DDOGamer: The Last Reincarnation Rebellion Post I Will Write (Today)

[geoffhanna]

Some people have a hard time recognizing victory when they see it. Maybe we are all so oppressed by Da Man that we can't really comprehend that victory is even possible?

-> Nonetheless, we are still winning

[oradafu]

Still not a Victory.

The Governor just gave a short Reprieve, but he's still gonna let the switch be pulled on Epic Tokens and TR Hearts.

The other victory with the amount of CoVs needed or dropping isn't really a victory either, since it was inevitable that the numbers would eventually be adjusted.

And no movement on anything else that people were complaining about.

So still not a Victory... We're just in a state of attrition. And announcing victory now just plays into Turbine's hands.

[jonqrandom]

yeah, claiming any kind of victory because we're losing less functionality than we may have without the protests seem irresponsible to me. many problems remain, and we will still be worse off when they stop taking Tokens of the Twelve for True/Heroic Hearts. the reasons have been described over and over in great details so i'll just bullet list some:

• players do not want yet another currency cluttering up their inventories, and BtC is still on the cards. they have not yet said they'll change to BtA.
• players do not want to level any higher than they have to with characters they intend to TR. if the comms only drop from sagas, and remain BtC or the player simply doesn't have a higher level character available at that moment, they'll have to waste time levelling further just so they can get those comms.
• between sagas bugging out, and single-quest closures affecting multiple sagas, players may be prevented from acquiring comms at all at certain points.
• some players just hate certain quests, and some just dislike the FR setting in general, which is where most epic sagas are set. forcing players to play quests they dislike to acquire an item that is a huge part of the game for many is bad.
• getting groups for sagas is reported to be hard, even compared to regular pugging.
• the amount of comms necessary to acquire a Heroic Heart still makes it much harder than it currently is, even ignoring all the other issues. "powergamers" is not a reasonable excuse to penalise the rest of us.

the actual victory conditions, again, in short:

• Heroic Hearts should be available to level 20 characters with similar ease that True Hearts are now.
• comms should be BtA.
• comms should not be tied to sagas.
• comms should not favor the Forgotten Realms.

[Nascoe]

Yes, its very important to keep pushing for a reasonable cost, for keeping the in game currency we acquire easily usable, and transferrable to our other characters and to push this change in a direction that will be ok for most players.

But winning on all fronts is not a good victory. It also means defeat. And that is never good for anyone. Lets move on towards accepting that Turbine had to step down from their original plans, have a crisis meeting and now seems to be communicating on the forums quite intensively (while in between I hope they work towards implementing changes) reading what players want, what they propose, how they see what is reasonable and what is not.

Its not ideal, but its something to savour. Heck, we even got them to apologize for not having managed the matter before.

[silinteresting]

Some people have a hard time recognizing victory when they see it. Maybe we are all so oppressed by Da Man that we can't really comprehend that victory is even possible?

-> Nonetheless, we are still winning

a very well written piece.

i agree with you this is a victory.

sadly people have there own agendas now so yes you are right the down votes will come.

your friend sil

[Dandonk]

While I'm glad they're actually interacting with us, and putting some thoughts out there for us to consider, I still do not consider it a "victory" by any means.

The concerns I've posted before are:

"To make the Saga version work they'd have to:

1) Make the amount dropped be reasonable compared to the runs now needed for TR.
2) Make the comms BTA, not BTC.
3) Make several more Sagas so that more epic quests are included in the system.
4) Make at least some shorter Sagas so that people have a sense of progress towards getting what they want.
5) Make a UI that supports tracking Sagas.
6) Make sure Sagas never bug out again (like they've done several times now).
7) Add something to House C Challenge pack to make it worthwhile again.

Or, they could just make tokens drop everywhere. Which has the added benefit of allowing people to run whatever they feel like, not just Sagas.

I think the last is much easier, and less prone to bugging out than doing Sagas."

Since then, I've gotten feedback that leads me to add three more:
8) Make Sagas independent of each other, to make tracking easier.
9) Add something to old epic quests so they do not lose value.
10) Make the comms free on Saga completion, like the tokens are now.

Some people do not like the Saga version (personally, I don't either), but the above is a minimum to make the Saga version work at all.

So, let's see:

1) We have to run around 3-4 times as many quests to get a TR heart. Not a win.
2) Bound status is being considered, no word yet on final decision. Looking promising, but not a win yet.
3) We're getting one more Saga, I think? Nowhere near a win.
4) No word on this. No win yet.
5) No word on this. No win yet.
6) No word on this. Currently, several sagas cannot be completed due to quest bugs. No win yet.
7) No word on this. No win yet.
8) No word on this. No win yet.
9) No word on this. No win yet.
10) No word on this. No win yet.

