Sorcerer splash?

[Razlengreenleaf]

Well i just got back after a long hiatus and i thinking on TRing my main into a 18/2 sorc/pali with the intention of doing EE content and my question is...

does High saves(without evasion) really matter now or its still the same old tale where you can deny almost everthing with FoM,Prot from evil,etc?


In that case should i go pure?

[thesnoman]

It seems that the Developers do not want pure Sorcs in the game any more. The 18/2 Sorc/Pally is your easiest way to get into end game, survive, and learn the new ways of the Sorcerer.

Then you'll find your DPS isn't high enough - so you'll blast your way through the Epic Destiny trees to get yourself into the Shiradi Destiny.

You'll like it for a while, but then - when attempting to run the newest content - you'll realize that not only is your DPS not enough, you'll run out of SP half way to the first shrine - not good...

So you'll LR2 into a 18/2 FvS build - you'll play with it for a while and realize that you're DPS is now great and your blue bar lasts much longer...but...you really don't do much good lying on your back.

So you find the new king - 14/4/2 Sorc/Fvs/Pally

The best of all three builds lumped into one. BUT it is fairly gear intensive, requires the Shiradi tree be opened and full of all it's goodness (for EE content anyway) and since your KD immunity is now gone, you need to have good saves (and some balance is good too) - hence the 2 pally.


OK - so I recounted my journey through the Shiradi Sorc builds - live and learn.

[thouston]

oh no!

im only halfway through the 18/2 life,
could you post or link a 14/4/2 build?

[Da_Most_Shady]

It seems that the Developers do not want pure Sorcs in the game any more.

Sorc was my favorite class for a long time. I was a Sorc before we got the savants and everyone told me I should TR into a wizzie. I have always been a pure Sorc and when we first got the savant trees it was great. Finally were able to do significant damage and lead the kill count, something I could care less about but it really upset alot of meless and they came to the forums to cry about it. And ever since then they have been nerfing sorcs little by little with each new update.

So now I have a Sorc with 22 past lives that is pretty much useless and I am starting to believe what you have said about them not wanting pure Sorcs in the game anymore. I mean the newest prestige is the Eldritch Knight. I find my Sorc running out of sp so fast now, lost over 500 SP with the new enhancement pass don't know how but I did. The damage output is a joke and you can forget about any type of DCs landing.

Now I am stuck trying to find a good splash myself. I tried the fvs one and it could possibly work with a fire savant since the enhancements from one of the fvs tree adds to fire damage and fire crits. Only tried it on lamania but not tested it too thoroughly to see if it would be good or not. But I would suggest it over the pally. I think people are really over estimating the value of the saves. As a pure sorc I very rarely run into trouble because of my saves. The most I do have trouble with is being neg leveled because I am too lazy to use my visors.

But I honestly think the sorc class is dead, at least as far as EE goes. I used to be able to solo EE. I solo'ed all of Epic GH, minus the dragons in EE TOR always had guildies that wanted to come, the first week but can't solo the new stuff and mostly because of the low SP pool and low damage. No way am I drinking 30 to 40 pots or more just to finish a quest.

Another thing you may want to check out, and I can't believe I am even saying this, are the melee Sorc builds especially with the new prestige coming out. I think I just throw up a bit in my mouth.

[Wizza]

How about people stop posting **** about pure Sorcerers dead?

Come on Argo, we will show you how to play a proper pure Sorcerer.

[Da_Most_Shady]

How about people stop posting **** about pure Sorcerers dead?

Come on Argo, we will show you how to play a proper pure Sorcerer.

I am on Argo and I have been a ****** pure Sorcerer forever. And I know how to play a pure sorc with the best of them. And you should know that they have been nerfed since you are a pure human sorc as well.

Go solo the new stormhorn quests, on EE of course anyone can solo EH or below, without re-entries or using a ton of SP pots then you will see how they are dead.

I have ran with you before doing EE GH. My sorc is Azaris but if you want to "show" me how to play, name the time I will be there to learn.

