Aren't artificers a bit over-powered?

[LOOON375]

While leveling 1-20 they are very powerful. Once you hit 20+, not so much.

They are a very versatile class that is very useful in all content up to and including epic elite.

[FranOhmsford]

Most of your post made sense, the rest was tl;dr but this I found odd. Archmagi is for ANY class with a blue bar. And most players that TR casters enough DO actually have a vibrant purple.

I'm talking about First Lives!

The Majority of people in DDO are STILL First Lifers!
{Forum goers are a minority!}

Also - I have Vib purps {a couple} and no they're NOT Unsupressed yet! {and I do Have Dreaming Dark - I just don't like Mario Quests so don't run it much}.

So far I have 5 TRs {all on second lives}:
Paladin, Paladin/Ftr, Druid, Sorc and Druid/Rogue
None of them have NEEDED an Ioun Stone to be able to Solo Elite Streak Low Levels!


And I'm known on these forums as somewhat of a Gimp Player!


The Op simply noted that Artificers he/she's run with have seemed OP - He/She never said anything about TRs!

To a Newbie Artis could very easily be seen as OP - I've been running an Arti with a guy off Teamspeak who's so far tried Wizard and Barb {Both Dwarf}. He much prefers the Barb!
Running through Korthos and the Harbour I've specifically had to say a number of times that Artis do seem Overpowered at Low Levels and that eventually other classes catch up!
AND I did create said Arti at Lvl 1! {With no Twinking! - OK I had a Utility Vest in my Shared Bank}.

[Loriac]

...And I'm known on these forums as somewhat of a Gimp Player!

The Op simply noted that Artificers he/she's run with have seemed OP - He/She never said anything about TRs!

To a Newbie Artis could very easily be seen as OP - I've been running an Arti with a guy off Teamspeak who's so far tried Wizard and Barb {Both Dwarf}. He much prefers the Barb!
Running through Korthos and the Harbour I've specifically had to say a number of times that Artis do seem Overpowered at Low Levels and that eventually other classes catch up!
AND I did create said Arti at Lvl 1! {With no Twinking! - OK I had a Utility Vest in my Shared Bank}.

To be blunt, I suspect I could build any class, and gear it up so that no matter what class you were playing, my build would seem overpowered to you. I expect a lot of people on these forums could do the same, as once you have enough experience and gear, virtually all builds are overpowered vs. heroic content.

What the OP (and posters like you) are doing, is you're taking your experience and generalising it as 'xyz class is overpowered' when the reality is that whilst some classes are inherently easier not to mess up (artificer being a shining example of such), if you know what you're doing the game is extremely easy during heroic levels.

The worst part of this is the calls for nerfing technically underpowered classes on the basis of your limited experience. Pure ranged/casting artificers do fall into this category at endgame; its far easier to make good melee, ranged, or caster types (with various builds/primary classes) that contribue more to EE than to do the same with an artificer.

I cannot take seriously someone who considers repeaters 'grossly overpowered' based on his or her experiences to level 12-15, and who simply hasn't seen the fall off in damage at epic levels.

Whilst you, and perhaps many, DDO players spend a lot of their time at low levels (i.e. below level 18), for most regular players levels 1-18 constitute a tiny fraction of the character's full lifecycle, and to balance around those levels is ludicrous.

[FranOhmsford]

Whilst you, and perhaps many, DDO players spend a lot of their time at low levels (i.e. below level 18), for most regular players levels 1-18 constitute a tiny fraction of the character's full lifecycle, and to balance around those levels is ludicrous.

There's a number of players on these forums who state regularly that they've Never bothered much with End-Game!

Permadeathers
Serial TRs
Altoholics like Myself!

And yes these forums {as stated by the Devs are a minority} but they do constitute a Sampling of the Player Base!


Also:
Lvl 21-25 has been around for 1 year now {Thereabouts}!
In that time I've levelled up 4 Characters into the Epic Levels {No a Pure Artificer is Not one of them!}.

