Sword and Board -- How viable is it?

[Lurzifer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYmEz4fyj6E

there you go as dps test 1 min slower as your ranger

[Eth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYmEz4fyj6E

there you go as dps test 1 min slower as your ranger

Heh, awesome I had a feeling S/B isn't that bad DPS that people claim it to be, if build correctly at the moment.
Can't watch it completely right now unfortunatly.

[Nightmanis]

I'm currently working on a s&b build, trying to resurrect what I was before the enhancement pass. If everything stacks correctly, (12 fighter/6 favored soul/2 druid) I should be able to hit about 102% double strike while block and cut is active. That's with an EE first blood. Nightmare would be 7% lower, and the sustained bonus with first is ~90%. If primal still stacks I'll be able to hit 87 str with a +10 strength item (assuming primal has been fixed and I can only acquire a +9 item, then 81) which would give me a 76dc stunning blow. I get cure serious for some in battle healing, use silver gimp pots when desperate, and maybe even some light buffage.

Viably it may not be the overall best, but I have high hopes. I've given up shield bashing though it might return if I feel the need for the extra tiny amount out DPs.

As it stands right now, the alchemical shields are the overall best option, especially for my design with a tier 1 air. Tier 3 would be preferred, but only to slot devotion for cures.

The main thing you have to remember is the entirety of your DPs is chaining cleaves and other attacks together. It gets tiring after a bit, but I always hate the idea of just auto attacking.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

I've been trying to experiment with S&B builds.

Best i've come up with so far is a 12/6/2 fvs/pally/monk that takes full sacred defender, uses Divine punishment for dotting, while taking advantage of the light damage vulnerability from Angel of vengeance. Also gets perma-blur from Warpriest, and may grab archon as well if AP's work out.

[Wipey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYmEz4fyj6E

Very cool.

[Miow]

I think bastard sword and dwarven axe are perhaps the best choice because of glancing blows.

[unbongwah]

Best i've come up with so far is a 12/6/2 fvs/pally/monk that takes full sacred defender, uses Divine punishment for dotting, while taking advantage of the light damage vulnerability from Angel of vengeance. Also gets perma-blur from Warpriest, and may grab archon as well if AP's work out.

I've been toying with ideas for S&B Defender / Warpriest builds as well. The problem is I want at least ftr 6 for Block & Cut & defensive stance, monk 2 for 2 more feats & Evasion, pal 2 for Divine Grace, and either cleric 11 or FvS 12 so I have Heal spell. The closest I can come so far is HE monk 2 / ftr 6 / FvS 12 w/pally dilly, but that caps out at +5 to saves (CHA 20) and costs a lot of APs to max out.

If & when Turbine finally implements the other racial PrEs, another option I'd considered is Dwarven Defender pal 15 / monk 2 / ftr 3. Pal 15 gets me 2 lvl 4 spell slots (Zeal and CSW), decent LoHs, high saves, etc.; monk 2 for feats & Evasion; ftr 3 for extra feats, Haste Boost, extra action boost, +1 STR enh.

[Mahalko128]

I think bastard sword and dwarven axe are perhaps the best choice because of glancing blows.

If you have all three THF feats than Bastard Swords do 8% more damage than a Khopesh does. If not, the Khopesh wins the day.

[unbongwah]

OTOH, if you're making a S&B build which doesn't build for glancing blows (e.g., pure pally which doesn't have enough feats for THF chain), then you might as well plan on Balizarde, which out-DPSes epic khops and is keen, so you can save a feat. [EDIT: Mornh is a viable alternative if going for LD w/Pulverizer...to the extent "S&B" and "viable" belong in the same sentence.]

[Teh_Troll]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYmEz4fyj6E

there you go as dps test 1 min slower as your ranger

What did that shield give you that being a centered TWFing Earth-stance build wouldn't?

[voodoogroves]

What did that shield give you that being a centered TWFing Earth-stance build wouldn't?

Aside from not having to have that talk with your parents about your current lifestyle choice? Kinda like when they spot those pictures of you at ComicCon in the incredibly furry outfit and equally incredibly uncomfortable pose?

[unbongwah]

What did that shield give you that being a centered TWFing Earth-stance build wouldn't?

The warm self-satisfaction which can only come from p*ssing in the wind?

Kinda like when they spot those pictures of you at ComicCon in the incredibly furry outfit and equally incredibly uncomfortable pose?

