The better tank

[Lauf]

Hey all

I've decided to roll a tank. been toying with the idea for quite some time, but the lack of dps really put me off. anyways, decided to roll one.
after thinking it over, I came up with an odd mix. please let me know what you think (and if there's something I'm missing)

looking at the available options (pally / fighter) the fighter tree seems to provide more dps, and with dps being my main concern, fighter became the natural choice.
when trying to decide just how much fighter levels to take, I noticed that the cores (12/18/20) seem (to me) to give very little benefit. so... 6 fighter?

let's move on.

evasion, or at least the option of evasion when needed, seemed crucial to me. monk gives feats, better saves, and has +3% dodge, +3 reflex, and a +5% heal amp over the rogue option, all within easy reach in its trees. so 2 monk for dirty evasion. done.

this leaves 12 levels untapped.

and here comes the interesting part, 12 levels are a ton of freedom, and the best use for them I could see was the fvs class.
12 fvs levels gives:
self divine buffs
quickened empowered heal (a tank self casting heal? yes please!)
divine might + divine favor (for the love of dps)
AC / hp / prr from the warpriest tree (+ sanctuary core)
divine punishment for some added hate/dps (or does the tank stance make the cooldowns longer?)

so ended up with a split far different than the one I was expecting when I started out (thought it'd probably be 18 fighter 2 pally or some other split of the 2)

my question is, is there any real advantage to going mostly fighter/pally as most tank builds do?
if so, why would a more "normal" split make the better tank?

[Feithlin]

Hey all

I've decided to roll a tank. been toying with the idea for quite some time, but the lack of dps really put me off. anyways, decided to roll one.
after thinking it over, I came up with an odd mix. please let me know what you think (and if there's something I'm missing)

looking at the available options (pally / fighter) the fighter tree seems to provide more dps, and with dps being my main concern, fighter became the natural choice.
when trying to decide just how much fighter levels to take, I noticed that the cores (12/18/20) seem (to me) to give very little benefit. so... 6 fighter?

let's move on.

evasion, or at least the option of evasion when needed, seemed crucial to me. monk gives feats, better saves, and has +3% dodge, +3 reflex, and a +5% heal amp over the rogue option, all within easy reach in its trees. so 2 monk for dirty evasion. done.

this leaves 12 levels untapped.

and here comes the interesting part, 12 levels are a ton of freedom, and the best use for them I could see was the fvs class.
12 fvs levels gives:
self divine buffs
quickened empowered heal (a tank self casting heal? yes please!)
divine might + divine favor (for the love of dps)
AC / hp / prr from the warpriest tree (+ sanctuary core)
divine punishment for some added hate/dps (or does the tank stance make the cooldowns longer?)

so ended up with a split far different than the one I was expecting when I started out (thought it'd probably be 18 fighter 2 pally or some other split of the 2)

my question is, is there any real advantage to going mostly fighter/pally as most tank builds do?
if so, why would a more "normal" split make the better tank?

Personnaly, I went for a classical Human F12/P6/M2.
Some variations are similar: F14/P4 gives one more feat, but prevents from going DoS ; Ro2 instead of M2 looses 2 feats but gains full UMD, some SA (when not tanking or when using deception), (expensive) access to scroll mastery.
What I get is a good Str (DM and Power surge), fine dps with a shield (Blood & cut, nice shield bash %), good HA and Empower healing.
What I like is the possibility to change radically the AP distribution: could go DoS instead of SD (more saves, more PRR), develop more KotC (more HA), etc.
Even if it has a lot of feats, I had to make difficult choices (WF/WS/gWS, eventually gWF, or Mobility, Toughness, eToughness, or tactical feats).

Overall, I'm happy with it, even if it's certainly not optimal, because I wanted him to be S&B w/ a BS. However, I think some bladeforged centered kensei (with more defensive options than the usual DPS beast) would be better.

The main problem I see with your option is your limited saves. IMO, evasion (+ eReflexes) and high saves (70+ Ref) is a must have. So if you want to go FvS 12, I'd better complete it with P6/M2.