So, no, I do not consider the lowering of the proposed grind to a place around four times the current (live) grind a win at all. Yes, I'm aware that tokens are staying in - for now.

The Saga system is nowhere near ready for being tied to this important part of the game. It's been buggy for most of its lifetime, and the key mechanics (as opposed to numbers) concerns are not being addressed.

This is not a win. Yet. They're talking, and that's great - but we are nowhere near there yet. With all the qualifiers and lack of information on key issues, I'm not declaring this a win.

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

[Silken-Akira]

Geoff or Ausdoerrt can you please tell me why certain points in Ausdoerrt's listed are viewed as accomplished.
I do read dev's new post and for my best efforts I do not get the same info out of it to what is accomplished as some do. (maybe I am indeed wrong in this)

As for hating the dev's of Turbine. I and I think many others do not hate or blame them. Like in most companies the people who actually produce the services/products care about their work and the quality of it.
but like in most companies the higher management is driven by figures and this is even more true in companies that fall under an umbrella of some bigger company.
for me personally I even respect them more for in working in a situation they are now...

But typically when complaining against something it will feel like the people who produce are the ones being attacked, it is what it is for all of us.

Lastly I do think it is needed that some of us try to extract the positive notes of this out of it all. Because It is normal from the complaining side to stay skeptical.

[Havok.cry]

Just curious, but is geoff a paid turbine employee? because he sounds like one. He sounds like he has an agenda of trying to break up the protest from the players side because the devs failed to with their double speak posts. He sounds just a biased as the RL media that does stories on and how the politicians tell them. I think I will not pay any more attention to what he says because he obviously has little to no interest in facts.

[Grosbeak07]

I'm just tired of the hostage taking at this point.

Turbine is inept at the moment, but the player response has been pretty awful too. I don't back either side.

Basically this is a perfect combination of events to create lasting, long term damage to the game. And both sides will blame the other.

I thought games were supposed to be fun? Yet the company and community are doing their best to kill the fun for me.

[Flavilandile]

Snip Saga Ties stuff.

It shouldn't be tied to any saga at all.
To alleviate the problem of Faerun Favor against Eberron it should drop in all end quest chest of an Epic Quest.

[Qhualor]

Right now we are in the stage of compromise talks. We have Turbines attention, but there are still some things that we aren't able to agree on. Just like any real life protest, until things are settled or we are given a final proposal, we continue to hold our ground.

2 major things that we have been unable to agree on.

1. Commendations. Reading through Producer Glins thread, you will see many reasons why we want them BTA. The biggest reasons are because we normally don't run epics on our TRs when we just want the past life. We want the ability to TR at 20, not 22/23, under the current proposal. Some of us won't have the gear or skill on a particular class to run epics, forcing us to run on EN/EH difficulties.

2. Sagas. We understand why Turbine is pushing for us to run sagas, but they are making it a requirement in order to get hearts of wood to reincarnate. We understand they are doing it to get us to buy more content and to slow the progress of character development, but they are doing it as a requirement and forcing us to choose hearts of wood over what was originally said to us bonus rewards. Sagas were supposed to be optional. Tying hearts of wood to them doesn't make sense to some of us.

The players who have and still stand on the bridge want to continue playing DDO, but for some of us who have been around for a long time, the water has boiled over the top. I still stand on the bridge because the 2 things I mentioned are the make or break points if I continue to play or not. There is no end game to play and I won't run my TR character for past lives in epics for heroic hearts of wood. If j didn't care about DDO or care if I continued to play, I wouldn't be on that bridge. Hopefully something can be resolved because I do miss playing the game.

[Dandonk]

It shouldn't be tied to any saga at all.
To alleviate the problem of Faerun Favor against Eberron it should drop in all end quest chest of an Epic Quest.

I agree, but so far everything they've said leads me to conclude that this is not an option. Sadly.

[sebastianosmith]

Just curious, but is geoff a paid turbine employee? because he sounds like one. He sounds like he has an agenda of trying to break up the protest from the players side because the devs failed to with their double speak posts. He sounds just a biased as the RL media that does stories on and how the politicians tell them. I think I will not pay any more attention to what he says because he obviously has little to no interest in facts.

This is simply not fair. The man is expressing an opinion contrary to yours so he must be in league with Turbine to quell the uproar? I don't personally know Geoff, but I've been reading his posts and blog for many years. Nothing he's ever written has given any indication that he's anything other than honest, open and ethical. While I may not agree with his every statement, I would never question his integrity.

[Flavilandile]

I agree, but so far everything they've said leads me to conclude that this is not an option. Sadly.

Well it's not an option we want... If they have a working braincell they will retract it..... Unless they really want to kill the game.