They told me those weren't going on Facebook!

. . . or did you mean that rhetorically?

Hoooow awkward.

[Xianio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYmEz4fyj6E

there you go as dps test 1 min slower as your ranger

Hey, that's nice I've been saying for weeks that S&B dps was almost the same as 2 weapon. I'm glad someone verified it on video in EE

[emptysands]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYmEz4fyj6E

there you go as dps test 1 min slower as your ranger

Nice video as always.

Hey, that's nice I've been saying for weeks that S&B dps was almost the same as 2 weapon. I'm glad someone verified it on video in EE

I'm not entirely sure I'd call this as dps test, as it's hard to compare to peak dps for non-survival builds. It is a good survival-dps test.

That said, the dps is pretty good and a testament to the power of EDs.

Roughly looking one of the resist buffs vs Turigulon HP we have 28:00/110711HP to 27:00/8402HP - which is about 1700 dps.

[Lurzifer]

The build was nowhere optimum just as a testlife.

What you can have as S&B if build with bastard sword + thf feats and EE First Blood:
55% shield proc chance (20% feat, 20% shield, 15% stalwart spec)
65-70% Doublestrike (first blood, feats, twists, past life, block n cut)

This might actually be more dps than twf if build correctly, since Madstone shield has around same base damage rating as a fully modded Cleaver

[emptysands]

Best DPS test in my opinion is Claive, the Carver in Ruined Keep: Sunset Ritual - if you can see HP of humans through monster manual unlock (really not hard to get it).

Based on the Claive video you are doing 13:41/65379HP to 13:03/3943HP or 1616 dps.

Based on your EE DA video for Turigulon you are doing (death ward) 13:58/115803HP to 13:04/4195HP or 2067 dps. You had to back out a few times in order to heal, but I've included that as part of the calculation.

Interesting Haek other video [1] shows the same dps: 8:00/118009HP to 7:05/4345 or 2066 dps.

It's a bit hard to compare his older Juggernaut video as he spends some time off Turigulon.

Might try review a few other EE DA videos.


[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yrfBKHMajE

[Xianio]

That said, the dps is pretty good and a testament to the power of EDs.

I'm not really sure that it is a testament to EDs. As far as S&B is concerned, offensively the only difference is 7% doublestrike when compared to non-S&B weapon setups. In my opinion, this shows the power of S&B, which primary comes from heroic classes, feats and enhancements.

In the end, while ED's are obviously powerful, I don't think the video is a testament to that.

[emptysands]

Exploring a few other EE DA solo Turigulon efforts:

[1] Bladeforged 12 Fighter 6 Ranger 2 Paladin with eSOS and Pinion. 28:08 to 29:29. No HP displayed. Assuming about 121,000 which is the average of four other videos I've seen. I'd say dps is around 1,500.

[2] 18 Barb/2 FvS - 28:30 to 29:38. Big hard to estimate as not a clear start and no exact HP shown. I'm guessing around 1800 dps.

[3] Monkcher (12 monk/6 ranger/2 paladin in Fury - see 16:50) - 33:28 to 36:00 on 122569. So about 810 dps.


[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pg7aT6gq_s
[2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPX2yjEQ8vw
[3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqA12zucfww

[emptysands]

I'm not really sure that it is a testament to EDs. As far as S&B is concerned, offensively the only difference is 7% doublestrike when compared to non-S&B weapon setups. In my opinion, this shows the power of S&B, which primary comes from heroic classes, feats and enhancements.

In the end, while ED's are obviously powerful, I don't think the video is a testament to that.

We can not actually tell what the difference in builds is until Haek posts something

Based on his two videos there is a 2066/1616 = 128% difference. While he says that his shield build is not optimal, getting to 1930 for a "7% difference" is a big 20% jump.

[Xianio]

Well yes, a 28% difference is obviously substantial but I think it should also be expected when looking into 2handed builds.

The better comparison will be between 2wF and S&B. 2handed right now is the penultimate DPS tool and I don't suspect S&B has a hope of knocking it off its pedestal.


PS: Don't go for First Blood if "you're" testing this. It's subpar compared to all other high-end Bswords. The 15% doublestrike SEEMS great but it an alternative is 8% from another source. It's really only 7& higher which won't increase your DPS enough to make up for what you can using Nightmare (even without the nightmare proc).