Aren't artificers a bit over-powered?

[Loriac]

Niac's cold ray: lvl 1 spell, at lvl 4:
WF sorc (for selfheals): cha: 16 base, 1 lvl up point, +1 item (we're talking bout general here, not top notch 500 PL's cus that would qualify for arti too), +1 tome maybe and +1 enhancements? Assume 20 cha: 5 modifier in this case.

10 + spell level (1) + 5 + 1 feat if u have. If u wanna assume 3 sorc PL's an arti can also assume 3 ranger/monk PL's for +27 damage a shot.

Niacs is conjuration not evocation. My sorc at that time was human, not WF.

Cha: 18 + 1 level + 1 tome + 3 item + 1 enhancement = 24, for +7

Most sorcs should take SF:conjuration at level 1, with a view to swap it out for evoc at around level 6 (if going anything other than earth savant).

DC: 17 at it's max, meaning even a 0 reflex mob will save it at a 17 roll, assume mobs have 3 reflex, orange nameds have 5 reflex? Maybe 7

DC 19, and ogres have bad reflex saves. I think I may even have had heighten, but its a while now so I can't remember the feat order (first feats were SF:conj, Maximise, then probably heighten - I don't tend to take toughness or empower until later).

Because of that, you need to divide the niacs damage by almost 2 for oranges, and 1.5 for others. Because arti's oneshot trash hat means they are 33% more effective as that is the amount they onehitkill an enemy more while vs orange nameds the arti 3-shots and 'in general' the sorc will 2-shot

Not my recollection tbh, but ymmv.

These are all raw assumptions, that if niacs would hit 250 at lvl 4 without meta's, which is already an untrue statement to begin with, because that would require (niacs has 50 max damage) 500 cold spell power on a lvl 4, if you are lucky to hit the max * 5... I didn't even see lvl 25's hit that without meta's

You could try reading what I wrote - the 200-250 I was stating was with maximised on. I suspect thinking back that this toon was before the spellpower changes were made, and I could certainly accept that the raw damage on the current game is closer to 160-180 non crit. At level 4 you can be casting at level 5 with lesser arcane augmentation (veteran status gear).

Btw, the way that works is:

150 (maximise) + 50 (enhancements) + 40ish (items) = 240, so 3.4x 50 = 170damage (without even needing to empower the bolt). On crits, you're looking at 300+ damage.

I'm getting the idea you have no clue what you're talking about, but I can tell you this:
I duo'd 5/6th (split in the end) life on my TR as sorc with a guildie arti, and until lvl 6ish he was 3 times as useful I was, then he was 1.5 times as useful, and by the time I hit lvl 10-12 I was easily useful, growing more and more useful compared to him at higher lvls

If by useful you mean he could do traps, then sure, he was more useful. That utility doesn't make the arty more powerful however (in my opinion).


Edit: this side discussion of sorc vs. arty is missing the point really. Even on TR3 you hit level 6 within hours of play.

If I was to summarise my experiences of sorc and arty based on having played about 5 lives worth of both classes to cap, it would be:

i. I find artys more fun than sorcs, as they have more things they can do
ii. Solo, artys can complete everything (and more) a sorc can, but its a lot slower
iii. Sorcs really shine when you need to put out obscene amounts of damage quickly
iv. If you have the gear, your low level sorc can be ridiculously overpowered - in particular, the vibrant purple ioun stone is a game changer for a level 5 sorc, you can throw meta'd nukes around without really caring about sp conservation at all

I actually much prefer the arty from a playstyle perspective, but I definitely see them being weak on burst damage, and also on consistent damage vs. other classes at high level.

This thread seems intended to ask for a nerf for artys, and I don't think thats warranted. There is also no point investing time and effort into 'balancing' the low level game, as you can steamroll through it on pretty much anything. At endgame, I doubt anyone would seriously suggest that artys are overpowered. The OP basically hasn't played an arty at that level, and yet is asking for the class to be nerfed (by implication rather than directly coming out and saying it).

[Sonos]

Niacs is conjuration not evocation. My sorc at that time was human, not WF.

Cha: 18 + 1 level + 1 tome + 3 item + 1 enhancement = 24, for +7

Most sorcs should take SF:conjuration at level 1, with a view to swap it out for evoc at around level 6 (if going anything other than earth savant).



DC 19, and ogres have bad reflex saves. I think I may even have had heighten, but its a while now so I can't remember the feat order (first feats were SF:conj, Maximise, then probably heighten - I don't tend to take toughness or empower until later).

Heighten?

<_< >_> <_< :/



Edit: If you can afford 50 extra SP every niac, then I'll agree Sorc's are more powerful at lower levels. For persistent and sustained dmg, the Arti wins (again, at lower levels)

[keveniaftw]

Niacs is conjuration not evocation. My sorc at that time was human, not WF.

