For the love of Pete, enough with these terrible designs - karma

[patang01]

Tying karma to specific spheres is silly. If off destiny leveling now is a terrible mindnumbing process, then imagine doing so for tree times the amount of XP (roughly 2 mill to cap a destiny right?).

I just don't understand why karma has to be tied to a specific sphere. Shouldn't it just be a matter of hitting 6 million points (that is 6 mill xp)? I mean the only thing you need to heroic reincarnate is to hit level 20 and have the heart of wood. Done. Plus you always level in a enhancement that is in perfect synergy with your class.

With off destiny karma leveling in a sphere you're completely out of sync with your class, for 6 million points. So if you try to level off destines at the same time as you gain karma you will effectively prolong the entire process. And since you can only gain valor (so far) by completing sagas it's highly ineffective to try to gain karma in anything BUT the saga quests. Even if you find other quests that are better to level in (like von3)

This is just awful design. Worse then regular off destiny leveling.

Turbine cannot have created a worse incentive for anyone to want to ER more then a few times and there's no real point even contemplation something like a 'completionist' or unlocking all extra fate points (1 for every 4 ER).

This is fail from the beginning.

Untie fate points from destinies to allow people to level as they like. Put it on it's own XP track.
Untie Karma from spheres. 6 million points is 6 million points. If it only takes 6 mill point to ER, then why should it matter if it's done in A sphere or B sphere?

[DrakHar]

Tying karma to specific spheres is silly. If off destiny leveling now is a terrible mindnumbing process, then imagine doing so for tree times the amount of XP (roughly 2 mill to cap a destiny right?).

I just don't understand why karma has to be tied to a specific sphere. Shouldn't it just be a matter of hitting 6 million points (that is 6 mill xp)? I mean the only thing you need to heroic reincarnate is to hit level 20 and have the heart of wood. Done. Plus you always level in a enhancement that is in perfect synergy with your class.

With off destiny karma leveling in a sphere you're completely out of sync with your class, for 6 million points. So if you try to level off destines at the same time as you gain karma you will effectively prolong the entire process. And since you can only gain valor (so far) by completing sagas it's highly ineffective to try to gain karma in anything BUT the saga quests. Even if you find other quests that are better to level in (like von3)

This is just awful design. Worse then regular off destiny leveling.

Turbine cannot have created a worse incentive for anyone to want to ER more then a few times and there's no real point even contemplation something like a 'completionist' or unlocking all extra fate points (1 for every 4 ER).

This is fail from the beginning.

Untie fate points from destinies to allow people to level as they like. Put it on it's own XP track.
Untie Karma from spheres. 6 million points is 6 million points. If it only takes 6 mill point to ER, then why should it matter if it's done in A sphere or B sphere?

Then heroic TR into a class, and then ETR and grind out all you want from a sphere, I guess.

But doesn't it cap when you cap just one destiny?
If so, for example, melee would be easy except for arcane.

[patang01]

Then heroic TR into a class, and then ETR and grind out all you want from a sphere, I guess.

But doesn't it cap when you cap just one destiny?
If so, for example, melee would be easy except for arcane.

Why would I ever want to start collecting gear for a class I would seldom use that is completely different from say my fighter?

That's a lot of either BTA or BTC type gear just to get a small benefit from a class I have no desire to play on that toon for a majority of my time.

What a horrible waste of my entertainment time. Forcing someone to re-level as a completely different class just to do a sphere?

There's just no logic in circumventing terrible design by an even longer trip when a simple and better design fixes it. Like untying karma from the actual sphere.

DONE. Everyone can continue leveling any way they want but those who just don't want to waste their time gagging themselves on poor entertainment value continue to have fun.

[Teh_Troll]

People will either mindlessly karma farm whatever "Impossible Demands" is determined to be best or quit playing all together.

The best thing about the ETR system is that all in all it's pretty terrible so if you don't bother with the hamster wheel you're really not missing much.

[oradafu]

[patang01]

People will either mindlessly karma farm whatever "Impossible Demands" is determined to be best or quit playing all together.

The best thing about the ETR system is that all in all it's pretty terrible so if you don't bother with the hamster wheel you're really not missing much.

But then what? How long am I going to have to wait before Turbine adds something of value for my high level toons? Sure - I can take off a month or 2 doing something else because this process is as appealing as pealing paint, but what else do they have lined up that will give me the reason to stick with them?
The latest xpack was a gigantic dud. And they're building U20 to have a similar if not worse effect. 2 more quest, 2 unique bad items and 2 good augments (only pulled on EE). I just don't get where the reason is for me to do this while waiting for something better.

[Raoull]

People will either mindlessly karma farm whatever "Impossible Demands" is determined to be best or quit playing all together.

The best thing about the ETR system is that all in all it's pretty terrible so if you don't bother with the hamster wheel you're really not missing much.

I don't understand the "grind until I am ideal" concept.... ideal to do... what?