[Lauf]

The main problem I see with your option is your limited saves. IMO, evasion (+ eReflexes) and high saves (70+ Ref) is a must have. So if you want to go FvS 12, I'd better complete it with P6/M2.

the thing I worry about most is not so much the saves, as it is the dps.
rolled this split on a pdk to see where that gets me, and in heroics I can hit a 40 reflex with a GH and ship buffs, without the best gear. I think a 43-44 reflex can be had without a problem.

moving into epics, my napkin math puts it well over the 70+ reflex, with the better gear and extra levels / feats / EDs, depending on how much I want to push it. so the saves are there.

would they be better with a pally splash? sure. but the (already limited) dps would suffer.

[Feithlin]

the thing I worry about most is not so much the saves, as it is the dps.
rolled this split on a pdk to see where that gets me, and in heroics I can hit a 40 reflex with a GH and ship buffs, without the best gear. I think a 43-44 reflex can be had without a problem.

moving into epics, my napkin math puts it well over the 70+ reflex, with the better gear and extra levels / feats / EDs, depending on how much I want to push it. so the saves are there.

would they be better with a pally splash? sure. but the (already limited) dps would suffer.

You should take time to evaluate your ref save, because it's highly important. Keeping a good dps is obviously very important, but since you plan to tank, you will take the hits, and the most damaging ones are from spells. If you're dead, your dps will be 0. Also note that DoS gives you divine righteousness (+100% threat). It has been nerfed but is still important. If you plan to be in US ED, it won't stack with Intolerant Blow though, but then that means you plan to lock yourself into a low dps ED.

[Lauf]

You should take time to evaluate your ref save, because it's highly important.

Fine, let's break it down.

Levels:
+8 : 12 fvs levels
+2 : 6 fighter levels
+3 : 2 monk levels
+4 : epic levels
Total: 17

Ability (dex):
base 12 : +1
+4 tome : +2
Total: 20

Gear:
+10 : resistance
+2 : good luck
+5 : dex +10 item
+1 : alchemical ritual
Total: 38

Enhancements:
+3 : Ninja spy agility
+3 : Resilient defense
Total: 44

Feats:
+2 : Bulwark of defense
+2 : Lightning reflexes
Total: 48

Destinies:
+6 : Unearthy reactions (also +3% dodge, must have)
+6 : Lithe (also +6 AC etc, another must have)
Total: 60

Buffs:
GH : +4
Ship : +2
Total: 66

used only 2 of the 3 twists, did not take into account insightful bonus to saves, insightful/exceptional stat bonus, exceptional bonus to saves, and I'm sure I'm leaving out a few more also haven't discussed race or racial enhancements at all.

I'll probably end up taking blinding speed or epic reflexes for another +1 or +2 respectively, so we're looking at a very conservative 67/68 reflex.
getting it over 70 should be simple enough.

Also note that DoS gives you divine righteousness (+100% threat). It has been nerfed but is still important. If you plan to be in US ED, it won't stack with Intolerant Blow though, but then that means you plan to lock yourself into a low dps ED.

interesting... I was stuck in the phase of creating a tank that can do decent damage.

should I just give up on that notion and concentrate on threat instead?

[rcmcneil]

I built a 12ftr/6pal/2mnk Bladeforged with the specific intention of testing sword & board defensive against centered Kensei. With a couple of feat swaps & Enhancement resets, I've been able to to test:

-Full shield feat line
-Full centered Kensei with Greataxes & Greatswords (not at the same time) with Master of Forms (tier 3 stances)
-Defensive Bastard Sword (up to tier 5 with both Stalwart & Sacred (again, not at the same time))
-Full Two-Handed Fighting Line (glancing blows for Bastard Swords, Greatswords, & Greataxes)
-Unyielding Sentinel & Legendary Dreadnought maxed

Both have their strong points, but cannot be tested in isolation. Some things I've expermiented with:

Sword & Board:
-truckload of hitpoints & PRR, especially while in Sentinel (I'm at 2100hp, 140PRR)
-55% bashing (20% item, 15% Stalwart Shield Striking, 20% feat)
-doublestrike near 30% without really trying
-no monk stance benefits
-good dps while in Blitz, but once it runs out, the dropoff in damage output is dramatic
-dodge is around 4% with tower shield, 13% with other shields
-shields cannot bash more than once per second
-shields don't benefit from Improved Critical

Centered Kensei:
-nowhere near as many hitpoints or PRR, but still decent (1100hp, ~70PRR)
-decent doublestrike into the 20s
-monk stance benefits (dodge ~21%, x1 multiplier on 19-20 in earth stance, +7.5% doublestrike in wind stance)
-very high dps even while not Blitzing (While in Dreadnought with Attachment, eSoS turns into 5[2d6], 13-20; eAGA turns into 4.5[1d20], 17-20, not counting Deadly Weapons)
-Can use both Kensei Power Surge & KotC Divine Might at the same time for a very nice & enduring strength increase

The purpose of the "tank" has a very specific criteria: can you establish & hold aggro to ensure you take the damage instead of party members?