Cha: 18 + 1 level + 1 tome + 3 item + 1 enhancement = 24, for +7

Most sorcs should take SF:conjuration at level 1, with a view to swap it out for evoc at around level 6 (if going anything other than earth savant).



DC 19, and ogres have bad reflex saves. I think I may even have had heighten, but its a while now so I can't remember the feat order (first feats were SF:conj, Maximise, then probably heighten - I don't tend to take toughness or empower until later).



Not my recollection tbh, but ymmv.



You could try reading what I wrote - the 200-250 I was stating was with maximised on. I suspect thinking back that this toon was before the spellpower changes were made, and I could certainly accept that the raw damage on the current game is closer to 160-180 non crit. At level 4 you can be casting at level 5 with lesser arcane augmentation (veteran status gear).

Btw, the way that works is:

150 (maximise) + 50 (enhancements) + 40ish (items) = 240, so 3.4x 50 = 170damage (without even needing to empower the bolt). On crits, you're looking at 300+ damage.



If by useful you mean he could do traps, then sure, he was more useful. That utility doesn't make the arty more powerful however (in my opinion).


Edit: this side discussion of sorc vs. arty is missing the point really. Even on TR3 you hit level 6 within hours of play.

If I was to summarise my experiences of sorc and arty based on having played about 5 lives worth of both classes to cap, it would be:

i. I find artys more fun than sorcs, as they have more things they can do
ii. Solo, artys can complete everything (and more) a sorc can, but its a lot slower
iii. Sorcs really shine when you need to put out obscene amounts of damage quickly
iv. If you have the gear, your low level sorc can be ridiculously overpowered - in particular, the vibrant purple ioun stone is a game changer for a level 5 sorc, you can throw meta'd nukes around without really caring about sp conservation at all

I actually much prefer the arty from a playstyle perspective, but I definitely see them being weak on burst damage, and also on consistent damage vs. other classes at high level.

This thread seems intended to ask for a nerf for artys, and I don't think thats warranted. There is also no point investing time and effort into 'balancing' the low level game, as you can steamroll through it on pretty much anything. At endgame, I doubt anyone would seriously suggest that artys are overpowered. The OP basically hasn't played an arty at that level, and yet is asking for the class to be nerfed (by implication rather than directly coming out and saying it).

If it is conjuration, sorry, but no sorc apart from earth savant take conjuration as most spells will be evocation either way.

If you are talking about crits, then you need to add crits to artificers too of course...

Artificer at low lvl is more useful, not only in traps but because he kills faster, way faster. Oneshotting all mobs with crossbow, mass damage with runearm on groups of mobs, damage boost on boss, whereass bosses will far more easily save that niacs...

[Loriac]

If it is conjuration, sorry, but no sorc apart from earth savant take conjuration as most spells will be evocation either way.

A good tactic is to take SF:conjuration at level 1, and swap it out with Fred at level 5 just before you level up to 6 if you're going to take Fire or Air savant. Its helpful for Niacs during those levels.

A water savant in fact has a good argument for keeping it at level 6 too, as it helps the SLA.

Heighten?

<_< >_> <_< :/



Edit: If you can afford 50 extra SP every niac, then I'll agree Sorc's are more powerful at lower levels. For persistent and sustained dmg, the Arti wins (again, at lower levels)

Heighten is something I take to max out the tier 1 SLA. Basically, you get a heightened, maximised niacs bolstered by SF:conj which will serve you well into levels 9-10 as a trash killer. And obviously as its an SLA, you're casting it for virtually no sp.

[Zenako]

In a world where SP pots are not commonly used, I find my Sorc's running lean on SP way too quickly in many runs if they try to dominate and slaughter everything, while my Arti's can be cranking at full throttle from start to finish most times.

So really part of this discussion goes way beyond mere class max capacity but also to what other game features enable certain styles of play. Cheap SP pots make the peak output of sorc plausible to maintain for as long as one wants to chug pots. There is no equivalent mechanism to enable an Arti to stay on boost/fusillade full time (just like AA would dominate if they had 24/7 Manyshot abilities in most content.)

[SealedInSong]

the bard / arti comparison thing is a bit off kilter suffers from (a) the metagame and (b) 4-5 extra feats.
(...snip...)

do not nerf artificers. They are not a problem.

Do boost some of the others. Fix bard songs and their stacking/overlapping. Expand the range of bard songs (at least for buffs). Make them faster, or make them work if you were in the zone at any time. Boost the check on enthrall to scale w/ eds (not a linear check, maybe give it a cap). Consider giving both a pass on glancing blow damage. Give bards more song options.

+1

[Wulverine]

I'll agree there's not alot of solo EE from arti's posted on the forums. But I know I havent found it that difficult to solo a majority of the EE content on my arti. I have all of eveningstar and all the walk ups of GH, while having duoed the 3 big quests.