I have 2 Artificers at lvl 16 - One on Thelanis who I don't really play anymore simply because he's on a Server that's not one of my mains!
The Other on Cannith who has the XP to Level to 17 but is self capping!

Up to this point I have had absolutely no issues whatsoever playing either of those Characters!

Whereas I have had serious issues Levelling up Various Wizards, Sorcs and FavSouls over the past 3 Years - You know: The Classes Generally Considered OP at High Levels!


I didn't enjoy Levelling up my Bard either BUT at Lvl 19-20 He was an absolute Beast! {He's now on his Sorc Life on his way to Completionist when he'll go back to Bard!}.

My HotD Paladin was my first Character to Hit Level 20 - At no point on that journey did I even contemplate thinking he was OP or Easy to Play!
On the Contrary - He was seriously hard to play and severely under-geared when I hit Cap!

I finally Capped My First Ever DDO Character {Larystessian} just this week gone and instantly TRd him!
From Lvl 12-20 I disliked playing him intensely - Wizard/Rogue!


And yet again - I have absolutely no intention of asking the Devs to Nerf Arti - On the Contrary I'd like for other classes to be Buffed:
Paladin
Ranger
Cleric
Barbarian
Druid
For a Start!

And I have a Battle Cleric 17/3 Ftr - Lvl 24 atm
I have a Barb/Fighter/Ranger 12/6/2 - Lvl 22 atm
I've already mentioned the Paladin I capped out and TRd - He's currently on his Second HotD Life {Lvl 14}.
And I have a Lvl 18 Tempest/Ftr 15/3.
My highest Lvl Druid is 14 atm.


Lastly - It took me 2-3 weeks to level my Battle Cleric from lvl 21-24 {Playing that character for only 2-3 hours a day - and not every day}.
It took me over a year to get that character to Lvl 20!
And I've not missed a single day playing DDO since I was introduced to it {discounting Turbine's Downtime of course}!
For most of the past two years she's been running Shrouds/HoX's/VoD's when I felt like it while I played other characters.

[Loriac]

Lots of words

That really say nothing to address my point that the game shouldn't be balanced around levels 1-18, it should be balanced for endgame play.

But, to pick up on one of your statements:

And yet again - I have absolutely no intention of asking the Devs to Nerf Arti - On the Contrary I'd like for other classes to be Buffed:
Paladin
Ranger
Cleric
Barbarian
Druid
For a Start!

With FotW, LD, and Primal Avatar, not a single one of the melee classes in your list needs to be buffed. Melee druids also fall into this category btw.

In heroic levels, every single one of those classes can be built to be very strong by an experienced player, certainly strong enough to stomp all over heroic elite content. On my current life (now capped WF juggernaut, 16arti/2ranger/2monk), I played the character as pure melee throughout heroic levels. Every single one of the melee classes in your list is stronger at melee than a heroic level juggernaut, and even so I facerolled the content on the juggernaut. Even a paladin's heroic dps would be far better (a well built melee battlecleric would have similar melee dps to my juggernaut during those levels), so the contention that any of the listed classes are weak astounds me.

As for clerics, I have no idea how or why anyone would consider that the class needs to be buffed. Depending on whether you want an offensive caster cleric or a melee battlecleric, you can easily build a powerhouse on a cleric platform.

But your statement confirms the point I was making earlier: if a player can't build a strong character, then they're going to find some classes easier than others, because a lot of the thinking is done for them. Artificer is one of those classes, because the class design strongly suggests that you should max Int, max out trap skills, use a runearm and use a repeater. Meanwhile, (for example) lots of people play rangers badly (choosing either ranged or melee rather than a combination based on tactical needs) and so develop the idea that rangers are weak when in fact they can be built to be very versatile melee/ranged hybrids.

People that don't know how to build strong characters really shouldn't be making recommendations about power balancing, because they don't know what they're talking about. Its that simple.

[FranOhmsford]

With FotW, LD, and Primal Avatar, not a single one of the melee classes in your list needs to be buffed. Melee druids also fall into this category btw.

Yet again I'll ignore the multiple personal attacks!