[Wizza]

I am on Argo and I have been a ****** pure Sorcerer forever. And I know how to play a pure sorc with the best of them. And you should know that they have been nerfed since you are a pure human sorc as well.

Go solo the new stormhorn quests, on EE of course anyone can solo EH or below, without re-entries or using a ton of SP pots then you will see how they are dead.

I have ran with you before doing EE GH. My sorc is Azaris but if you want to "show" me how to play, name the time I will be there to learn.

So your counter argument is that if I re-entry im a **** sorc? Okay.
Oh and btw, I'm not sure even a Shiradi will do EE WGU without a re-entry or a pot. Rest of the quests? Cakewalk.

This is not a matter of Major pots or not. It's you the one saying "Pure Sorcs suck". They don't. Get over it. I don't see how they nerfed them beside Wand and Scroll Mastery. My dps is higher than ever (well, my crit are nerfed indeed but got plenty of crit chance to make up for it), got tons of HP, saves are **** as always. My DCs are almost no-fail.

I even got 6% dodge and dodged a Cetus' arrow of manyshot once!

So yeah. Anytime you see my lfm, feel free to join.

[Da_Most_Shady]

So your counter argument is that if I re-entry im a **** sorc? Okay.
Oh and btw, I'm not sure even a Shiradi will do EE WGU without a re-entry or a pot. Rest of the quests? Cakewalk.

It is not just WGU that is impossible without pots and re-entry which is the point. If you cannot complete a quest without doing so, then yea your class is gimped. If they took away the ability to do that then you would never be able to complete a quest so how is that not being gimp?

I am actually shocked at your complete reversal of sorcs being gimped after all the threads and posts you started about them being nerfed.

This is not a matter of Major pots or not. It's you the one saying "Pure Sorcs suck". They don't. Get over it. I don't see how they nerfed them beside Wand and Scroll Mastery. My dps is higher than ever (well, my crit are nerfed indeed but got plenty of crit chance to make up for it), got tons of HP, saves are **** as always. My DCs are almost no-fail.

They got nerfed by lower SP pool, lost over 500 SP on mine, their dps might be a bit higher but only because we have equipment bonuses much higher than before not because of the enhancemennts, and you can forget about any DCs other than your evo/conjuration spells working depending on what savant you are. I don't know how long you have been a sorc but I have been one before savants came out and have seen them lose power with each update after the release of savants due to the outcry on the forums by melees that were butthurt over not leading kill counts anymore. My dps used to be great and could also instakill before they nerfed that into worthlisness.

So I guess it depends on what kind of sorc you want to be and are happy with. My sorc was a necro sorc and could obliterate things that were not able to instakill and now there is no way to land an instakill and it costs too much sp to complete a quest solo. Maybe you are too out of touch with the game and completely rely on parties to carry you through and do not notice the change but it is there and it is bad. So bad that I do not even play my sorc that I spent over two years building.

And it may be easy for you to "get over it" since you only put a few lives on your sorc but when you invested 22 lives and they radically change the class so much so that you can't complete content without drinking pots or being carried through it it kind of stings a bit.

Believe me, I love my pure sorc and would always decline any advice about multiclassing or going WF. It pains me to see my beloved class being gutted. Turbine is even trying to get people to play melee sorcs now with the new prestige. As much as it saddens me, it is the way of the future.

EDIT:

My dps is higher than ever (well, my crit are nerfed indeed but got plenty of crit chance to make up for it)

Forgot to touch on this. Crits are the main "DPS" of sorcs. They rely completely on crits and how often they can achieve them. Without crits your dps will suck and never be able to kill anything without using a ton of SP. That alone is a huge nerf.

[Wizza]

It is not just WGU that is impossible without pots and re-entry which is the point. If you cannot complete a quest without doing so, then yea your class is gimped. If they took away the ability to do that then you would never be able to complete a quest so how is that not being gimp?

I am actually shocked at your complete reversal of sorcs being gimped after all the threads and posts you started about them being nerfed.

So name any other quest that is impossible to do.

