Epic Gianthold - Return to Gianthold Tor

[SqueakofDoom]

This thread is for discussing the Epic Gianthold quest: Return to Gianthold Tor!

[4tonmantis]

Played through last night EH on my level 21 (FoTW 2) Bardbarian.
Mobs felt like heroic mobs with more HP and Epic Ward (that didn't block FoD). please realize I was on a 21 in a 25 quest
Black Dragon fight was super annoying b/c of Giant's ability to knock whole party across room. Wasn't harder just very annoying.
The change to last part seems more solo friendly..better for shortman too.
Chests were dropping heroic Relics instead of Epic.
End Rewards were ML 1 and 2.

My thoughts are, give the mobs something like DR or fire giants all have fire shield or they have a small chance to stomp/knockdown.. anything really.. They need a subtle touch to make them more interesting.. currently they are just higher HP versions of the Heroic.

[Grosbeak07]

Did this on Casual with a Level 21 Druid, who was not all that geared out and is just starting Destinies.

The quest plays through near exactly to the current heroic version, with a few minor changes.

1. You no longer have to pull the levers at the same time to open the end fight
2. The end fight has changed away from that whole stand in the box thing.

Both changes I approve of. The end fight was better, thematically fit and wasn't hard to figure out. Only thing I'd like to see changed is a shrine once you complete the main quests (like there is on live).

Only did the Blue Dragon, way to the Blue Dragon was unchanged... only change to Blue Dragon fight was the addition of some air elementals, which I think is a cheap way to add some challenge, as you can't bunch the Dragon and Giant as easily next to the barrier, as you frequently get knocked down onto the gold. This wasn't bad on casual, but I could see it being a pain on Elite perhaps, with the knockdowns occurring more frequently.

XP Seemed about what I would expect, would like to see more xp for the Dragon optionals as they remain proportionally more difficult than the quest itself.

Didn't find any bugs or stuck spots, I really wasn't expecting many since this is a long established quest. Some of the Giant AI was slow, but this is a problem that is not limited to Tor.

Overall I see myself running this quest fairly frequently.

[Lycurgus]

Played through last night EH on my level 21 (FoTW 2) Bardbarian.
Mobs felt like heroic mobs with more HP and Epic Ward (that didn't block FoD).

Ward is, however, preventing mass hold on the giants.

[arkonas]

ok as for the black dragon. did everyone forget how to stand against the barrier so he doesnt knock you back? just wondering. that fight was easy for me and another caster. black can add acid type earth elementals.

the blue dragon fight was awesome. i love the air elementals. yes it does add challenges because they knock you into the gold. for the white dragon was expecting water elementals.

i like the box method was taken away in this return. it was fun to see the skeletions popping up with trash and the giant.

i had fun. granted only ran it on normal.

[Full_Bleed]

1. You no longer have to pull the levers at the same time to open the end fight
2. The end fight has changed away from that whole stand in the box thing.

As someone who just ran this quest for the first time a few weeks ago, I'm not sure why this is an improvement. Is the purpose just to make these epic quests more soloable? I really don't understand why that is a good thing in an MMO. Figuring out how to do those things and splitting the party was one of the more interesting parts of the adventure.

Not looking forward to the air elementals.

[sephiroth1084]

Air elementals are stupid. Adding them to increase the difficulty of a fight is stupid and lazy.

[Vellrad]

Ward is, however, preventing mass hold on the giants.

On live, in Tor, giants got this effect, its not DW, they just didn't desing new icon. Its fom, protection from poison and something else.

[sirgog]

Went in solo on a 25 Bard in fairly good but not extraordinary gear. (Spellsinger, Draconic Incarnation 5, gear chosen to support this somewhat). Solo, epic normal.

The trash generally felt like EH trash except for the hill giants (which felt like EN). This won't be an issue in a group as EH trash is only on-par with the difficulty of heroic normal trash.

I liked the changes to the end fight. I'd always felt the Gatekeeper fight was boring and a letdown - the replacement fight was impressive. Need to run it EE in a good group to get a better feel for it, however I did notice that the giant skeletons have too short a leash in the final fight. I caused them to leash more than once without intending too.