This implies:
-that there are other party members there to deal damage, but are not capable of absorbing it well.
-that you can put out enough damage combined with hate to hold aggro against all others.
-that you can indeed absorb, deflect, or negate incoming damage to outlive your enemy/enemies.

After testing all this over the past 4 months, I've come to several conclusions:
-sword & board is moderate dps, even while Blitzing, & is therefore reliant on party members for damage output
-the absorption abilities are very much behind the curve once you step into an EE
-the damage output, even with full hate gear, is unable to hold aggro against trash mobs & bosses once a centered kensei, monkcher, sorcerer, juggernaut, or assassin steps in. Even intimidate will fail to hold for long enough to reestablish you as top of the list.
-even with over 2000hp & very high PRR, the dps on sword & board is painfully low in EEs.
-it is reliant on massive hitpoints most of the time to get through a fight instead of dps. This means healing is required, which takes time, spellpoints/scrolls, & if self healing, it means taking away much needed dps to do it.

[Feithlin]

Feats:
+2 : Bulwark of defense
+2 : Lightning reflexes
Total: 48

Destinies:
+6 : Unearthy reactions (also +3% dodge, must have)
+6 : Lithe (also +6 AC etc, another must have)
Total: 60

Total: 66

Nice total.
Note that to reach this you had to dedicate 2 feats and 2 twists, which could have been dedicated to dps.

A way to build some dps as a FvS would be to focus on vulnerabilities: Shield of Condemnation, Smite weakness, and use a celestia as your weapon. You may take a look at this thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-damage-builds

interesting... I was stuck in the phase of creating a tank that can do decent damage.
should I just give up on that notion and concentrate on threat instead?

Sadly, as noticed by rcmcneil, you would really need both high dps and high threat in the actual state of the game, because dps beasts are really high in comparison to anything not completely dedicated to it. This is the problem of defensive ED/PrE: you may gain 200% threat, but that doesn't cut it if dps beasts gain 400% dps... What you gain in defense is overall not worth what you loose in offense...

[Lauf]

After some thought and some testing I have to say I find little appeal in playing a tank with the game mechanics as they are at the moment. perhaps I'll revisit the notion in the future.
Thank you both for your input.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

The purpose of the "tank" has a very specific criteria: can you establish & hold aggro to ensure you take the damage instead of party members?

This implies:
-that there are other party members there to deal damage, but are not capable of absorbing it well.
-that you can put out enough damage combined with hate to hold aggro against all others.
-that you can indeed absorb, deflect, or negate incoming damage to outlive your enemy/enemies.

monkchers are the best tanks

[Zoink]

How much threat do debuffs generate? Fixed number or percentage based? And are they increased by the hate abilities?

I'm looking into a unconventional hate tank (anti-paladin) who has ravager AoE debuffs. But I have to agree with the poster. In the current state of the game, sword+board tanks are flavor builds only.

[nytethrash]

My favorite tank build is the 12P/6M/2F using Halfling for the dragonmark or dwarf for the hp and con. With the right feat selection I have WWA by lvl 6, GMoF at 18. Its more of a decoy/hate tank thing where you run in , grab agro, and the casters can concentrate on 1 baddy or group of baddies at a time, but also has the advantages of good saves and defense and self-healing so if the group needs 1 person to go run and hit something in a quest no one will have to come look for your stone. Also I have at times helped with raising and healing party members when the healer was incapacitated, and with the reflex and the hp you end up with finding traps with your face doesn't really hurt. Also, completely by personal preference, I get bored with sword & board and monks are just fun

[Tilomere]

Normally to make a survivable character one starts with 2 monk 2 pali on a BF for neg level/paralyze/crit immunity, saves, evasion, and self healing, and then add displacement clickies from shroud. Here is an all purpose tank build that takes into account new content requirements of needing to be able to tank hits, self heal, and also ranged tank when needed, on a character with high saves, decent dps in epics, no-Fail CC, and evasion. A shroud wizardry vi, 150 elemental mana, permablur displacement clicky would fuel this perfectly.