I'm simply going to reply to the one statement I've quoted...

Epic Destinies SHOULD NOT be all that counts when balancing classes!
Classes should be balanced from lvl 1-25 and if as you seem to believe Artificers are weak at end-game I'd like to point out this thread - http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ight=Artificer - for your perusal at this stage!


I'm currently running my Battle Cleric {currently Lvl 1 Rank 5 Unyielding having filled out Exalted Angel} in a Set Group with two RL Friends - One of whom has a Rogue/Arti 13/7 Epic 5 in Fatesinger, The other who is Pure Stalwart Epic 5 {also currently in Fatesinger}.
We Trio-ed ADQ 2 Epic Normal {Yes I know this has been soloed} tonight! {I picked up a Shard of the Xuum - Maybe one day I'll find the Seal.}.



Back to my point - If one class is Overpowered at lvl 1 or 2 {Monks} then that class should be looked at!
If another class is Overpowered at 25 {Sorcs supposedly} then that should also be looked at!
Artis are NOT Overpowered at lvl 1 or 2 - People don't tack 2 Levels of Artificer onto their Sorcs, FavSouls, Clerics etc. as a matter of course!

I'll freely admit never having played a Sorc past lvl 11 so I have no idea if the forum consensus at this time is correct on the Power Level of said class at end-game!


And lastly to my 15/3/2 Drow Rogue/Arti/Ftr build - At 15/2 Rogue Mech/Ftr she was insanely gimped and still trying to Fight with Dual Short Swords / Rapiers!
She's a lot better now BUT certainly not Solo-Uber!
On her second life I'm going to be following my friend's Rogue 13 / Arti 7 Build all the way! {These two Classes Synergize perfectly} Unless the Devs do something amazing with Tier III Rogue Mech or Tier II & III Battle Engineer!

[Loriac]

Yet again I'll ignore the multiple personal attacks!

My statement that some players don't have experience building strong characters isn't a personal attack. Similarly, stating that being able to fully leverage the strength of the various aspects of your build before you make suggestions on what needs to be rebalanced isn't a personal attack, to my mind its a statement of the obvious.

I'm simply going to reply to the one statement I've quoted...

Epic Destinies SHOULD NOT be all that counts when balancing classes!

Conversely, to ignore what epic destinies bring to the table and focus on the early heroic game is even more myopic. By the way, the reason that the OP thinks artificers are overpowered is because he/she doesn't seem to appreciate that the epic destinies simply don't mesh with a pure ranged/caster arty's skillset in the way that they do with melee toons, 10k monkchers, or dps casters.

Classes should be balanced from lvl 1-25 and if as you seem to believe Artificers are weak at end-game I'd like to point out this thread - http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ight=Artificer - for your perusal at this stage!

Cool, I think thats the first thread I've seen where a pure arty has solo'd EE. This doesn't actually show that artys aren't weak at end game however, for two main reasons:

i. given sufficient time and resources, solo EE completion is about perseverance more than anything else. It helps (a lot) if you have reliable cc, and the build linked to appears to be in shiradi so I expect that its relying on pin and otto's for its cc. Meanwhile, its dps output appears to be low (a couple of comments in the thread point to this fact).

ii. the contribution that a capped arty makes to an EE group is, broadly speaking, summed up as deadly weapons buffs (very good if you have decent melee in the party), mediocre dps, and unreliable cc except specific ED abilities such as pin and otto's.

Other endgame builds will generally contribute better dps or better cc than the arty, which is better for party success than broad versatility with low/mediocre dps.

It can be summed up like this: artys are the jacks of all trades, but EE is about being really good at one or two things.

I'm currently running my Battle Cleric {currently Lvl 1 Rank 5 Unyielding having filled out Exalted Angel} in a Set Group with two RL Friends - One of whom has a Rogue/Arti 13/7 Epic 5 in Fatesinger, The other who is Pure Stalwart Epic 5 {also currently in Fatesinger}.
We Trio-ed ADQ 2 Epic Normal {Yes I know this has been soloed} tonight! {I picked up a Shard of the Xuum - Maybe one day I'll find the Seal.}.

cool story bro. ADQ on EN isn't particularly hard, but gratz on finding your Xuum shard.

