Sword and Board -- How viable is it?

[unbongwah]

PS: Don't go for First Blood if "you're" testing this. It's subpar compared to all other high-end Bswords. The 15% doublestrike SEEMS great but it an alternative is 8% from another source. It's really only 7& higher which won't increase your DPS enough to make up for what you can using Nightmare (even without the nightmare proc).

Just like math class, you have to show your work if you want full credit.

[Xianio]

Just like math class, you have to show your work if you want full credit.

The last time I resorted to using math unbongwah I recall you telling me that I was just a guy with a calculator trying to sound smart. I'm getting all kinds of mixed messages here.

You're more confusing than a lady playing hard to get. :P

[Teh_Troll]

The better comparison will be between 2wF and S&B. 2handed right now is the penultimate DPS tool and I don't suspect S&B has a hope of knocking it off its pedestal.

You're basing this on what?

[Xianio]

You're basing this on what?

Monk/Kensai augmenting critical hits with higher modifiers which are more effective on larger base numbers. That combined with eSOS.

[Teh_Troll]

Monk/Kensai augmenting critical hits with higher modifiers which are more effective on larger base numbers. That combined with eSOS.

Compared to a Balizarde or Mornh? All of which are a hell of a lot easier to get than an ESOS. let's not forget sneak-attack and weapon affects get doubled on TWFing.

[unbongwah]

The last time I resorted to using math unbongwah I recall you telling me that I was just a guy with a calculator trying to sound smart.

I faulted your math before b/c I thought you were neglecting important factors; but imperfect number-crunching is still worth partial credit and better than "pulling stuff outta one's bottom." I know, I've got my PhD in B.S. right here!

To be clear, I am hoping you or someone else can demonstrate S&B is viable now, at least for single-target DPS; I've got at least 2 or 3 S&B alts I've been leveling (trying to hit 20 to get my free epic TR hearts). Basically, I'm hoping the extra hits from doublestrikes + shield bashing help make up for everything which favors THF these days. But it takes more than a few stray comments to prove one's point. Part of why I emphasizes tactics in my S&B builds is it felt like focusing on raw DPS was a losing proposition; whereas +6 STR from Gtr Defensive Stance gave me +3 tactics DCs, so I decided to try to build on that (Kensei & dwarf racial bonuses, Power Surge, etc.).

[Xianio]

I compared it to Bliz. Not the hammer.

Pft imperfect numbers - you added content then acted like I was crazy for not using it originally :P

[unbongwah]

As I said before, gear matters a lot in any DPS discussion; and since you're now mentioning epic weapons by name, thanks for proving my point for me.

[Xianio]

As I said before, gear matters a lot in any DPS discussion; and since you're now mentioning epic weapons by name, thanks for proving my point for me.

Your point seems to be quite malleable if you believe that mate, or perhaps poorly communicated.

Regardless, it's nice to see someone able and interested in showing S&B high end deeps.

[emptysands]

The better comparison will be between 2wF and S&B. 2handed right now is the penultimate DPS tool and I don't suspect S&B has a hope of knocking it off its pedestal.

This is a false comparison. Why should a comparison be fair between builds. Ignoring whether or not TWF or THF is better, which is a complicated analysis in itself. When benchmarking, only the best in each class is reasonable.

Anyway S&B being better than THF/TWF is not the point. Since S&B should bring other benefits, it's more about a s&b build's output in dps mode being close to the top dps builds.

I compared it to Bliz. Not the hammer.

Pft imperfect numbers - you added content then acted like I was crazy for not using it originally :P

Notwithstanding that it is very hard to straight compare different dps modes - unarmed, TWF, animal, THF, S&B, ranged; maths is not the be all. It is a very useful tool, but only if you get good a baseline.

Fundamentally, video's like Haek are really the true tests.

It's also one reason why Haek is often successful at putting good builds together - he tests things in game.


S&B has got a bad wrap in the past due to bugs, nerfs and generally lack of need to have aggro tanks since the shift to epic levels.

[emptysands]

Given that shield bashing is supposed now fixed, is the item effect "Shield Bashing - 20%" stacking with the "Improved Shield Bash" feat as described in the description?

Do the Bashing Nd6 effects get added on any shield bash or only bashing when blocking?