I like the new epic TR system. The rewards don't have to be that great, because the sacrifice is relatively small compared to heroic TR. You don't lose destiny XP, merely epic levels. The first few levels will come back fast, and characters will quickly be back into a position to play top end content. The differences between a lvl 28 toon and a lvl 24 toon aren't all that large. And even just playing in a single destiny, there are 9 epic lives to go through before XP progress is wasted. It is totally unlike the twist of fate grind where you have to purposefully gimp your toon in order to continue making progress.

So just play epic toons, sometimes if they have their XP capped and enough Karma.... epic TR them for a small bonus, and to make it so that XP can again be earned.

Not grind grind grind until they're all fleshed out and then do.... what exactly?

[Teh_Troll]

Not grind grind grind until they're all fleshed out and then do.... what exactly?

Now? There really isn't anything to do. End-game is done in DDO.

As for the rest of your argument . . . you find grind that really doesn't give you ANY benefit to be worth it at all?

ETR is weaksauce. At least heroic has some benefits and honestly . . . the heroic game is a better game anyway.

[patang01]

Now? There really isn't anything to do. End-game is done in DDO.

As for the rest of your argument . . . you find grind that really doesn't give you ANY benefit to be worth it at all?

ETR is weaksauce. At least heroic has some benefits and honestly . . . the heroic game is a better game anyway.

I don't mind the EPLs, they're okay but really not a compelling reason to run EEs. But it's awesome for your heroic progress (which is kind of the issue).

[Raoull]

Now? There really isn't anything to do. End-game is done in DDO.

As for the rest of your argument . . . you find grind that really doesn't give you ANY benefit to be worth it at all?

As to the first part.... well, I'm naively holding out hope that within a year we'll have a lvl cap of 30 and 3 -5 decent end game raids, and we'll have a real end game again. Until then, I'm just fleshing out some toons, and making some new alts.

As to the second, I don't consider this to be no benefit. There is a huge difference to me between low benefit and no benefit.

For example, back in the lvl cap 25 days, I hated running a Hard Shroud. The difference between earning 2K Xp an elite shroud and 0 on a hard shroud mattered to me. I realize fully that 2K is pretty close to 0. I acknowledge my own irrationality.

For the Epic TRs, I'd like a benefit small enough that folks don't feel forced to do it. But I'll definitely take small amounts of bonus HPs and PRR. The AC isn't too horrible, although it is close. Ok, the absorb is kinda sad. Maybe 3 Universal Spell Power instead, or Spell points (probably 2-3 times what HPs get).

EDIT: Actually, to keep the flavor more similar elemental absorption seems pretty good (considering PRR, AC and HPs are the others), it just needs to be substantially more. 3% would be good, or maybe even 4% per PL. 36% elemental absorb is certainly not more powerful than the HPs from primal. And the AC one is actually a huge chunk of AC. That would should be good (or even OP), except AC is so busted at end game...

[Vellrad]

Not only that they force us to play in off destinies, they also force us to play in off classes!

I should not be forced to grind 4 million paladin XP if I want to have paladin past life for my barb. They should let me pick heroic past life regardless of which class I played at heroic levels!

[Teh_Troll]

As to the second, I don't consider this to be no benefit. There is a huge difference to me between low benefit and no benefit.

No, there isn't.

[Teh_Troll]

Not only that they force us to play in off destinies, they also force us to play in off classes!

I should not be forced to grind 4 million paladin XP if I want to have paladin past life for my barb. They should let me pick heroic past life regardless of which class I played at heroic levels!

I'm hoping this is sarcastic . . . but in case it's not . . .

8 pally/6 ranger/6 rogue. or whatever, we have enough multi-classing options to NOT have to actually play a terrible class to get it's PL.

EDs? Meh, it just sucks.

And yes, I concede that it makes total sense to have to earn karma in a sphere to get the EPL from it . . . but the "this sucks" factor of that is high enough to out-weigh the logic.

[voodoogroves]

Now? There really isn't anything to do. End-game is done in DDO.

As for the rest of your argument . . . you find grind that really doesn't give you ANY benefit to be worth it at all?

ETR is weaksauce. At least heroic has some benefits and honestly . . . the heroic game is a better game anyway.

On another heroic life. Running through quests and it hit me ... newer epic quests and questing to me feel more like the large portion of them are gimmicks, puzzles and traps that look like a quest. They may have neat eye candy, but they are fairly uninteresting. Like a puzzle, once you figure them out the challenge is gone and it becomes execution instead - and that doesn't have the replay value.

- Unsavable, unavoidable mechanics
- Areas were specific tactics only work (or a limited set)
- Linear at the core, even though they don't look linear

There is no Tear of Dhakaan with good XP optionals and some traps so that the party can run together or split up if they think they can handle it - and where on hard the Shamen cast Sleet Storm. There is no STK with the fire/spike trap room. No VON5. No Partycrashers (which, needs the DCs updated but has an excellent end-fight mechanic that encourages grouping or invsetment in skills). No Monestary of the Scorpion that mixes puzzles, traps and combat.