Back to my point - If one class is Overpowered at lvl 1 or 2 {Monks} then that class should be looked at!
If another class is Overpowered at 25 {Sorcs supposedly} then that should also be looked at!
Artis are NOT Overpowered at lvl 1 or 2 - People don't tack 2 Levels of Artificer onto their Sorcs, FavSouls, Clerics etc. as a matter of course!

Overly balancing classes so that they're all the same at any given level, just with different special effects, is not what DDO has been, and it shouldn't be the target model for the future. If you want this type of gameplay, I understand that Neverwinter Online may be up your street.

Btw, 1 or 2 levels of arty can be useful on some builds (primarily those that already get evasion from other classes in the mix, and where you want full umd).

I'll freely admit never having played a Sorc past lvl 11 so I have no idea if the forum consensus at this time is correct on the Power Level of said class at end-game!

Sorcs during heroic levels are absolute beasts. Sorcs during epic levels even more so. Up to EH difficulty, a Draconic Incarnation sorc will wipe the floor with quests, whilst on EE shiradi sorcs tend to be better (typically sorc 18/pal 2 for good EE saves).

And lastly to my 15/3/2 Drow Rogue/Arti/Ftr build - At 15/2 Rogue Mech/Ftr she was insanely gimped and still trying to Fight with Dual Short Swords / Rapiers!
She's a lot better now BUT certainly not Solo-Uber!
On her second life I'm going to be following my friend's Rogue 13 / Arti 7 Build all the way! {These two Classes Synergize perfectly} Unless the Devs do something amazing with Tier III Rogue Mech or Tier II & III Battle Engineer!

I don't want to get into a detailed critique of the builds you listed here, but the first one seems a bit odd to me - I'd have thought 13rogue/6arty/1fighter is a much better class split for a mechanic, and would be far less 'gimped'.

But imo, the reason the build felt gimped to you is that you were building around repeaters (inferred from the mechanic PRE) which as I've said before seem powerful at low levels but really drop off at levels 18+.

There are some very nice 13rogue/x/y builds out there, but they are highly dependent on gear because typically 13 rogue means you're going mechanic or acrobat, both of which use quite inferior weapons. However, if you have some nice quarterstaves lying around, you can make some absolutely deadly stick builds on top of that platform.

[Strider1963]

Just rolled an arty, up to level 5 now, and at these levels she's definately overpowered. Its a helf arty so the only way to heal myself atm is with pots, and I havent used a pot yet , and its just me and my doggie, no hireling. I simply use ablative armor in case something gets close enough to actually hit me.. At level 20, we'll see. I plan on upgrading the doggie to the max I can... he's great aggro... I know I'm a little "different" as I took wizzy as my dilletente feat. Will be able to use scrolls and wands at much lower levels instead of waiting for umd to fully kick in.
Since I mainly solo a lot, I figured it was a better choice than rogue dilletente. After the first volley, the sneak attack damage would be gone anyways.

[Sonos]

The Op simply noted that Artificers he/she's run with have seemed OP - He/She never said anything about TRs!

Calm down, if you read my post I agreed with most of it and was just addressing the something that you said about the ioun stone, something the OP did not mention either. take a deep breath... let it out.

[Sonos]

Just rolled an arty, up to level 5 now, and at these levels she's definately overpowered. Its a helf arty so the only way to heal myself atm is with pots, and I havent used a pot yet , and its just me and my doggie, no hireling. I simply use ablative armor in case something gets close enough to actually hit me.. At level 20, we'll see. I plan on upgrading the doggie to the max I can... he's great aggro... I know I'm a little "different" as I took wizzy as my dilletente feat. Will be able to use scrolls and wands at much lower levels instead of waiting for umd to fully kick in.
Since I mainly solo a lot, I figured it was a better choice than rogue dilletente. After the first volley, the sneak attack damage would be gone anyways.