And no, it's not the point. Not even shiradis can solo the most difficult quest, which is WGU. So by your definition even Shiradi splashes suck?

They got nerfed by lower SP pool, lost over 500 SP on mine, their dps might be a bit higher but only because we have equipment bonuses much higher than before not because of the enhancemennts, and you can forget about any DCs other than your evo/conjuration spells working depending on what savant you are. I don't know how long you have been a sorc but I have been one before savants came out and have seen them lose power with each update after the release of savants due to the outcry on the forums by melees that were butthurt over not leading kill counts anymore. My dps used to be great and could also instakill before they nerfed that into worthlisness.

Whut? Lost 500 SP? I lost like 60 lol. DPS higher because of the equip? I'm not even rolling a higher SP equip than before lol. My equip gave me exactly 12 Spell power with Shadowfall cause I can't be bothered to look for one more. Most of the damage increase is coming from Enhancements, better sinergy with Fire savant, Hellball and Spellcraft.

So I guess it depends on what kind of sorc you want to be and are happy with. My sorc was a necro sorc and could obliterate things that were not able to instakill and now there is no way to land an instakill and it costs too much sp to complete a quest solo. Maybe you are too out of touch with the game and completely rely on parties to carry you through and do not notice the change but it is there and it is bad. So bad that I do not even play my sorc that I spent over two years building.

Then it is your build that sucks. Sorcerer will always be behind in Necro but don't speak for the Sorcerer class as a whole. By your words, your sorc was a necro one so you have never built your sorc for damage. So how can you even say that it sucks?

And it may be easy for you to "get over it" since you only put a few lives on your sorc but when you invested 22 lives and they radically change the class so much so that you can't complete content without drinking pots or being carried through it it kind of stings a bit.

As I said, it's your build. Not the class.

EDIT:

Forgot to touch on this. Crits are the main "DPS" of sorcs. They rely completely on crits and how often they can achieve them. Without crits your dps will suck and never be able to kill anything without using a ton of SP. That alone is a huge nerf.

Yup, I chug 20 pots per quest. Dang!

[Da_Most_Shady]

Whut? Lost 500 SP? I lost like 60 lol.

I do not know how it worked out that way but before expansion I had over 4k sp now I only have 3500 with same gear and still level 25.

And no, it's not the point. Not even shiradis can solo the most difficult quest, which is WGU. So by your definition even Shiradi splashes suck?

I am sorry I am not understanding your logic on this. How is not being able to complete a quest with outside sources for sp not a crippling nerf? And I never said anything about shiradis so have no idea where you coming up with that or even bringing them up. Shiradi sucks. I have always out dps'ed shiradis in my group.

Then it is your build that sucks. Sorcerer will always be behind in Necro but don't speak for the Sorcerer class as a whole. By your words, your sorc was a necro one so you have never built your sorc for damage. So how can you even say that it sucks?

No you did not read properly. I said I could instakill and obliterate mobs immune to instakill. I built my sorc to do both and was able to do both up until Shadowfell. EE GH was no problem.

I want to see your completions on EE solo. It is obvious to me that you have not tried or else you would know what I am talking about. You keep bringing up shiradi but shiradi is not even a sorc destiny and should not even be working the way it does now and am just waiting for the day when they fix it. Magic missile is only one spell and should only have one chance to proc a shiradi affect and once that gets fixed shiradis will no longer exist.

Yup, I chug 20 pots per quest. Dang!

Maybe a failed attempt of communication has happened here. I never said, and even explicitly made a point to say EE, any quest is impossible without pots. But I did say the new Stormhorns on EE solo is impossible without pots or re-entry. If you wish to prove me wrong I am more than happy to sit outside the quest in your party to watch you do it. Until then, this whole conversation is going no where. I have been trying to complete these quests on EE solo like I did with EE GH and can't even come close because of the SP consumption. I refuse to chug pots to finish a quest unless it is really necessary. But to chug 20 or more pots to complete is rediculous.