As for the dragons - I was a silly boy and forgot to pack a Deathblock item, and made the mistake of taking on the White dragon first. Dispel Magic strips my GH and Visor-cast Deathward, Destruction kills me. Oops. It's Lamannia so I use a store cheat to self-raise, get up and die again to Destruction quickly. The dragon and giant reset upon having no foes alive in their room too. At this point I was out of time.

I'm happy to wipe on a first attempt at a difficult optional encounter when I go in carelessly, and I'm sure soloing the encounter will not be overly hard if I make more of an effort to prepare for soloing. I'd just suggest a warning 'Extreme challenge, we recommend 3+ players and a balanced party' and remove the death spells on casual difficulty (if they are cast there now).

[Jitty]

Elite TOR is too easy. Good group of 5 with no divine breezed through. There were deaths but they were from people rolling ones on hold monster.

[sephiroth1084]

Air elementals are stupid. Adding them to increase the difficulty of a fight is stupid and lazy.

Neg rep for this? Did I get a devs' panties in a twist?

Air elementals have never been especially enjoyable in DDO (discounting that brief period where they were broken and stopped knocking people around). When asked about their least favorite monsters to face in DDO, most people have air elementals in their top 3, if not number 1. They have wonky mechanics (make your save, but still get tossed around, save doesn't always even do what its supposed to, effects that are supposed to render one immune to their abilities don't, and they are super-spammy with knockdown, knockback, no-save Haste-immune Slow, and blowing out persistent spell effects even when doing so makes no sense).

And they've been the go-to for the devs when they want to make something more challenging without putting any effort in for years.

• Reaver's Fate too easy? Take out the fire and earth elementals, and replace them with air elementals.
• Still too easy? Put MORE air eles in there, and give them ridiculous saves.
• Upgrade Chains of Flame to epic and want to make it harder? Add more air elementals! Especially near traps and narrow walkways.
• End fight of A New Invasion a little too easy, even with the damage and chaining, and explosions? I KNOW! Add air elementals!
• Party grouping up off of the trapped gold in the blue dragon room? You could change the layout of the room, or mechanics of the fight... C'mon! Who are we kidding? ADD AIR ELEMENTALS! No one will every see that coming!

And that list is just a drop in the air elemental filled bucket.

[Brattyone]

Neg rep for this? Did I get a devs' panties in a twist?

Air elementals have never been especially enjoyable in DDO (discounting that brief period where they were broken and stopped knocking people around). When asked about their least favorite monsters to face in DDO, most people have air elementals in their top 3, if not number 1. They have wonky mechanics (make your save, but still get tossed around, save doesn't always even do what its supposed to, effects that are supposed to render one immune to their abilities don't, and they are super-spammy with knockdown, knockback, no-save Haste-immune Slow, and blowing out persistent spell effects even when doing so makes no sense).

And they've been the go-to for the devs when they want to make something more challenging without putting any effort in for years.

• Reaver's Fate too easy? Take out the fire and earth elementals, and replace them with air elementals.
• Still too easy? Put MORE air eles in there, and give them ridiculous saves.
• Upgrade Chains of Flame to epic and want to make it harder? Add more air elementals! Especially near traps and narrow walkways.
• End fight of A New Invasion a little too easy, even with the damage and chaining, and explosions? I KNOW! Add air elementals!
• Party grouping up off of the trapped gold in the blue dragon room? You could change the layout of the room, or mechanics of the fight... C'mon! Who are we kidding? ADD AIR ELEMENTALS! No one will every see that coming!

And that list is just a drop in the air elemental filled bucket.

I gave you a +1 for this not because I agree with you, although I do, but because it was well said and listed several examples. I have often wondered why devs have chosen to go this route when the majority of the players do list air elementals as being one of the top most annoying/disliked monsters. I wonder though what suggestions players might have to increase difficulty. I don't like the addition of air elementals nor do I like just beefing up mob hp, but I'm not sure how I'd change it.