This thread is full of the word overpowered. You are talking about level 5. It is powerful, I don't think it's overpowered. Look at the quests you are doing. Are they really that hard? You are ranging.

[Aurora72]

Epic Destinies SHOULD NOT be all that counts when balancing classes!
Classes should be balanced from lvl 1-25 and if as you seem to believe Artificers are weak at end-game I'd like to point out this thread - http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ight=Artificer - for your perusal at this stage!

You shouldn't really take my ability to solo epic elite on some random fleshy artificer (mind you a random fleshy artificer whose destinies are almost completely finished and with all kinds of gear!) as evidence that artificers are overpowered, unless you're also willing to take the threads about fighters and paladins and ranged bards doing the same as evidence to their being overpowered. Now, pause and think about that for a moment...paladins are overpowered? Sure, they can do competetive damage with the right destiny, but I doubt anyone can argue that with a straight face.

Cool, I think thats the first thread I've seen where a pure arty has solo'd EE. This doesn't actually show that artys aren't weak at end game however, for two main reasons:

i. given sufficient time and resources, solo EE completion is about perseverance more than anything else. It helps (a lot) if you have reliable cc, and the build linked to appears to be in shiradi so I expect that its relying on pin and otto's for its cc. Meanwhile, its dps output appears to be low (a couple of comments in the thread point to this fact).

Now now, that's not true at all! It doesn't just take sufficient time and resources, it also takes liberal application of boring, occasionally cheesy kiting tactics!

And to be fair, my artificer may not have Unbridled Fury or Master's Blitz, but her DPS isn't all that awful (for an artificer), the long completion times are mostly due to being overly careful (a reentry is a failure, so a death not due to flesh to stone or something else I can predict and recover from means I wasted my time) and inability to stand still during boss fights against a melee boss (the bebelith in Battle for Eveningstar, the two bosses in Cabal, that sort of thing) for fear of being eaten.

ii. the contribution that a capped arty makes to an EE group is, broadly speaking, summed up as deadly weapons buffs (very good if you have decent melee in the party), mediocre dps, and unreliable cc except specific ED abilities such as pin and otto's.

Other endgame builds will generally contribute better dps or better cc than the arty, which is better for party success than broad versatility with low/mediocre dps.

It can be summed up like this: artys are the jacks of all trades, but EE is about being really good at one or two things.

Basically this. My artificer (again, all kinds of gear and destinies and time investment) may well seem overpowered running epic hard with a group of fresh 20-somethings in unleveled or simply bad destinies as she leads kill count while taking no damage, but I have no delusions of consistently being able to manage even half the DPS of the fury monkcher or Shiradi arcane next to me in the average epic elite quest.

As for crowd control, that's more a function of destiny now...pin, whistler and nerve venom are great, but they remain great on a caster or other ranged build which chooses to use them. An artificer's SP-based crowd control will be laughed off by 19 out of 20 epic elite mobs (everything rolls a 1 eventually) in the newer content.

[BlackSteel]

I find it funny that the comparison is agaisnt specifically Manyshot+Fury, a melee in full blitz, or a 5 minute super powered arcane.

Sure my arti cant dump enough damage in 2os to be comparable to a manyshot+fury. But if the mobs has enough HP I've stolen back aggro on numerous occasions; and I'd actually prefer not to have it. w/o aggro I get to use the stand your ground talent & blast my rune arm with impunity.

a maintained master blitz is probably the nastiest thing I've seen. But I can also count on one hand the number of times I've seen it actually kept up and performed well. Watching that damage boost being sustained is just too nastey. but even then if you make it a point to focus on mobs that arent being face smashed by the blitz, its not that hard to hang in there, as with the benefit of being ranged you can kill even EE mobs from a distance before melee can close if you burn the right cooldowns.

a shiradi casters are impressive but they seem to move along at the same pace as what an arti is capable of. The only exception is the super buff. Arti's dont get nearly the same benefit from the rainbow effects going 1oo% on spells. I find my DPS actually dropping with that buff as I get curious what effects I can spam and begin spamming rays instead of shooting.

any build that can capitilize on blitz or manyshot+fury is going to appear vastly overpowered and essentially the easy FOTM I win button. And I say this wishing I had more time to TR one of my spare char's into a juggernaught. But I barely have time to play around with one toon.