[Xianio]

Additional bashing damage is added during "auto-bashes." I've tested it out with physical and elemental based damage bonuses. Power attack and deadly are also applying.

Still haven't got a shield that gives a large enough amount of +% to bash to answer that for you.

[redspecter23]

I've been toying with an odd s&b build. 13pal/5wiz/2ftr. It's just an attempt to combine the Eldritch Knight S&B benefits, doublestrike and the PRR/AC gains of the SLA's with a paladin defender base. I went bladeforged, but think that a better "all in" approach might be to go with dwarf. I don't expect too much out of EE content. It's more of a test just to see what I can do with a high AC build. Self cast extended displacement seems like a nice bonus to go with the radiant forcefield sla in the dwarf racial tree and the forcefield proc in the eldritch tree.

[emptysands]

Additional bashing damage is added during "auto-bashes." I've tested it out with physical and elemental based damage bonuses. Power attack and deadly are also applying.

Still haven't got a shield that gives a large enough amount of +% to bash to answer that for you.

There is also the SD/Shield Striking tier 2 enhancement. Be nice to know is the percentages actually line up as you'd wish. Never easy to tell with DDO.

If you can get 20% (shield) + 15% (enhancement) + 20% (Improved Shield Bash) = 55% shield bash chance per hit. That's a significant figure. Combined with dwarven axe or bastard sword with 50% glancing blows and is pretty much equal to full GTWF+tempest/monk - ignoring double strikes: 100% main hand + 50% glancing + 55% shield vs 100% main hand + 100% off-hand.

PTWF off-hand double-strike may not apply to the shield. So might gain back there.

Second, shield users can get additional doublestrike bonuses over TWF. Plus if Dwarf Fortress stacks on both the shield and main weapon, then that works well with a high base damage in comparison say weapon attachment.

[Hjarki]

There is also the SD/Shield Striking tier 2 enhancement. Be nice to know is the percentages actually line up as you'd wish. Never easy to tell with DDO.

If you can get 20% (shield) + 15% (enhancement) + 20% (Improved Shield Bash) = 55% shield bash chance per hit. That's a significant figure. Combined with dwarven axe or bastard sword with 50% glancing blows and is pretty much equal to full GTWF+tempest/monk - ignoring double strikes: 100% main hand + 50% glancing + 55% shield vs 100% main hand + 100% off-hand.

Glancing blows aren't actually "50% of main hand damage". They can't crit and you also only get 75% yield (50% yield while moving) since they don't occur on every swing. So it's more like "25% of main hand damage".

In terms of shield bashes, bear in mind that shields aren't really weapons. They've got a 20/x3 critical modifier, rarely (I'd say 'never' but I'll leave a little wiggle room) come with both +20% bashing and stacked weapon effects and few of your enhancements/feats will apply. So that 55% chance of shield bash probably ends up being equivalent to around "30% of main hand damage".

In contrast, your off-hand weapon will probably be about 90% of your main hand damage if you've got 100% off-hand attacks.

I think S&B can work if you're playing a character who isn't full dps, but instead has some other important support role that precludes gearing/enhancing for pure dps. In such a circumstance, you can use the S&B style (and enhancements) to dramatically boost your survivability over a comparable TWF/THF build while not seriously hindering your dps.

[unbongwah]

I've been toying with an odd s&b build. 13pal/5wiz/2ftr. It's just an attempt to combine the Eldritch Knight S&B benefits, doublestrike and the PRR/AC gains of the SLA's with a paladin defender base.

Zeal (pal 14) is +10% doublestrike; what does ftr 2 add that's worth more than that?

They've got a 20/x3 critical modifier, rarely (I'd say 'never' but I'll leave a little wiggle room) come with both +20% bashing and stacked weapon effects and few of your enhancements/feats will apply.

Most shields have the lowest crit profile (20 x2), unfortunately; Madstone Aegis is one of the few exceptions (20 x3), as well as having higher base dmg, Imp Bashing, and Shield Bashing 20%. However, the last time I checked, Imp Crit Blunt doesn't affect shields, which hampers your shield DPS a bit; dunno if that's been changed recently.

[emptysands]

Glancing blows aren't actually "50% of main hand damage". They can't crit and you also only get 75% yield (50% yield while moving) since they don't occur on every swing. So it's more like "25% of main hand damage".

