There was a thread about a shuriken build

[LupusVai02]

Thread lost when forums moved it seems.

Just a couple of questions I had, that maybe someone knows.

Feat Shuriken expertise: does it stack (or should it stack) with the Ninja training AP :While you are centered, you can use your Dexterity modifier for damage with piercing and slashing weapons. You also gain a chance based on your Dexterity score to throw an extra shuriken per attack.

Also on the same Ninja training: Do we think that should also mean you get dex based damage to throwing weapons while centered (shurikens) or do we think it only means melee weapons. (one can never tell with turbine) We already know that the halfling throwing enhancement that is supposed to make throwers use dex for damage does not work.

note: not my normal account but I cant log in to the forums with my normal forum account.

[LupusVai02]

Just did a bit of testing.
(please note that with only a limited test number obviously not 100% reliable results)
Build includes quick draw, shuriken expertise and has a bab of 20. (14 ranger 6 monk(centered))

As I understand shuriken expertise from old threads it is supposed to add a % chance for an extra shot based on acual dex score. (so 20 dex = 20% chance)

With 21 dex and the NS enhancement: 100 throws resulted in 150 shurikens actually used/thrown
With 30 dex and the NS enhancement: 100 throws resulted in 155 shurikens actually used/thrown
With 30 dex and NO NS enhancement: 100 throws resulted in 129 shurikens actuallt used/thrown

Conclusions based on limited testing: NS enhancement makes a difference. Dex value makes little difference at all.

I also had a quick play around with shiradi whirling wrists. (supposed to add 60% to throw speed....)

Both test with 30 dex in ultimate air stance (supposed to enhance thrown attack speed..)
Without Shiradi whirling wrists 200 shots took 115 seconds
With Shiradi whirling wrists 200 shots took 105 seconds

Conclusions based on limited testing Shiradi whirling wrists 60% bonus to attack speed with thrown weapons is no where near what it says. I suppose as we do not know what sort of enhancement to thrown speed that either air stance, quick draw and whirling wrists actually are that they may all be the same type of enhancement and therefore not stacking.

[IronClan]

Just did a bit of testing.
(please note that with only a limited test number obviously not 100% reliable results)
Build includes quick draw, shuriken expertise and has a bab of 20. (14 ranger 6 monk(centered))

As I understand shuriken expertise from old threads it is supposed to add a % chance for an extra shot based on acual dex score. (so 20 dex = 20% chance)

With 21 dex and the NS enhancement: 100 throws resulted in 150 shurikens actually used/thrown
With 30 dex and the NS enhancement: 100 throws resulted in 155 shurikens actually used/thrown
With 30 dex and NO NS enhancement: 100 throws resulted in 129 shurikens actuallt used/thrown

Conclusions based on limited testing: NS enhancement makes a difference. Dex value makes little difference at all.

I also had a quick play around with shiradi whirling wrists. (supposed to add 60% to throw speed....)

Both test with 30 dex in ultimate air stance (supposed to enhance thrown attack speed..)
Without Shiradi whirling wrists 200 shots took 115 seconds
With Shiradi whirling wrists 200 shots took 105 seconds

Conclusions based on limited testing Shiradi whirling wrists 60% bonus to attack speed with thrown weapons is no where near what it says. I suppose as we do not know what sort of enhancement to thrown speed that either air stance, quick draw and whirling wrists actually are that they may all be the same type of enhancement and therefore not stacking.

Thread Necro (deal with it)

Interesting results, wish they've fix all the Broken Shuriken Borkedness.

Attack speed boosts to ranged combat is and has been broken since the game launched. This is due to the Dev's insisting that reload time is completely separate from attack time. Imagine if haste only made a melee's forward swing faster and the back swing stayed the same. That's how ranged alacrity works.

That said you can't test Whirling wrists with two things giving you a 30% chance to throw more Shurikens AND wind stance. Turn stance off at least. I know you mention the testing not being highly accurate so whatever.

If you're interested in getting a better idea of the impact, you should try swaping out the feat and resetting enhancements to get rid of ninja training II. The doubled extra throw chance introduces a massive variable. you'd need to test something around 1000+ throws to get a alacrity number that is reasonably accurate with two 30% chances to throw extra shots. You have a fair chance to throw three stars, I wont do the math but that whirling wrists test is nearly meaningless.

From my own and others testing of ranged alacrrity I would expect to get a bit less than half the stated alacrity bonus... For example the quiver gives about 4% increase, Pinion seems to give about 9% all due to the reload animation being uneffected and the longer part of the attack cycle. Something like a real 26-28% increase in shots fired over a long sample is what I would expect. Without wind stance and no Dex based doubles you should get a clearer result. I may test this myself.

As for the stacking Ninja training and Shuriken expertise your numbers look totally within range though they are a very limited sample size. The 21 Dex X2 seems like a 42% chance to throw an extra Shuriken but it's actually two 21% chances. 150 reflects that, you probably threw three on more than one occasion and/or you got lucky over 100 throws and had a long string of hitting your 21% chance(s)

The next two tests are likewise very expected results in fact I would expect more variation but they are totally within range. The Dex is VERY MUCH making a difference as with NS training off you got only 129 (100 + 30% more would be 130... On the other hand the test before it you got 155... 100 + 30% and then another 30%... if you rolled perfectly 30% for both chances to double throw you would have 160. But what happened was you had some strings (probabilistic clustering) and some runs of no doubles (probabilistic rarefaction) and you also had some TRIPLES, the delta over a tiny sample like 100 shots could vary a lot from one test to the next.