[Loriac]

I find it funny that the comparison is agaisnt specifically Manyshot+Fury, a melee in full blitz, or a 5 minute super powered arcane.

This is extremely selective reading on your part. Properly built melee builds in FotW or LD, and caster builds in Shiradi, are far more powerful than a pure arty in any destiny. Having unbridled fury or master's blitz up is great of course (though blitz is extremely difficult to use to full effect in party settings as your post alludes to), but even when its not up those builds are very strong.

Sure my arti cant dump enough damage in 2os to be comparable to a manyshot+fury. But if the mobs has enough HP I've stolen back aggro on numerous occasions; and I'd actually prefer not to have it. w/o aggro I get to use the stand your ground talent & blast my rune arm with impunity.

Your arty can't dump enough damage in 20s to be comparable to a maxed FotW or LD just using basic ED features (overwhelming force, sense weakness, lay waste, momentum swing etc). I know this for a fact having run a capped caster/ranged arty in shadowdancer and shiradi (and FotW) and then compared the damage output to my juggernaut in FotW or LD.

If you're stealing aggro back from melee, I have to question how well built they are tbh.

To give an example that really opened my eyes - I was playing through the High Road chain on EH on my juggernaut in a 2 man group (funnily enough, the other player in the group was a fleshie arty). Whereas on my old pure arty some encounters had felt marginally rough, the juggernaut mowed through them (I used unbridled fury sparingly, as there was simply no need for it). It felt like I was playing epic casual. The reason for this was that melee builds in the right EDs can really lay down a lot of damage quickly, which the pure arty can't match. In FotW, the key is overwhelming force - if this one ability applied to ranged adrenaline activations, I would retract all my comments about artys being mediocre dps (at least when in FotW).

Whilst kill counts are notoriously unreliable (pure artys tend to show much higher counts than their damage warrants, just as monks do, due to speed of attacks / ability to do big spikes of damage at will from the runearm), my juggernaut had 5 out of every 6 kills across the chains vs. my teammate's pure arty.

a maintained master blitz is probably the nastiest thing I've seen. But I can also count on one hand the number of times I've seen it actually kept up and performed well. Watching that damage boost being sustained is just too nastey. but even then if you make it a point to focus on mobs that arent being face smashed by the blitz, its not that hard to hang in there, as with the benefit of being ranged you can kill even EE mobs from a distance before melee can close if you burn the right cooldowns.

Agreed, but if you're playing as a team the best thing to do is to facilitate the blitz. A lot of players (sorcs / wizards in particular) don't like doing this however, and will blow their spellpoints to kill mobs and thus stop the blitz, and will then run out of sp later on when its needed. I've seen groups do this, and its extremely frustrating from the point of view of the melee with the blitz, but its human nature I guess.

a shiradi casters are impressive but they seem to move along at the same pace as what an arti is capable of. The only exception is the super buff. Arti's dont get nearly the same benefit from the rainbow effects going 1oo% on spells. I find my DPS actually dropping with that buff as I get curious what effects I can spam and begin spamming rays instead of shooting.

The 'super buff' as you put it is the *only* reason the sorcs and wizards are in shiradi in the first place. The fact that artys don't get spells like magic missile that can be leveraged in shiradi is why the destiny is so weak for an arty compared to a sorc or wiz.

any build that can capitilize on blitz or manyshot+fury is going to appear vastly overpowered and essentially the easy FOTM I win button. And I say this wishing I had more time to TR one of my spare char's into a juggernaught. But I barely have time to play around with one toon.