In terms of shield bashes, bear in mind that shields aren't really weapons. They've got a 20/x3 critical modifier, rarely (I'd say 'never' but I'll leave a little wiggle room) come with both +20% bashing and stacked weapon effects and few of your enhancements/feats will apply. So that 55% chance of shield bash probably ends up being equivalent to around "30% of main hand damage".

In contrast, your off-hand weapon will probably be about 90% of your main hand damage if you've got 100% off-hand attacks.

Yeah, I forgot to account for this when thinking about it. 3 in 4 swings with GTHF is a glancing blow. So effectively 37.5% from glancing blows.

Lack of IC is a real pain. If I put a spreadsheet together I'll have to remember that.

I think S&B can work if you're playing a character who isn't full dps, but instead has some other important support role that precludes gearing/enhancing for pure dps. In such a circumstance, you can use the S&B style (and enhancements) to dramatically boost your survivability over a comparable TWF/THF build while not seriously hindering your dps.

Problem is as many say, it's much easier to get enough PRR/AC from monk style builds. So keep survivability and still keep full dps. Still the fun challenge is finding that sweet spot where shield mode is enough dps without losing too much survivability.

Ignoring that fact there are no end game raids that "forced" (*) the use of tanks - like we had in the past (LOB, other raids before power creep) - there is no middle ground at the moment for tank builds.

(*) Forced maybe meaning easier or whatever. Like many MMOs more dps+hps will solve most problems.

Zeal (pal 14) is +10% doublestrike; what does ftr 2 add that's worth more than that?

Most shields have the lowest crit profile (20 x2), unfortunately; Madstone Aegis is one of the few exceptions (20 x3), as well as having higher base dmg, Imp Bashing, and Shield Bashing 20%. However, the last time I checked, Imp Crit Blunt doesn't affect shields, which hampers your shield DPS a bit; dunno if that's been changed recently.

Wall of Wood and Bastion both crit on 19-20/x2 rather than just 20/x2. If OC applies, it may make then close to the Aegis.

Lets see, 2[2d6]+7, 19-20/x2 vs 2[2d10]+8, 20/x3. Assuming OC applies:

(21 + B) * 17 + (21 + B + S ) * 2 * 3
vs
(30 + B) * 18 + (30 + B + S) * 1 * 4

357 + 126 + 23 * B + 6 * S
vs
540 + 120 + 22 * B + 4 * S


483 + 23 * B + 6 * S
vs
660 + 22 * B + 4 * S

=> Aegis is worse if 177 < B + 2S.

So Aegis is going to be better pretty much all of the time.

[unbongwah]

Any idea if Pulverizer applies to shields?

[redspecter23]

Zeal (pal 14) is +10% doublestrike; what does ftr 2 add that's worth more than that?

I completely agree that 14pal/5wiz/1something is probably a much better split if I'm going to keep pally the majority class. I had forgotten about zeal when making the character as it was a very quick TR on a mule I don't play anymore just to see how it looked. If it proves to be at least interesting I'll run my main through the 14 pally version to earn some divine karma perhaps.

[Xianio]

There is also the SD/Shield Striking tier 2 enhancement. Be nice to know is the percentages actually line up as you'd wish. Never easy to tell with DDO.

I don't know if they "line up" (I never did a 1000 hit test) but I did notice an increase in the number of bashes going from just the feat to the feat + the enhancements. So, there's still hope :P

and few of your enhancements/feats will apply

Which feats do you believe not count? Improved Critical currently isn't believed to work but otherwise I'm not sure which feats work with the off-hand but don't work with shields.

Also, shields retain a full ability modifier to damage while offhand only gets 0.5 ability modifiers to damage.

Glancing blows aren't actually "50% of main hand damage". They can't crit and you also only get 75% yield (50% yield while moving) since they don't occur on every swing. So it's more like "25% of main hand damage".

I've HEARD this (ie: rumor status only) that doublestrikes that occur during an animation that triggers a glancing blow attack ALSO trigger a second glancing blow.

Since a good S&B build will generally have over 50 doublestrike, that could mean some serious extra damage. ***Just to be doubly clear: I haven't tested this yet and I may be just passing along nonsense***