I really enjoyed not having to turn both levers at once, since I tend to solo a lot, and I really liked the end fight much better than the heroic version because it was different. It wasn't just the same fight with higher hp. I also caused one of the giant skellies to leash but really didn't have a problem when it did.

I went in on EN with a capped ranger with mostly mediocre gear, had summoned my panther expecting to need him for the levers, and breezed through. I had only a few minutes to run this quest so I didn't get to the dragons unfortunately. When I was done, the end rewards list offered +1 loot, which was disappointing. And as of yet, I haven't seen one epic chest in any of the Epic Gianthold quests.

[shadereaper33]

I gave you a +1 for this not because I agree with you, although I do, but because it was well said and listed several examples. I have often wondered why devs have chosen to go this route when the majority of the players do list air elementals as being one of the top most annoying/disliked monsters. I wonder though what suggestions players might have to increase difficulty. I don't like the addition of air elementals nor do I like just beefing up mob hp, but I'm not sure how I'd change it.

I really enjoyed not having to turn both levers at once, since I tend to solo a lot, and I really liked the end fight much better than the heroic version because it was different. It wasn't just the same fight with higher hp. I also caused one of the giant skellies to leash but really didn't have a problem when it did.

I went in on EN with a capped ranger with mostly mediocre gear, had summoned my panther expecting to need him for the levers, and breezed through. I had only a few minutes to run this quest so I didn't get to the dragons unfortunately. When I was done, the end rewards list offered +1 loot, which was disappointing. And as of yet, I haven't seen one epic chest in any of the Epic Gianthold quests.

A few ideas off the top of my head to make the dragon fights harder without using air elementals:
1-Give the dragon a breath attack that gives the players an elemental weakness curse to that element if they are hit by it. Same effect as the air savant tier 2 curse effect.
2-Give the dragon and the giant some sort of aura effect that makes them much stronger if they are near to each other. Perhaps, add a stacking bonus to melee and spell damage if the two are within a certain radius of each of other. This would encourage groups to separate the two to kill them, without actually requiring the separation.
3-Replace the blue barrier in each of the dragon rooms with a high damage trap wall of that dragons element. Have the wall basically trigger an AoE effect that deals the appropriate typed damage to anyone standing near the wall every 10-15 seconds or so. Would be a good combo with #1

[Machination]

I had to laugh because every single word is so true! Air elementals are the easy button that gets pushed just a little too often.

Neg rep for this? Did I get a devs' panties in a twist?

Air elementals have never been especially enjoyable in DDO (discounting that brief period where they were broken and stopped knocking people around). When asked about their least favorite monsters to face in DDO, most people have air elementals in their top 3, if not number 1. They have wonky mechanics (make your save, but still get tossed around, save doesn't always even do what its supposed to, effects that are supposed to render one immune to their abilities don't, and they are super-spammy with knockdown, knockback, no-save Haste-immune Slow, and blowing out persistent spell effects even when doing so makes no sense).

And they've been the go-to for the devs when they want to make something more challenging without putting any effort in for years.

• Reaver's Fate too easy? Take out the fire and earth elementals, and replace them with air elementals.
• Still too easy? Put MORE air eles in there, and give them ridiculous saves.
• Upgrade Chains of Flame to epic and want to make it harder? Add more air elementals! Especially near traps and narrow walkways.
• End fight of A New Invasion a little too easy, even with the damage and chaining, and explosions? I KNOW! Add air elementals!
• Party grouping up off of the trapped gold in the blue dragon room? You could change the layout of the room, or mechanics of the fight... C'mon! Who are we kidding? ADD AIR ELEMENTALS! No one will every see that coming!

And that list is just a drop in the air elemental filled bucket.

[sephiroth1084]

I wonder though what suggestions players might have to increase difficulty.

There are a lot of ways to increase difficulty without resorting to air elemental cheese.