I find that the class to work very very well in EE content. But it is disappointing that even a 1oo% DC focused arti cant really get to the point where the rune arm shows a majority of failed saves for full damage. My iniatal thought with the destinies was to twist in all the +DC stuff. But getting up to a 53 just wasnt worth the investment, so I've since settled down with a different setup. The nice thing tho is that even crits when enemies make the save are fairly decent damage.

If this is an endgame thread, then I dont think its really a class versus class comparison. Its more about the differences between the destinies. VERY VERY FEW things can compare to a Fury+Manyshot combo, a blitz running on full charges, or a shiradi caster with the super buff. Theres nothing else ingame that really has the same oomph as any of those 3.

With that said. Even if blitz or fury played along better with artificers I dont think I could leave shiradi. I just would not be able to give up having Energy Burst + Pin + Whistler + cocoon.

I would like to see more desirable epic moments in quite a few of the destinies. Tea with the Queen on a noncaster is a nice defensive buff, but the best it gets offensively is the +stats. Plus +5 to/hit damage thru stats for five minutes compared to +25o% damage buff that can be kept up indefinitely isnt even in the same ballpark

Fully agree with shadowsteel here. This has been my experience as well.

[Singular]

i. I find artys more fun than sorcs, as they have more things they can do
ii. Solo, artys can complete everything (and more) a sorc can, but its a lot slower
iii. Sorcs really shine when you need to put out obscene amounts of damage quickly
iv. If you have the gear, your low level sorc can be ridiculously overpowered - in particular, the vibrant purple ioun stone is a game changer for a level 5 sorc, you can throw meta'd nukes around without really caring about sp conservation at all

First, you're correct in that there's no point in nerfing arties. Yes, they rock at low levels, but they're a struggle to get good enough to contribute in EE content. That's been said enough.

Second, the Crystal Cove's Greater Cunning Trinket bests the Ioun stone - 50 sp + lesser maximize (so 100 sp on a sorc).

[Loriac]

Second, the Crystal Cove's Greater Cunning Trinket bests the Ioun stone - 50 sp + lesser maximize (so 100 sp on a sorc).

Unsuppressed vibrant purple gives archmagi at level 5, so 400sp for a pure sorc. This trashes the cunning trinket until you're able to slot at least wiz VI elsewhere, at which point the lesser maximise may be worth slotting in.

I think you may have been thinking of the suppressed version, which is ML2 and gives 30 sp (60 for sorcs)

[Singular]

Unsuppressed vibrant purple gives archmagi at level 5, so 400sp for a pure sorc. This trashes the cunning trinket until you're able to slot at least wiz VI elsewhere, at which point the lesser maximise may be worth slotting in.

I think you may have been thinking of the suppressed version, which is ML2 and gives 30 sp (60 for sorcs)

Wow, ok. Yes, I was thinking of the suppressed version.

****! I'm sure I sold one of those on the AH cheap!

[HungarianRhapsody]

Wow, ok. Yes, I was thinking of the suppressed version.

****! I'm sure I sold one of those on the AH cheap!

They used to be one of two most expensive items in all of DDO because they were as rare as hen's teeth while still being exceptionally useful and powerful.

Today, they actually are pretty cheap because they drop like candy from the Dreaming Dark end quest. Even on Casual.

[Singular]

They used to be one of two most expensive items in all of DDO because they were as rare as hen's teeth while still being exceptionally useful and powerful.

Today, they actually are pretty cheap because they drop like candy from the Dreaming Dark end quest. Even on Casual.

Huh, cool. Maybe I'll buy it back

[LongshotBro]

On my third life as arti now, and I'd say OP is partially correct. My first thought is, yes, jack of all trades but master of none is oft times better than master of one...during heroic content. And then only when you get skilled at doing five things simultaneously and changing tactics constantly while moving around A LOT. Honestly though, as you near 20 the feeling of superiority you enjoyed begins to taper off. You run out of SP more often trying to keep up, and buff/heal the party more often.
All that being said though, OP is correct about access to so many thimgs. But keep in mind the class must be earned or bought, so it has to have those incentives. Essentially it is a great class to solo with, and higher level parties like the unusual buffs. In fact, I've noticed while PUGging that ypu can find groups pretty easily, and no one is really sure what you're supposed to do, so if you keep up and contribute they're pleasantly surprised.

[Netrelious]

they are very op
can solo hard quests without much effort

[Singular]

they are very op
can solo hard quests without much effort

Doing quests on Hard solo is not really a measure of OP.