Blitz is extremely difficult to use, particularly with egotistical players. Manyshot + fury is very nice, but is typically used on boss fights. When you say 'vastly overpowered' however, I'm really not sure what benchmark you're using. Perhaps you mean its 'vastly overpowered' compared to a pure artificer, but thats where this ridiculous thread started, with an OP who doesn't seem to have any experience of the power of other classes / builds.

And btw, on anything short of EE, a well built sorc or wiz will completely outdamage and outkill any melee. In EE, blitz and furyshort essentially make melee have comparable damage abilities to arcanes. My view is that they're not overpowered vs. other good builds.

[BlackSteel]

And btw, on anything short of EE, a well built sorc or wiz will completely outdamage and outkill any melee. In EE, blitz and furyshort essentially make melee have comparable damage abilities to arcanes. My view is that they're not overpowered vs. other good builds.

my benchmark is that in EE, outside of those 3 scenarios all involving epic moments btw, I've found my artie to compete at the same lvl or even better.


funny that you would say the super buff is the only reason for arcanes to take the destiny. relying on a one time use buff that you may or may not actually get is kinda silly. nice when you get it, but not exactly reliable.

[Loriac]

my benchmark is that in EE, outside of those 3 scenarios all involving epic moments btw, I've found my artie to compete at the same lvl or even better.


funny that you would say the super buff is the only reason for arcanes to take the destiny. relying on a one time use buff that you may or may not actually get is kinda silly. nice when you get it, but not exactly reliable.

Ah my mistake, I misread what you'd written. I thought you were talking about the buff to spell effects from prism stance, hence my comments. Only casters who can throw around multi-damage spells (like magic missile, chain missile etc) really benefit from shiradi casting, sadly artys don't have cheap enough spells to do so.

I agree that tea with the queen is nice but not the reason for taking SC.

I'm still not convinced that you're not running with gimped melee tbh, good artificers are doing maybe 250dps consistently with repeaters, and the same again with runearms. Well built melee was able to do this aggregate damage before EDs, so if you're able to keep up with those you group with, it suggests they're not particularly well optimised.

Also, the comment about needing to be in epic moment is false. Adrenaline recharges quickly, and allows you to keep dangerous mobs stunned til dead. Shiradi double rainbow effects proc on every single spell thrown by a sorc or wiz, as do effects like nerve venom. LD is the closest you'll get to your statement being correct, but even there lay waste and momentum swing + cleaves is solid damage, along with boosts to tactical feats.

[Strider1963]

This thread is full of the word overpowered. You are talking about level 5. It is powerful, I don't think it's overpowered. Look at the quests you are doing. Are they really that hard? You are ranging.

I disagree. I've leveled barbs, fighters, monks, rangers, and AA's, and their dps doesnt even come close to an Arty at low levels... levels 1-5 are of course easy, but with and Arty, they're a joke. I havent even used a rune arm yet, except for epuipping it for the extra damage to bolts. The only time I even thought about dropping a healing pot is when I jumped off a ladder a little sooner than I should have and took damage. And again, I would think that as the levels go up, the op arty will be much less so....

[Loriac]

I disagree. I've leveled barbs, fighters, monks, rangers, and AA's, and their dps doesnt even come close to an Arty at low levels... levels 1-5 are of course easy, but with and Arty, they're a joke. I havent even used a rune arm yet, except for epuipping it for the extra damage to bolts. The only time I even thought about dropping a healing pot is when I jumped off a ladder a little sooner than I should have and took damage. And again, I would think that as the levels go up, the op arty will be much less so....

Any str-focused melee cleaving/great cleaving with carnifex is putting out a lot of damage at low levels, easily enough to mow down groups of trash without any issue. An arty can hit similar group damage at these levels only through maximised blast rod (which requires a level 6 arty), which very few artys seem to do. A repeater volley will 1-shot a trash mob, but it takes at least 1.5seconds per volley (when I tested fire rates on my level 20 pure arty, I was seeing 120 bolts per minute when twitch firing i.e. 40 volleys per minute). It surprises me that you believe that arty dps is that much higher at these levels.

Carnifex is doing 120-150 damage on crits to groups of mobs at those levels, and even the normal hits are 40-50 (assuming here decent strength, and improved power attack via enhancements).