[Wizza]

I do not know how it worked out that way but before expansion I had over 4k sp now I only have 3500 with same gear and still level 25.

IIRC, you lost only Energy of the DragonBlooded. Can't think of anything else that made you lose 500 SP. In fact, it is not reflected in my gear. I have 41xx SP on my pure Sorcerer.

I am sorry I am not understanding your logic on this. How is not being able to complete a quest with outside sources for sp not a crippling nerf? And I never said anything about shiradis so have no idea where you coming up with that or even bringing them up. Shiradi sucks. I have always out dps'ed shiradis in my group.

Because it is not coming from the fact that pure Sorcerer spends tons of sp (even thou they of course spend much more SP than Shiradis). It is how the quests are set up. You are complaining about the lack of sp to complete a quest so why wouldn't you be Shiradi where they use 3-5 sp per spell? It's the most obvious choice.

I want to see your completions on EE solo. It is obvious to me that you have not tried or else you would know what I am talking about. You keep bringing up shiradi but shiradi is not even a sorc destiny and should not even be working the way it does now and am just waiting for the day when they fix it. Magic missile is only one spell and should only have one chance to proc a shiradi affect and once that gets fixed shiradis will no longer exist.

Yup, I've not tried them. No idea what I'm talking about!

Oh wait, that was you. It's you who ever never built a Sorc for DPS mainly and have never attempted any of the EE Wheloon and Stormhorns on your pure Sorcerer, not me. I've soloed every Wheloon and Stormhorn but EE WGU on my sorc. Noone of them required even a pot. No idea what you are talking about. Which quest are you thinking that is so hard to require a pot? Tell me please, I'm curious.

Now, about WGU: pretty sure it will require re-entries whenever I will try those. And I'm fine with it, because there is no ****ing way I'll be able to handle 200+ mobs, 4 200k pillars, 3 bosses with just 3 shrines.

Maybe a failed attempt of communication has happened here. I never said, and even explicitly made a point to say EE, any quest is impossible without pots. But I did say the new Stormhorns on EE solo is impossible without pots or re-entry. If you wish to prove me wrong I am more than happy to sit outside the quest in your party to watch you do it. Until then, this whole conversation is going no where. I have been trying to complete these quests on EE solo like I did with EE GH and can't even come close because of the SP consumption. I refuse to chug pots to finish a quest unless it is really necessary. But to chug 20 or more pots to complete is rediculous.

Got no time to solo a quest for you to prove a point. I already did most of them, believe me or not I don't care. But stop spitting non-sense about pure Sorcerer dead. Whenever you want to build a pure Sorc specced for damage mainly, then you will be able to handle solo Stormhorns. Necro? Nop.

As I said, join my pugs and you will see. Otherwise, keep playing your splits/shiradis/EK/whatever you want without saying a class sucks just because you can't do something. There is plenty of us that can.

[era42]

Not to derail from elitist circle-*** of "I can solo all EE" and "I did it before you, I'm more 1337", but here's my view of a newer alt-sorc.

My third-life try at sorc (the 2-pally version) starts to see the struggle. Good enough in parties, but the saves of the mobs are making the playing way annoying already. This life I at least have the DC twist from magister, but still the evades ramp up even on pre-u19 content. WF with max cha, +8 item, no yugo favor, no store pots, no insightfuls, +2 evoc weapon. Sure, my gear lacks alot, but it feels annoying to try to ramp up the best possible gear to be able to solo quests that my firstlifer melee toons in their level-16 gear just breeze through just by summoning Albus. Yes, I'll party instead of solo, but getting those save save evade save messages on mobs that take less damage from a non-crit spell than a -1 level from a leveldrainer, makes it feel pretty pointless.

Starting on Shiradi next, I guess that will keep me entertained for a while, but when it hits cap, then what? Back to either running just von3, or being a gimp in the harder quests? I guess the melee sorc is the only proper way to go to grind the ED:s, but I have my melee toons for that. Already the TR tooth is aching on the sorc, at least the heroic levels are entertaining, if somewhat silly due to being so overpowered.