• Give the dragon a wing buffet that it can only use occasionally. This causes similar havoc to what an air elemental does, but occurs less frequently, isn't spammy, and players can position themselves to minimize the danger of this.
• Create more safe zones out in the gold, and rescript the dragon and/or giant to move around a bit, forcing players to go after them, and risk running on the gold, but also provide additional locations for players to stand. Again, some tactical positioning can lessen the danger here.
• Have the electricity heal the dragon for a fair chunk of HP--players have to choose between standing in a safe zone and fighting with rather large "regen" on the dragon, or their own HP damage while being able to take the dragon down faster. Again, tactics.
• Give the dragon or giant Telekinesis that they use occasionally (about the same frequency that Lailat or a Beholder would). Again, not spammy, and is resistible, while creating some of the same chaos as an air elemental.
• Change the electric trap to move its targeted location around randomly, but with some sort of indication as to where it will strike. Players paying attention will move around the area to avoid getting zapped. Increase the per-shot damage of the trap to make up for its being less spammy, and a little more avoidable. Maybe section of the room begin to glow and spark with a build-up of static electricity for a moment or two before a charge fires off. I'm thinking this would be more like the end fight of A New Invasion (tells before big dangerous traps go off, forcing the party to move, but without the overly punitive penalty for a party splitting up for even a second, and without the dull ring-around-with-Rosey) than like the build-up of charges in The Reaver's Fate, but something similar to that could work as well. Heck, using the exact same mechanic as can be found in The Reaver would give new players a chance to learn about the charges in a non-raid setting before heading in there (for this to be relevant, the heroic dragon fight would need to be changed).

The only real problem with the white dragon fight is that we have Freedom of Movement. It gets dispelled, sure, but can be equipped, and can be reapplied fairly easily once you're doing this on epic, which makes the most unique part of this fight totally irrelevant. I'd say, something should be done about that, but I don't know what.


For the black dragon fight, I'd replace the blue barrier with a curved section of wall, making it more difficult (but not impossible) to stay on that island when the giant does his slam. I'd also probably reduce the damage from the acid lake a little, but have it add a poison effect with a high-ish DC that causes a Slow effect.

[Tid12]

Oh no, Air Elementals? Really? I can't stand them, even on my immune-to-knockdown Air savant.

I wonder if it was always a Flimsy's idea. I heard he did an awesome job with Fall of Truth so he MUST have some great ideas in his head so I ask, WHY OH WHY Air Elementals?

[Ryiah]

As someone who just ran this quest for the first time a few weeks ago, I'm not sure why this is an improvement. Is the purpose just to make these epic quests more soloable? I really don't understand why that is a good thing in an MMO. Figuring out how to do those things and splitting the party was one of the more interesting parts of the adventure.

Because, at least in the Heroic portion, it is a very boring sit and wait game. You can still solo it quite easily by putting a hireling in the other side and telling them to sit there (Passive/Don't Move) and occasionally clicking their Heal button. You don't even need to kill anything.

I'm all for encouraging group play, but only if done with actually good mechanics. Nothing boring that makes at least two of the members sit in one spot and wait.

[phalaeo]

Went through on Epic Normal 2x with my husband, him on his WF Wiz, and me on my melee Bard.

Was tons of fun! I like the air eles... they're pests that do make it harder to coordinate giant/dragon deaths, but they don't do a ton of damage. Nice balance- they weren't constantly knocking us down, which was cool. That said, we were on EN and they're probably a nightmare on EE.

I say totally good job. You took one of my favourite quests in the game and made it fun for endgamers.

[arjiwan]

There are a lot of ways to increase difficulty without resorting to air elemental cheese.

But, that involves a lot of work! Air elementals it is! Vroom Vroom!


I agree with your points, I would've +1 you but I need to spread around.

[sirgog]

Oh no, Air Elementals? Really? I can't stand them, even on my immune-to-knockdown Air savant.

I wonder if it was always a Flimsy's idea. I heard he did an awesome job with Fall of Truth so he MUST have some great ideas in his head so I ask, WHY OH WHY Air Elementals?

There's air elementals in Fall as well, summoned by one of the minibosses.

IMO they make the raid more exciting as you have moments where quick reactions really matter. They aren't very durable even on EE. Interestingly they are immune to Everything is Nothing but not really to anything else.