also decent enough considering the boosts from favored soul and monk attacks like Fists of Iron etc.

[unbongwah]

Did you consider cleric for the divine levels? Aura is probably too much of an AP investment for too little effect, but any cleric with aura will have regenerating turns to keep it going 24/7.

Yes, but I want AoV bonuses as well as WP for this build. Plus if you've got Radiant Servant, it's hard to turn down auras, but that precludes all the T5 Warpriest goodies I pick up.

On my version of this split, which is staff based rather than shortswords, I started with 17 in Str and Cha; 1 levelup into Str for OC and the rest to Cha means that I'm basically 3 Str behind a str version of the build. The added flexibility of having higher Cha based dc's if I want to run in EA say more than makes up for this, as does the extra +3 to saves.

Sure, if you're fortunate enough to have +5 tomes and/or extra build pts from PLs, the downsides from going CHA-based are much lower. This build was based on more modest resources, in part because I have a couple of drow monk / pally toons I'm trying to decide what to LR into.

My suspicion is that building for ameliorating strike is overkill in epic with the access to cheap mass CMW in exalted angel now, however it makes more sense for a drow shortsword user who can synergise off the warpriest enhancements to weapons. If you didn't have this (or only had access to the poorer weapon choices like longsword or mace), I would drop most of the warpriest tree beyond DM, the 10PRR, and 5/- DR.

I didn't build around Ameliorating Strike on this build the way I do on my Tempest Warpriest. Instead, it's just another perk I acquire on my way up to T5 Warpriest, since I need to spend 30 APs just to unlock it. If I chose to abandon T5 WP and/or deity weapon, this would be a very different build.

One of the best short swords in the game, Celestia, loses its DR with the warpriest favored weapon enhancements. Frustrating.

Yeah, this is one of the main drawbacks to this build. Fortunately, you'll probably want to switch to TF short swords for endgame.

[unbongwah]

Whilst I can agree that Divine crusader is a solid choice of ED, I'm unconvinced by LD. The reason is that with the exception of the staff based builds, which can use the crit range / mult extension for sireth (effectively making it comparable but slightly lower dps than a kensai eSoS wielder even without the 15% rogue alacrity, and higher on paper with), there are no other weapon choices that the mix can take which give it comparable dps to a 'real' melee build. Even using an eSoS on the 12fvs/6monk/2pal mix is actually lower dps than the staff version (as you need fighter 8 to be centred). Therefore, whilst you can use LD to add a lot of melee capability (as can most builds), it doesn't seem to me to play to the real strengths of the mix.

If you're talking about Pulverizer, that still doesn't work w/Sireth, AFAIK, nor does it stack w/Staff Spec even if it did. And Master's Blitz is so insanely OP that even mediocre-DPS builds like this benefit from it.

That said, I'm leaning towards Divine Crusader - or maybe even Primal Avatar - instead of LD, since this is meant to be a melee+caster hybrid rather than pure melee DPS build.

[Loriac]

If you're talking about Pulverizer, that still doesn't work w/Sireth, AFAIK, nor does it stack w/Staff Spec even if it did. And Master's Blitz is so insanely OP that even mediocre-DPS builds like this benefit from it.

That said, I'm leaning towards Divine Crusader - or maybe even Primal Avatar - instead of LD, since this is meant to be a melee+caster hybrid rather than pure melee DPS build.

I was looking at the total possible crit profile you can get with the various weapon types, and trying to identify which weapon(s) represent the highest dps for a 12 fvs build. As you note, pulveriser doesn't work with sireth but this doesn't really change the basics, to whit:

Sireth is 13-20x3 (plus the various adds to the 19-20 range) with staff specialization. An eSoS in the hands of a centred kensai is also 13-20x3. The eSoS on paper is slightly ahead of sireth, unless you splash at least 1 rogue into the build to pick up 15% staff alacrity which then puts it ahead on paper (even then its noteworthy that the Cetus build notes mention that he found that he was still getting slightly better dps in practice using eSoS). Now that cleave glances work on staves, even if you don't take the rogue level you can just treat it as a standard two-handed cleaving weapon without particularly focusing on doublestrike etc.