BF Shuriken Tank- 36 point
10 Pali 4 Monk 6 Fighter (order 10 pali 4 monk 6 fighter )

Str 14
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 6
Ch4 14

Skills (UMD, Repair, haggle)

-------


ED: Shiradi (no save CC, dps, mana, self healing, invulnerability)
Twists: Sense Weakness, Reign, Legendary Shield Mastery, 150% Threat, Primal Scream, Improved Combat Expertise, Summer Smoke, Renewal, Cocoon, Bane of Undeath, Purge the Wicked, Energy Burst, Consecrate-Sacred Ground.

Enhancements.

12 -Bladeforged - Communion of Scribing
26 Monk NiS More Shurikens, No Mercy
36 Paladin Sacred Defender Tankyness
6 Kensai-Shuriken


Feats 3 Fighter Free:
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
IC:Thrown
Resilience or Combat Expertise (need higher base int for int 13)



Feats 2 Monk Free:
Deflect Arrows
Shuriken Expertise


Feats 7 Regular
Quick Draw 1
PBS 3
Mental Toughness 6
Force of Personality 9
Improved Mental Toughness 12 (lvl 10 Pali)
IPS 15
Quicken 18

3 Epic
EMT 21
Bulwark 24
No Fail Reflex 27

2 ED
Lasting inspiration+3 Bard Songs (for twisting Reign) or Holy Strike
Double Shot or Hell ball or Reconstruct Spell Power or whatevers. Hell ball with 1200 mana is really nice for some AoE burst CC with Shiradi, and ignores evasion.

[mkmcgw17]

Hey all

I've decided to roll a tank. been toying with the idea for quite some time, but the lack of dps really put me off. anyways, decided to roll one.
after thinking it over, I came up with an odd mix. please let me know what you think (and if there's something I'm missing)

looking at the available options (pally / fighter) the fighter tree seems to provide more dps, and with dps being my main concern, fighter became the natural choice.
when trying to decide just how much fighter levels to take, I noticed that the cores (12/18/20) seem (to me) to give very little benefit. so... 6 fighter?

let's move on.

evasion, or at least the option of evasion when needed, seemed crucial to me. monk gives feats, better saves, and has +3% dodge, +3 reflex, and a +5% heal amp over the rogue option, all within easy reach in its trees. so 2 monk for dirty evasion. done.

this leaves 12 levels untapped.

and here comes the interesting part, 12 levels are a ton of freedom, and the best use for them I could see was the fvs class.
12 fvs levels gives:
self divine buffs
quickened empowered heal (a tank self casting heal? yes please!)
divine might + divine favor (for the love of dps)
AC / hp / prr from the warpriest tree (+ sanctuary core)
divine punishment for some added hate/dps (or does the tank stance make the cooldowns longer?)

so ended up with a split far different than the one I was expecting when I started out (thought it'd probably be 18 fighter 2 pally or some other split of the 2)

my question is, is there any real advantage to going mostly fighter/pally as most tank builds do?
if so, why would a more "normal" split make the better tank?

I recently trd my tank doesnt seem to be many players who know how to play with one .. Most everyone shoots before u get to intim then u have to fight them for aggro. Depends on who u play with my tank had real low dps but could walk through a hurricane. Unless you play with team style players a tank is kind of of obsolete with a few exceptions. Much like trappers and healers lol.

[rdadams1]

I currently have a 1ftr/6pally/13fvs Tank Iconic tank that does quite well and completely self heals. I honestly hate playing tanks so it is on my 2nd account although is quite valuable. With all the spell mitigation and with full healing your probably not really in need of evasion. The new enhancements and better gear have allowed me to hold aggro quite well even with Sorcs in the party. I'm currently fixing up the toon a bit and in the tr train, soon I will make it 2ftr/6pally/12fvs. With a torq, con/op and the boots from fot you can have endless sp if your tanking something that hits a lot.

[Tilomere]

I made the all purpose tank dps self healing evasion s/b build a few posts up.