[Teh_Troll]

On another heroic life. Running through quests and it hit me ... newer epic quests and questing to me feel more like the large portion of them are gimmicks, puzzles and traps that look like a quest. They may have neat eye candy, but they are fairly uninteresting. Like a puzzle, once you figure them out the challenge is gone and it becomes execution instead - and that doesn't have the replay value.

- Unsavable, unavoidable mechanics
- Areas were specific tactics only work (or a limited set)
- Linear at the core, even though they don't look linear

There is no Tear of Dhakaan with good XP optionals and some traps so that the party can run together or split up if they think they can handle it - and where on hard the Shamen cast Sleet Storm. There is no STK with the fire/spike trap room. No VON5. No Partycrashers (which, needs the DCs updated but has an excellent end-fight mechanic that encourages grouping or invsetment in skills). No Monestary of the Scorpion that mixes puzzles, traps and combat.

It's not just quests, it's the game mechanics. heroic content feels more like D&D.

[patang01]

Not only that they force us to play in off destinies, they also force us to play in off classes!

I should not be forced to grind 4 million paladin XP if I want to have paladin past life for my barb. They should let me pick heroic past life regardless of which class I played at heroic levels!

That would be true if the enhancement you run in had no synergy with the class you level.

Unlike epic levels where it's fully possible to level an epic enhancement (destiny) that offers little or nothing with the class you picked.

The enhancement you use with your class adds great benefits as you level 1-20 making it possible that together with feats and gear to quest in higher diff levels.

In a off destiny that becomes almost impossible. There's like night and day difference being in a destiny with synergy and being in a off.

The past life is not the issue. It's the design of the system that forces you to do this out of synergy that is. With heroic reincarnation we will ALWAYS level in a ideal enhancement for that class which makes it easier and more enjoyable and gives you the ability to challenge yourself.

That's not true in Epic. They're now creating a system where you will be forced to regress your ability to challenge yourself as the levels increase as your class gets further and further behind the power curve with higher level.

[rimble]

I'm hoping this is sarcastic . . . but in case it's not . . .

8 pally/6 ranger/6 rogue. or whatever, we have enough multi-classing options to NOT have to actually play a terrible class to get it's PL.

EDs? Meh, it just sucks.

And yes, I concede that it makes total sense to have to earn karma in a sphere to get the EPL from it . . . but the "this sucks" factor of that is high enough to out-weigh the logic.

Agreed. There are some exceptions due to restrictions...Bard, Barbarian, Monk, Paladin...but for the most part, during Heroic TR, you can still play the character you want.

12 Fighter/8 Monk, 12 Cleric/8 Monk, 12 Paladin/8 Monk, 12 Druid/8 Monk...for the most part, for me...they all play basically Monk-like with a little twist. For my Monk situation, with Bard and Barbarian I'm kind of screwed, but I can deal with an exception or two. They play ESPECIALLY similar now since you can get the max level PrE ability with only 6 class levels (or 8 for Fighter).

Being stuck out of your ED in Epic levels is a MASSIVE drop in capability compared to that.

[patang01]

Agreed. There are some exceptions due to restrictions...Bard, Barbarian, Monk, Paladin...but for the most part, during Heroic TR, you can still play the character you want.

12 Fighter/8 Monk, 12 Cleric/8 Monk, 12 Paladin/8 Monk, 12 Druid/8 Monk...for the most part, for me...they all play basically Monk-like with a little twist. For my Monk situation, with Bard and Barbarian I'm kind of screwed, but I can deal with an exception or two. They play ESPECIALLY similar now since you can get the max level PrE ability with only 6 class levels (or 8 for Fighter).

Being stuck out of your ED in Epic levels is a MASSIVE drop in capability compared to that.

Some classes are worse then others. On my arti I find fewer destinies that feels horrible since the main damage type is rune arm and repeater. But without some heavier dps I won't try EEs.

With my Savant I feel like every destiny outside Shiradi and Draconic is a pest. I mean I get barely anything from it. Fatesinger has some charisma I can load but that will never compare to smacking something with a energy burst. And the same applies to the rogue, the Monk and all the way to the divine where I want to add the 10% more SP but now I'm so **** bored of the prospect that I log on less and less.

[Thrudh]

The rewards don't have to be that great, because the sacrifice is relatively small compared to heroic TR. You don't lose destiny XP, merely epic levels. The first few levels will come back fast, and characters will quickly be back into a position to play top end content. The differences between a lvl 28 toon and a lvl 24 toon aren't all that large.

This is a good point...

But I don't think it's a good idea to make us live in off-destinies at all.

We've ALREADY complained about it... so I'm not sure why they are doing it again.

I'll just get a few past lives in destinies that match my character, and not bother with the other ones.

[Teh_Troll]

This is a good point...

But I don't think it's a good idea to make us live in off-destinies at all.

We've ALREADY complained about it... so I'm not sure why they are doing it again.

I'll just get a few past lives in destinies that match my character, and not bother with the other ones.

ATTN: Turbine Devs.

You lost Thrudh.

Think about it.