[Wulverine]

I'm still not convinced that you're not running with gimped melee tbh, good artificers are doing maybe 250dps consistently with repeaters, and the same again with runearms. Well built melee was able to do this aggregate damage before EDs, so if you're able to keep up with those you group with, it suggests they're not particularly well optimised.
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I'm beginning to really doubt you ever played a well built, well geared max destiny Arti, Loriac And then I can understand your point of view.
But "maybe 250dps with repeater"? It is now very clear you never ran a proper Arti with at least Needle.

Artificers power is incredible while leveling up to 18. Then it begins to taper off. And this is what most people know and remember. But then they gain a huge boost again when geared up and destiny'd up. And this is what, by far, the most people have not experienced.

Again, like I said earlier, I'm not saying they're ubah dps, when you compare to furyshot and blitz. But your above statement reinforces my point about most people (even knowledgeable forumfolk like yourself) not knowing what an artificer is capable of.

[Sonos]

I disagree. I've leveled barbs, fighters, monks, rangers, and AA's, and their dps doesnt even come close to an Arty at low levels... levels 1-5 are of course easy, but with and Arty, they're a joke. I havent even used a rune arm yet, except for epuipping it for the extra damage to bolts. The only time I even thought about dropping a healing pot is when I jumped off a ladder a little sooner than I should have and took damage. And again, I would think that as the levels go up, the op arty will be much less so....

When you put it that way, I agree with you, it is a giggle fest soloing elite content on an arti at low level. And if that is where your heart is in the game, you can call it over powered.

I guess the main idea that surfaces is that a Ranged Arti in EE is just ok. Great for buffs and it does consistent dmg and is pretty survivable but rarely a ZOMG! moment.

I don't like the anecdotes of EH quests because really, it's like playing quests on hard heroic for the most part and you don't have to really be well built for them. Decent is enough.

[Singular]

I'm beginning to really doubt you ever played a well built, well geared max destiny Arti, Loriac And then I can understand your point of view.
But "maybe 250dps with repeater"? It is now very clear you never ran a proper Arti with at least Needle.

Artificers power is incredible while leveling up to 18. Then it begins to taper off. And this is what most people know and remember. But then they gain a huge boost again when geared up and destiny'd up. And this is what, by far, the most people have not experienced.

Again, like I said earlier, I'm not saying they're ubah dps, when you compare to furyshot and blitz. But your above statement reinforces my point about most people (even knowledgeable forumfolk like yourself) not knowing what an artificer is capable of.

I have to jump in here for a sec - Loriac is like the final word on arties. He's an encyclopedia of tested abilities on arties.

At level 12, the best repeater an artie can have is the GS Lit II. DPS-wise, that's:

1.5[1-12]
1-6 (good)
1-6 (lightning)

+ int buff ~+13 (could be higher)
+ 7 weapon (+5+2 mechanic)

= 10+3.5+3.5+13+7=37

+ crits=

+3-18 (good)
+1-10 (lightning)
+ (base)+(int)+(weapon)X2=26.5X2=53

crit total = 10.5+5.5+53=69

Assuming 1 is a miss and 17-20 are crits:

(15X37)+(4X53) / 20 = 38.5

+Lit II crit = 9.15/shot (although, it's more like overkill once, then nothing...)

= 47.65X2 = 95 (assuming 2 bolts/second)

I ignored 20's and things like Ring of the Stalker, past lives, seeker, which all bump it up a bit. And you can add in rune arm, which is, at this level, around 2-8 damage.

The point is, you're still pretty hard pressed, at 12th level to reach 250 dps soley on the xbow. Arties still have, of course, spells and rune arms.

On my 25th level artie, I'm pretty sure I reach around or over 700 dps - but that adds in boulder toss, adrenaline, primal scream, rune arm - more if you count spells. And I'm using a tier 3 alchemical, which produces a ridiculous amount of damage.

You are invited to show how I'm incorrect here - or how I can improve my damage out put! That would be nice