It is more or less completely unkillable by combat damage, and can solo any EE 5 man dungeon in the game. It can also twist consecrate/sacred ground/renewal and spend points to get healing spring and has mana to AoE heal 5 man EEs or raids. It can also main tank any dungeon or raid on any difficulty, in a DPS ED. It can also CC EE 5 mans with no-save CC. it does low to excellent dps depending on your level of TF shuriken. It can also dance in EE traps, which are the fastest way to kill a lot of things, and take hits to let mobs stop moving to land pins easier or do more dps with IPS, or to simply not kite since you don't feel like moving.

You can still die to instakill mechanics like pit traps or lasers, or the lag monster. Other than that, you are more or less invincible. Here are the unbuffed stats with a GS 45 hp item, but the mana could go up another 150-200 with an elemental mana GS item and better wizardry/deadly RNG necklace.

[elcagador]

I made the all purpose tank dps self healing evasion s/b build a few posts up.

while your idea of making a shuriken tank build with a shield seems interesting, you are losing a lot of dps by not being centered, I guess advanced ninja training is not working because you are not centered and not giving the extra shuriken chance. Also your dex score seems kinda low, so as your ac and prr considering you are using a shield and losing centered abilities, also you are using a tower shield that make you lose evasion. With thunderforged weapons I think Twf and unarmed tanks should work better against single target bosses (can go meele unarmed bladeforged instead and pull better single target dps in Sentinel destiny for tough fights, 12Monk/6 pally/2fighter or rogue or 12 wiz/6 pally/2 monk for spell damage combination with ruin or hellball for burst dps and unarmed/twf combat for sustained dps)

If you want a shuriken semitank (I say semi because your intim and cha should not be very high because too much stat investment with dex and con, also not sure if all hate enhancements and abilities work with ranged), I think you should be at least centered, Builds like shiradi warcannon (wf 11 wiz/monk/rogue or pally) should work good with self reconstruct or making a Fvs/monk/pally if fleshie for the heal spell.

For a S&B tank I think adding a splash of Clr/fvs if fleshie, Wizard if forged, give sp acces to very good spell damage in addition to heal/reconstruct (energy burst, ruin, hell ball, divine crusader stuff, etc) that combined with meele damage from paladin/monk or fighter seems hard to pass, for example this guy video doing well in EE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIbl...ature=youtu.be

[Krelar]

Also your dex score seems kinda low, so as your ac and prr considering you are using a shield and losing centered abilities, also you are using a tower shield that make you lose evasion.

Shields, tower or otherwise, have no effect on evasion. Tower shields do hurt your dodge bonus though.

[elcagador]

Shields, tower or otherwise, have no effect on evasion. Tower shields do hurt your dodge bonus though.

Ah, thanks for the info. For some reason I used to think that Tower shields work like heavy armor and haven't played with them on evasion builds

[Tilomere]

I guess advanced ninja training is not working because you are not centered and not giving the extra shuriken chance.

You guessed wrong. You lose the dex to damage, or 8 damage a hit, which is insignificant on a TF shuriken.

The build does do less damage than a pure dps build, but all tank builds do.

[elcagador]

You guessed wrong. You lose the dex to damage, or 8 damage a hit, which is insignificant on a TF shuriken.

The build does do less damage than a pure dps build, but all tank builds do.

Well, I guess is bugged then but checking the description in wiki it says while centered, so is probably not working as intended. But even with that working my other point is that you are not gaining defenses with the shield, you lose dodge bonuses, even lose ac, gain little Prr but are losing shadow veil and monk stances. If you check the shuriken builds posts you will find that most of them have probably even better physical defenses with higher ac, dodge, some prr from stone stance available and incorporeal while having much better dps (while you have 42 dex, other shuriken builds can easily get more than 20 dexterity over yours that represents more than 40% extra shuriken chance and 15-30 more dmg per shuriken hit with racial enhancements and sneak dmg, not to mention off-hand weapon dps/utility. (I just don't see what you gain over a Warcannon build https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...radi-Warcannon or a fvs https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-kiter-star%29, except for the pally saves and some hate generation, where the pally saves can easily be added to that builds just changing rogue for paladin and hate generation get compensated with better dps and Sentinel destiny option for tanking)