However, whichever way you slice it, the 12fvs using sireth and staff specialization is comparable dps (albeit probably slightly lower) to a centred eSoS kensai, so the idea of becoming a 'pureish' melee based on dps you can put out in LD makes sense. Its effectively a comparative advantage of the build, though even then if you're going to end in LD there are better splits (11Pal/6Monk/3Rog for example would be a much better split in that case) that still retain much of the self-healing capabilities.

For your build, which I think would be a lot of fun to play btw, you lose sufficient dps to a pure melee dps'r that LD doesn't really give you any comparative advantage. Its still a very usable destiny as you note, and it can pump up the melee dps for any build into something that will easily allow you to plow through EH at a minimum. However, the divine destinies, DC and EA in particular in my view, play to the full strengths of the 12fvs build.

I think the primal destiny is a solid choice, but the loss of 5 caster levels will hurt the spellcasting on the 12fvs. Again, I think it would be fun to play around with that destiny using your build, but ultimately if you want a build that spends most of its time in primal avatar, my view is that builds that use a solid core of druid (or possibly ranger) levels are much better for that.


My comments aren't intended to denigrate your build in any way - I think that it would be a lot of fun to play, with a wide range of abilities that you can also tailor significantly just be changing enhancement spend. Its just that I've been doing a lot of analysis recently on the 12fvs/6monk/2pal concept and am still trying to understand its various abilities better.

[unbongwah]

I think the primal destiny is a solid choice, but the loss of 5 caster levels will hurt the spellcasting on the 12fvs.

Agreed: I was drawn to PA for Balanced Attacks (free knockdown on vorpals), Symetric Strikes (+5% TWF DPS), Stormrage, and Nature's Fury (+1 crit multiplier on 19-20); but the loss of caster lvls is significant. I haven't spent any time with DC yet, but I'm looking forward to finding out how well it works.

[Cardtrick]

Agreed: I was drawn to PA for Balanced Attacks (free knockdown on vorpals), Symetric Strikes (+5% TWF DPS), Stormrage, and Nature's Fury (+1 crit multiplier on 19-20); but the loss of caster lvls is significant. I haven't spent any time with DC yet, but I'm looking forward to finding out how well it works.

FOL + Magical Backlash combined with Balanced Attacks sounds like a lot of fun for however long the "Akuma" combination continues to work. Enemies standing up is not allowed. It's a shame clerics and favored souls in DDO don't get Earthquake like they should.

[SamX]

Looks pretty cool. I think I will re-roll my very old FvS/Monk into this.

I am thinking of some minor changes as I have +4 tomes and 30-pt if I reincarnate.

16 strength +3 level ups +4 tome (23 for Overwhelming Critical)
13 dexterity +4 tome (17 for GTWF)
12 constitution +4 tome
8 wisdom +4 tome
11 intelligence +4 tome
18 charisma +4 level ups +4 tome
... I will end up with 6 skill points less.

It's a real shame you can't dump deflect arrows for maximize.

[unbongwah]

13 dexterity +4 tome (17 for GTWF)

The only drawback to this is it messes up your feat progression; you can't take TWF until lvl 7 when +2 kicks in and ITWF/GTWF until lvls 15 & 18. Since you'll presumably take IC:Pierce at lvl 12, that means MoF is delayed until epic lvls (presuming you move Emp Heal or Max to lvl 9 instead of ITWF on my build).

Not a huge deal - just swing a stick or something for the first 6 lvls - but figured I should point it out.

It's a real shame you can't dump deflect arrows for maximize.

You could also take Dodge: +3% from the feat itself, +3% from Imp Dodge (drow tree), +9% if you pick up Reed in the Wind. APs are pretty tight, though, so I'm not sure what I would drop to take all that.

[SamX]

The only thing I don't really like about this build is that it's not very castery. My original FvS/Monk (18/2) was a proper spell caster. She had some melee, but also CC and proper heals.

However, from everything I've read, there is no hope these days of landing DC-based CC spells on monsters in the end game unless you farm the perfect gear and past lives. Which I won't. It's also a shame that the game has gotten to the point where BYOH even applies to raids...

I guess taking only 12 FvS is just the natural response to these two unfortunate directions DDO has taken. That just leaves the question "will I see big numbers in this build"? I've seen some youtube videos (like that Akuma build) where a player is hitting stuff for 600s (+ another untyped 80 I don't understand) on non-crits, with crits in the thousands! I haven't run the numbers, but I guess this is the result of a lot of multiplicative factors from these overpowered epic destinies..?