To me it looks like there are 3 options to play sorc.
1) Draconic destiny: SLA SLA energyburst, kite while timers, repeat
2) Shiradi: Magicmissile, chainmissile, repeat (spells chosen vary, idea stays the same)
3) Anything else: SLA SLA realspell realspell, ohgodwhere'stheshrine or chuckapot

I don't need the same easymode the heroic levels 1-18 are, but the double difficulty from super-hp and super-saves makes me go back to other toons who only suffer the single-difficulty of super-hp.

[era42]

Oh yes, and don't forget that sorcerers bring way more scaling than what the melee toons do.

[Sokól]

Well i just got back after a long hiatus and i thinking on TRing my main into a 18/2 sorc/pali with the intention of doing EE content and my question is...

does High saves(without evasion) really matter now or its still the same old tale where you can deny almost everthing with FoM,Prot from evil,etc?


In that case should i go pure?

I went helf (pally dilly) and splashed 2 monk levels on my sorc and I really like it.

I use both draconic and shiradi depends on quest and my mood.

Still gearing him out but I am doing ee regularly now and the potential esp. defensive is huge.

Only big con is that the dilly is very expensive ap wise.

Edit: I also took the dragonmark of storm, the spell call lightning storm does really good dmg and has a large aoe.

[Wizza]

To me it looks like there are 3 options to play sorc.
1) Draconic destiny: SLA SLA energyburst, kite while timers, repeat
2) Shiradi: Magicmissile, chainmissile, repeat (spells chosen vary, idea stays the same)
3) Anything else: SLA SLA realspell realspell, ohgodwhere'stheshrine or chuckapot

Which is why I'm telling you don't know how to play a pure Sorc focused on damage.

3) is much more effective than you think on a pure Sorcerer. As a matter of fact, I just soloed EE WGU with 4 re-entries, 2 of which unnecessary but was my first time soloing it. Now:

Can I do it without 1-2 reentries? Probably not.
Are pure Sorcerers dead? Most definetely not which is my point.

Also, you admitted your alt sorc is newer. So I can't even understand how you know to play it properly in EEs. Maybe you people should try it before talking.

[Sokól]

Which is why I'm telling you don't know how to play a pure Sorc focused on damage.

3) is much more effective than you think on a pure Sorcerer. As a matter of fact, I just soloed EE WGU with 4 re-entries, 2 of which unnecessary but was my first time soloing it. Now:

Can I do it without 1-2 reentries? Probably not.
Are pure Sorcerers dead? Most definetely not which is my point.

Also, you admitted your alt sorc is newer. So I can't even understand how you know to play it properly in EEs. Maybe you people should try it before talking.

I agree with Wizza pure sorcs are very viable in ee but you have to have high evocation and the knowledge how to deal with mobs with evasion and high saves.

Otto's Irresistible Dance ftw

[Enoach]

Sorcerer Builds have always been in flux, but with the changes to the enhancement system, saves, spell resistance, Defense such as AC/PRR/Dodge, Epic Destinies, etc. A wider variety of how to build a Sorcerer has come out.

I would argue that the "Right" build suits the players style.

The advantage of levels 19 and 20 of a class have really become smaller and smaller (and can be argued with some classes and not even being worth what they bring vs a splash)

Being a person that "grew" in this game starting on '06 and being an old PnP player, I learned tricks on spell conservation (translated to Spell Point Conservation for DDO). Now there are many ways to "Win" at a Quest in DDO, that is one of the nice aspects.

While I understand the need for people to solo quests (Personal and demographically) I really don't want EE setup with Solo play in mind. That being said, it should take resources, strategy and quick thinking to complete. I'm sad that the no Re-entry part of Epic was removed with the expansion of Epics, for me that was the part that made it "Epic" a one chance to succeed. But re-entry is now part of the strategy used to run some epic elite quests.