[Sonos]

they are very op
can solo hard quests without much effort

Then all classes are OP :P

[psykopeta]

artificers at heroic lvls are op, the damage output(mainly at low lvls) is insane

once you toon gets closer to lvl 20 there are 2 choices:

dc based - useless in EE(well, can buff party and heal WF rofl), not in EH, every first lifer toon can solo EH (think about Heroic Hard)

juggernaut - hope you have the gear and the ED's recquired too, if not you won't be able to solo it(but you'll be melee so can be useful yet lol)

so when you say: aren't artificers OP? i'll say yes, like wiz pm, WF sorc, druid caster, fvs, clr and... rest of classes at heroic lvls

hey they're OP IMHO, because i only care about lvling and tr'ing, don't care about "endgame", if you care about endgame the artis aren't op

[SirValentine]

The problem here is not with Artificer per se.

It's with the fact that the Repeater X-Bow even without being feated up for it is INSANE compared to the other choices you have on that build!

What I thought was a big part of it was all the ways you can buff the repeater damage. Those add up fast at low levels.

Base damage
Prefix
Suffix
Elemental Weapons buff
Runearm Imbue

All x3.

An Arti with a repeater is awesome ranged DPS at low level, and still respectable at higher level.

[FranOhmsford]

1. NOT Every first life lifer can solo Epic Hard!

2. I am one of those first Lifers who can't solo Epic Hard {My Battle Cleric, My Barb, My Trapper - No chance! - My Monk = Possibly NOW he's Lvl 23 and Full GMoF!}.

3. I've Played EVERY Class from Lvl 1-12 at least!

4. Arti is the ONLY Class I've had NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER Soloing Elites with BB {Full Streak!}.
My First Arti was the FIRST Character I took into Swiped Signet on Elite SOLO at Level and wiped the floor with said quest!


I'm reading talk about Vibrant Purple Ioun Stones - Most Players don't have these AND they have nothing to do with Class anyway!

Carnifex is Pretty Rare and generally Not available to First Lifers without a Multitude of Alts! - I have 1 between 24 Characters on Cannith {All have completed Deleras - Some Multiple times!}.

Maelstrom is from a Lvl 10 Raid!
And doesn't drop as a regular occurence either!

Again these are NOT Class Abilities!

There are PLENTY of Items in this game that make things much easier BUT this Thread is about Class NOT Gear!



Now I am NOT asking for a Nerf to Artis!
I like Arti a lot!
I was HOWEVER extremely disappointed with Druid after Arti! - Druids to me seem severely Under-Powered compared to Artis!
And I'm comparing these two classes because they're both New and P2P {Lol at House C Favour!}.

I've personally always had problems leveling up Sorcs and Souls - Never got a Pure of either past Lvl 14 {Never got a Pure Sorc past Lvl 8 {Stoned to 16 and not played since}!


I'm looking for the Devs to BOOST the likes of Paladins, Rangers, Bards, Clerics, Barbarians and Druids!
So they're No Longer Second Class Citizens!

And Personally I Hate the Idea that Epic is the ONLY Difficulty! {I'm even more against Epic Elite being the ONLY Difficulty!}.
I want Classes to be Playable throughout the Game NOT just in their Ultimate Destiny!

And as such I would love to see:

1. Sorcs able to Play the SAME Savant from Lvl 1-25 {No swapping from Ice to Fire to Earth {Blackbones} to Ice or Electric {End Game}.

2. Pale Masters get their Summons Fixed!
Also - Lose Zombie, Vamp and Lich Form - Give Wraith Form 3 Tiers!

3. FavSouls get their OTHER Prestiges {Same as Rangers, Barbs, Clerics!}.

4. And as for Races -
- WF need Buffing as Melees! {Keep the Buffs Melee Based though!}.
- Elves, Dwarves, Drow and Halflings need Buffing FULL STOP!
- Add in Gnomes and Kobolds please!


Oh and I've got Friends {yes I know - unlikely though that may seem} who are adamantly of the opinion {Paranoid in my view} that Rogue Mech is about to be removed.
They Play {and adore} their Rogue Mech/Artis! {One is 13/7 +5 Epic and in Fatesinger, the other has just brought his out of Mothballs and is 6/6 atm.},

I also have - Sylveria - 15 Mech / 3 Arti / 2 Ftr / 1 Epic {and no she's not capable of soloing Epic Hards - Or EVEN Epic Normals as yet BUT that's more the player and lack of gear than the Build!}.
I'm not playing her at the moment because I'm running with said friends and she's superfluous to the group!

If the Devs are considering removing Rogue Mech I'd like to say that this would be an absolutely TERRIBLE idea!
Much Better to add Tier III and Tier II & III of Battle Engineer!

[Sonos]

I'm reading talk about Vibrant Purple Ioun Stones - Most Players don't have these AND they have nothing to do with Class anyway!

Most of your post made sense, the rest was tl;dr but this I found odd. Archmagi is for ANY class with a blue bar. And most players that TR casters enough DO actually have a vibrant purple.