[Silken-Akira]

This is simply not fair. The man is expressing an opinion contrary to yours so he must be in league with Turbine to quell the uproar? I don't personally know Geoff, but I've been reading his posts and blog for many years. Nothing he's ever written has given any indication that he's anything other than honest, open and ethical. While I may not agree with his every statement, I would never question his integrity.

Agree. I have read a lot of his blogs and he has had his anti comments to Turbine decisions too. Just because he his different opinion on some things and has a more nicer way than most of have to express things he doesn't like doesn't make him a paid Turbine spy in a long way.

[jonqrandom]

getting decent customer support from turbine is, indeed, a victory. do i actually have to point out what's wrong with that statement?

as far as the other issues go, tbh, we're not "winning". we are finally in a discussion, which is a very good thing indeed, and i will be cautiously positive about this for as long as it continues. the fact that this is what it has taken to enter into a dialogue, however, is not exactly promising, and i'm not about to sing anyone's praises just for doing their jobs. customer service is a function of any profit-making organisation, and we (at least those of us who pay) are customers. we may not be always right, but when the only significant number of us willing to voice our opinions on this matter are all singing a very similar song, it's probably time to listen.

what i certainly don't recall, from before this debacle, is manifold and popular threads claiming that TRing was way too easy and should be made not just harder but more annoying, inventory-consuming and subject to more bugs too. nobody asked for this, and now it's nearly upon us, it's pretty clear almost no-one actually *wants* this. at some point, turbine has to consider that it exists to service a paying playerbase, and whatever it thought was a good idea, if that playerbase turns around and says "no, this is a horrifically, stupidly bad idea", they should abandon or drastically change it, or lose paying customers and therefore revenue.

speaking of turbine's profits, it's been pointed out repeatedly that people who TR faster buy more stuff: more XP pots, more Otto's boxes, etc. slowing down TRing directly slows part of turbine's revenue stream, very likely more than they will recoup from the purchases of store-bough heroic hearts. the very "problem" that they are "solving" with these changes is a source of income for them.

TRing is being made worse by these changes. i haven't seen a single even half-decent argument to the contrary, and i've seen plenty of arguments that stand up to support that case. to be brutally honest, i never understand people who, when they have something taken away from them, defend whatever it was that did that to them, even when other people are trying to get it back for everyone.

by all means, commend turbine for their current acts of customer service. but don't confuse them being polite about making TRing worse, with them accepting that they are trying to do something bad and self-defeating, and being prepared to stop it.

[Satyriasys]

Some people have a hard time recognizing victory when they see it. Maybe we are all so oppressed by Da Man that we can't really comprehend that victory is even possible?

-> Nonetheless, we are still winning

How much does Turbine pay you?

[jonqrandom]

Just curious, but is geoff a paid turbine employee? because he sounds like one. He sounds like he has an agenda of trying to break up the protest from the players side because the devs failed to with their double speak posts. He sounds just a biased as the RL media that does stories on and how the politicians tell them. I think I will not pay any more attention to what he says because he obviously has little to no interest in facts.

while i largely disagree with geoff here, i don't think this is fair. attacking people for having a different opinion to me/us isn't where i want to go with this.

[jonqrandom]

How much does Turbine pay you?

-.-
we're supposed to be better than this. please quit with the ad hominen.

[Drwaz99]

I still don't agree. It's also very apparent that a vast majority of people posting on the forums don't either.

Here are the major sticking points for me:

Implied concessions are just that implied. The fact that nothing was provided for future possibilities for acquiring COV's outside sagas leads one to believe this was more of an attempt to quell the masses by allowing them to use their own imagination and interpretation. It also could suggest that they haven't even discussed future possibilities. If that's the case it invalidates anything you could have gleaned from that implication. Examples, even if they don't come to fruition, show that they has been at least some thought given. None of this has happened.

The original numbers presented on Lamannia in regards to COV's saga rewards and the wood costs were so absurd there's only one possible explanations that logically makes sense to me:

They had every intention to lower them if there was a large enough push back. It's similar to the phenomenon of arsonists lighting buildings on fire to allow them to later become hero's when they rescue people from the fire they set. (Note, I'm am only comparing the mentality, not the severity of the actions.)

You don't arbitrarily set numbers so high, ask people to preview it, add no qualifiers (they are "placeholders") and then come back and say we weren't going to ship it that way. If there was no push-back it would have shipped "as is".

There has been no movement other than recognition in terms of the binding state of COV's. We don't know how long tokens might be around - that's important if you want to claim "victory". If it's one patch or 2 weeks, that's really nothing gained.

Lastly I would like to state in case someone from Turbine reads this: DDOGamer doesn't not in any shape, form or function represent my feelings on the matter. In fact, it goes completely against every feeling I have in regards to this matter.