As for the two back and forth on the subject of Pure is dead vs Nope, they are alive and thriving. The answer is simple: each has an opinion based on their own findings and perspective as well as vision of how a sorcerer should play. Because of this they have each come to a different conclusion, again because it is entirely based on their own observations and interpretation of what they see and feel.

Both a Pure and Splash can continue to operate in this game and be successful, they just both will play differently.

[Wizza]

As for the two back and forth on the subject of Pure is dead vs Nope, they are alive and thriving. The answer is simple: each has an opinion based on their own findings and perspective as well as vision of how a sorcerer should play. Because of this they have each come to a different conclusion, again because it is entirely based on their own observations and interpretation of what they see and feel.

Both a Pure and Splash can continue to operate in this game and be successful, they just both will play differently.

While this is true, one of the different conclusions is wrong simple because someone cannot make a build to work properly in EE. And while this is actually not a problem, it's really far away from saying that "that build sucks".

I don't like Shiradis. I tried it and it just sucked FOR ME. But I don't go around claiming that Shiradi sucks and are dead.

What thesnoman and Da_Most_Shady should underline in their posts is that Pure Sorcs sucks FOR THEM. As Enoach said, they are well alive, far away from being dead or sub-optimal or anything else.

[Da_Most_Shady]

IIRC, you lost only Energy of the DragonBlooded. Can't think of anything else that made you lose 500 SP. In fact, it is not reflected in my gear. I have 41xx SP on my pure Sorcerer.

I actually figured this one out. My twists were bugged for some reason. I guess you were supposed to redo them when enhancement pass came out. So I only lost 100 or so which is because of the loss of Dragonblooded.

Oh wait, that was you. It's you who ever never built a Sorc for DPS mainly

This part is so laughable because it does not take much to build for DPS. You just assume because I took necro feats that I gave up DPS. All it takes to "build for DPS" is the maximize, empower, heighten, and evo feats. Boy that is so hard to do. I also have 3x sorc past lives and the wizzie PL for +1 to all DCs for even more evo dcs. So yea you are right I did not build for dps.

Otherwise, keep playing your splits/shiradis/EK/whatever you want without saying a class sucks just because you can't do something. There is plenty of us that can.

I guess you just been replying without reading or replying to the wrong person. First you talk to me about shiradis, which I never mentioned, and now you telling me to keep playiing my splits which I also never have done on my sorc. I have always been a pure sorc and always defended pure sorcs. But to pretend they have not been nerfed is nonsense. I know because I have been playing one for so long.

While I will admit that when I said they are dead I used the wrong phrase. They have just been nerfed to be less able to do the massive damage they used to be able to.

That's all I have to say about that like Forest Gump.

What thesnoman and Da_Most_Shady should underline in their posts is that Pure Sorcs sucks FOR THEM. As Enoach said, they are well alive, far away from being dead or sub-optimal or anything else.

My pure sorc rocks thank you very much.

[Wizza]

This part is so laughable because it does not take much to build for DPS. You just assume because I took necro feats that I gave up DPS. All it takes to "build for DPS" is the maximize, empower, heighten, and evo feats. Boy that is so hard to do. I also have 3x sorc past lives and the wizzie PL for +1 to all DCs for even more evo dcs. So yea you are right I did not build for dps.

So you have 3x Necro, 3x Evo focuses feats, Evocation Special from Magister, Evocation thing from DI, +5 Evocation and Necromancy focus items on one char?

Sure. I believe you If you are missing one of these things, then you are not built for it. Also, you can't have Evocation and Necromancy Specialist from Magister at the same time so you will be missing +3 Evocation DC AT LEAST which is HUGE. So no, you are not built for DPS. Next time do the homework before trying to say something.

While I will admit that when I said they are dead I used the wrong phrase. They have just been nerfed to be less able to do the massive damage they used to be able to.

Only crits and not much. They haven't been nerfed in any other way. And we have roughly 2x Spell crit chance then we used to have.

Oh and dead =\= nerfed FYI.

My pure sorc rocks thank you very much.

Yup. You first claim that they are dead and then you say your Sorc rocks! Awesome!